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The "zoning" myth vs. the reality of pro-level skill

Marlow

Premium Supporter
Premium Supporter
But to me, simultaneously building meter off of chip damage from said projectiles is a bit much
One thing I wanted to circle back on regarding this point, is that a lot of the projectiles in Injustice 2 are highs. The opponent can usually duck and avoid taking chip, so the person doing the zoning simply gets the meter build from the special move. This generally comes at the cost of giving up space, or sometimes taking a step back or two. The projectiles that do hit mid or overhead typically have more startup or recovery as a way to balance it out, so the opponent can have more time to react. Not saying it's perfectly balanced every time, but it's not like every single zoner is able to build meter off chip.

Edit: To add on, I think characters like Deadshot and Aquaman, early in the game, were good examples of where building meter off of chip could be too strong. They've been balanced, and since then we've seen a much more fair playing field, at least in terms of higher competative play.
 
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Cobainevermind87

Mid-match beer sipper
One thing I wanted to circle back on regarding this point, is that a lot of the projectiles in Injustice 2 are highs. The opponent can usually duck and avoid taking chip, so the person doing the zoning simply gets the meter build from the special move. This generally comes at the cost of giving up space, or sometimes taking a step back or two. The projectiles that do hit mid or overhead typically have more startup or recovery as a way to balance it out, so the opponent can have more time to react. Not saying it's perfectly balanced every time, but it's not like every single zoner is able to build meter off chip.
Yes. I don't play much I2, I'm not big on DC and I'm an MK guy at heart. So I can't speak too much about I2, but I do know there are a good bit that can't be simply neutral crouched. Same as in MKX. I remember BA's ground bolts used to drive me nuts. MB it to build half a bar right back. But yeah anyways when I say these things, I'm thinking more about Shinnok's hellsparks, cybernetic's knives are no joke, mournful's mid-air glaive throw, Quan's runes (particularly summoner), HQT pred, etc. Depending on who you play, you could very well end up having to make due with only generating half the meter, maybe less, than they generate throughout the match.

I'm not bitching. I know a good chunk of the roster myself, so I see this from both sides of the meter-building issue. I don't think it's right when I'm playing Sektor firing off a bunch of rockets, building a literal metric FUCKton of meter from uprocket chip alone, against a Johnny/Bo/Kotal player who just wants to get in to get the chance to get their game going, but when/if they finally do, nope. I've already built a breaker and then some. Back to full screen with you, back to zoning and meter building for me. As I said before, I think NRS intended to reward pressure with meter gain upon inflicting chip damage. I think it was too hard/they were too lazy to take it away from projectile chip, so they just left it.

In my eyes:

Zoners should build meter through specials
Rushdowns should build meter through chip (pressure)

As it is now:

Zoners build it through both
 

Obly

Ambiguous world creator
SFV, and the SF series in general, tends to keep things more grounded with their move sets. It leads to fewer OP moves, and heavily favors things like fundamentals. Things like walking/dashing in and out of range, anti-airs, frame traps, hit confirms, and manually putting together blockstrings.

NRS games tend to try and go for more that...craziness factor, I guess I'd call it. They'll try for cool moves or concepts, even if it means there's a higher chance a move ends up OP. This ends up with more moves that end in a capture state, stronger projectiles, stronger teleports, 50/50's, stronger everything in general. Combine that with generally easier execution, and yeah, I see why NRS games can be considered to be easier to go ham and find success with. However, I feel the NRS design also leads to more freedom and creativity among the characters.
Interesting. I hadn't thought about it like this before, but I've always been drawn to the games that push the crazy envelope a bit. I can appreciate the fundamentals and feats of pure technical execution, but the games themselves that really emphasize balance can come off as a bit dry and generic, IMHO. Oh look, another shotokan karateka... oh look, another ninja... oh look, another wrestler... bet you can't guess what their move sets are. No dig on anyone's favorite game, but the 3D fighters have always felt the worst in this respect, even more so than SF.

I respect that NRS is willing to take a chance on variety over balance, breaking the mold and doing what no one else is doing. Who would have thought you could make viable fighters out of a guy who can move faster than thought, a guy who shrinks to microscopic size, or a giant telekinetic gorilla?? Looked at from that perspective, I'm inclined to be more lenient about the inevitable imbalance issues.
 

Obly

Ambiguous world creator
In my eyes:
Zoners should build meter through specials
Rushdowns should build meter through chip (pressure)
It's a good point. I think you'd have a helluva hard time with a lot of characters trying to categorize them into pure archetypes for this purpose, since there seem to be so many characters with a little of everything. But maybe you could do this on a move by move basis.

Either way, right, the greater reward should go to the player taking the greater risk. Standing full-screen and spamming projectiles/hitscans is taking very little risk, so the game shouldn't reward it very much (staying safe is its own reward). It would be nice to see more incentives to stop spamming and take some risks. Still, it's a tricky thing to get right; I wouldn't want to see zoning-heavy characters get crippled, since it obviously does take a lot of skill to do well at high levels.
 

@MylesWright_

I'll be back 3ing
I don't know if SFV is the best example. I feel like Guile and Menat at some distances are as comfortable as Fate is here in Injustice 2. And If I am not mistaken zoner characters like them are even stronger in meta than here in Injustice 2.
They are better in that game but also harder to use and there's more player interaction. Guile wins neutral but at least he's playing it, batman stops the game mid fight to build meter

SFV also has less defensive options so when you get in it matters which isn't the case for everyone in Injustice.
 

HellblazerHawkman

Confused Thanagarian
Something I was just thinking about, a good character is designed with strengths and weakness, right? I feel like a lot of NRS zoners don't really get the weaknesses, on average. Was watching some OG IGAU Superman and he was the epitome of this: strong zoning tools, better in the neutral than most of the cast, and his basic BnB hit for like 45%. I2 Cyborg kind of stands out in this regard
 

Marlow

Premium Supporter
Premium Supporter
Something I was just thinking about, a good character is designed with strengths and weakness, right? I feel like a lot of NRS zoners don't really get the weaknesses, on average. Was watching some OG IGAU Superman and he was the epitome of this: strong zoning tools, better in the neutral than most of the cast, and his basic BnB hit for like 45%. I2 Cyborg kind of stands out in this regard
I think they've done a better job in Injustice 2 of toning that down a bit, both by adjusting characters and by giving more universal options like MB roll. Especially since the patches. There are still characters with strong tools who also have a projectile, but I feel those characters are typically more of a zoning hybrid. Their projectile is typically used more as a harrassment tool or meter build tool, or a way to try and counter zone, than as a pure "I'm gonna zone them to death" strategy.

What do you mean by Injustice 2 Cyborg standing out in that regard? His wakeup is average, his anti-air is weak, he doesn't really have much in the way of mixups other than some really nice plus frame ability in the corner. His normals are stubby, He can get decent damage in the right situations, but he's certainly not a character I'd consider a heavy hitter in the damage department.
 

HellblazerHawkman

Confused Thanagarian
I think they've done a better job in Injustice 2 of toning that down a bit, both by adjusting characters and by giving more universal options like MB roll. Especially since the patches. There are still characters with strong tools who also have a projectile, but I feel those characters are typically more of a zoning hybrid. Their projectile is typically used more as a harrassment tool or meter build tool, or a way to try and counter zone, than as a pure "I'm gonna zone them to death" strategy.

What do you mean by Injustice 2 Cyborg standing out in that regard? His wakeup is average, his anti-air is weak, he doesn't really have much in the way of mixups other than some really nice plus frame ability in the corner. His normals are stubby, He can get decent damage in the right situations, but he's certainly not a character I'd consider a heavy hitter in the damage department.
That's what I mean, Cyborg was just fine from the start. He has weaknesses to counteract his great fullscreen presence. I'll definitely concede that I2 is overall better, especially after all the patches, but I feel like some of the decisions they make would be an obvious problem, and they don't need 15,000 people booing a game at EVO/IPS to realize they should make changes

Which they've actually done now that I think about it. Everyone remember how absurd Starfire originally was before she got nerfed a few weeks later? Couldn't she hit for 400+ meterless or something crazy like that?
 

Marinjuana

Up rock incoming, ETA 5 minutes
Something I was just thinking about, a good character is designed with strengths and weakness, right? I feel like a lot of NRS zoners don't really get the weaknesses, on average. Was watching some OG IGAU Superman and he was the epitome of this: strong zoning tools, better in the neutral than most of the cast, and his basic BnB hit for like 45%. I2 Cyborg kind of stands out in this regard
Well I don't think it's fair to look at their character designs from a game they made 5 years ago.(Damn I'm old.)

Cyborg has gotten hella buffs this game which were generally requested, I think most people agreed that he wasn't that strong at the beginning, but he has weaknesses. They big weakness of his that was buffed was his wakeup game, the addition of cyber sweep did a lot for him there. But he still has some of the worst ranged normals in the game, his frame data has always been awesome but he has Trex arms. His D2 is nothing to write home about either. I really don't think he's a good example for your point.
 

HellblazerHawkman

Confused Thanagarian
Well I don't think it's fair to look at their character designs from a game they made 5 years ago.(Damn I'm old.)

Cyborg has gotten hella buffs this game which were generally requested, I think most people agreed that he wasn't that strong at the beginning, but he has weaknesses. They big weakness of his that was buffed was his wakeup game, the addition of cyber sweep did a lot for him there. But he still has some of the worst ranged normals in the game, his frame data has always been awesome but he has Trex arms. His D2 is nothing to write home about either. I really don't think he's a good example for your point.
That's fair, but they had the right idea with Cyborg, even if it took them a while to get him in a 'competitive place'. They looked at what he did well and designed him to do other things not well to counteract that.
 

Marlow

Premium Supporter
Premium Supporter
That's fair, but they had the right idea with Cyborg, even if it took them a while to get him in a 'competitive place'. They looked at what he did well and designed him to do other things not well to counteract that.
I might be biased because I play Cyborg, but I love the way he's balanced right now. Clear tool kit, obvious strengths and weaknesses, very fundamental zoner.
 

GLoRToR

Positive Poster!
@GLoRToR Thanks, I think I understand where you're coming from.
Much like you don't want to have to deal with mid projectiles that also hit you while airborne coming at you twice a second with pushback and + on block, I don't want to deal with someone full comboing me off of a safe teleport while I'm trying to play honest zoning / footsies.
 

Skedar70

Noob
Another major tournament just ended up and im still here waiting to see this broken and unbeatable zoning that the casuals keep bitching about lmaaaoo

Not sure anybody ever said it was broken or unbeatable. Its just part of the meta and how the game is mostly played. I suggest you look at Tekken masters games to understand what we were talking about. Zoning is prevalent and plentiful in inj 2. Probably what made it so bland and boring.
 

Bruno-NeoSpace

They see me zonin', they hatin'
Not sure anybody ever said it was broken or unbeatable. Its just part of the meta and how the game is mostly played. I suggest you look at Tekken masters games to understand what we were talking about. Zoning is prevalent and plentiful in inj 2. Probably what made it so bland and boring.
Not sure? Read those comments on youtube/twitch videos about Injustice 2.

I saw Tekken Master games and Tweedy were pretty much the only players that used pure zoning characters. He went out of the tournament with a 1-2 score BTW. Tekken Master defeated Biohazard but Hayatei bodied him.
 

Cobainevermind87

Mid-match beer sipper
Not sure? Read those comments on youtube/twitch videos about Injustice 2.

I saw Tekken Master games and Tweedy were pretty much the only players that used pure zoning characters. He went out of the tournament with a 1-2 score BTW. Tekken Master defeated Biohazard but Hayatei bodied him.
It's still boring to watch, regardless of who ends up winning.
 

Marlow

Premium Supporter
Premium Supporter
Probably what made it so bland and boring.
I disagree that the game is bland and boring, but I think one thing that leads the game to being less exciting than it could be is simply that Injustice 2 has a smaller player pool than a game like MKX, so overall there's simply less talent and fewer high quality matchups.
 

God Confirm

We're all from Earthrealm. If not, cool pic brah.
Not sure? Read those comments on youtube/twitch videos about Injustice 2.

I saw Tekken Master games and Tweedy were pretty much the only players that used pure zoning characters. He went out of the tournament with a 1-2 score BTW. Tekken Master defeated Biohazard but Hayatei bodied him.
then go argue them comments there. You posted it here and that's not what people are saying. And that you just sat back waiting for an opportunity to bump this thread like "told you so" over something happening that doesn't even disprove that, speaks volumes. If you have to spin what others are saying like this to counter it, there's probably more truth in it than you would like to admit.
 

Skedar70

Noob
Not sure? Read those comments on youtube/twitch videos about Injustice 2.

I saw Tekken Master games and Tweedy were pretty much the only players that used pure zoning characters. He went out of the tournament with a 1-2 score BTW. Tekken Master defeated Biohazard but Hayatei bodied him.
I've seen the comments. You don't seem to understand that its not a discussion about how powerful it is, its about how prevalent it is in the game. Is that so hard to understand? Are you going to deny that the game has a lot of zoning. FYI not only pure zoning characters zone. There was a lot of zoning from Batman, Bluebeettle Joker, Supergirl etc. The game is full of it buddy. Open your eyes.
 

Bruno-NeoSpace

They see me zonin', they hatin'
I've seen the comments. You don't seem to understand that its not a discussion about how powerful it is, its about how prevalent it is in the game. Is that so hard to understand? Are you going to deny that the game has a lot of zoning. FYI not only pure zoning characters zone. There was a lot of zoning from Batman, Bluebeettle Joker, Supergirl etc. The game is full of it buddy. Open your eyes.
How prevalent? Well, the game has a lot o zoning but theres also a lot of rushdown. Whats your point? There are a lot of zoning and a lot of rushdown. There are strong zoning and strong rushdown.

Enviado de meu Moto G (4) usando Tapatalk
 

UGL Preon

The Casual God
I dont think Zoning in this case is the problem. There's a lot of characters with more oppressive zoning in other games. Just feel in this game there's a lot of characters who zone in this game who also have a get off me move that puts you 3/4ths or full screen away. With more chances for meter building and push block you when you do get in.

With how long the stages are that's a lot of real estate to cover to back the zoner in a corner. On some stages they're never cornered due to corner escape interactables or unblockable interactables.

This is all just "Part of the game" and at high level you can adapt to it.

The average casual player who turns on INJ2 on a Wednesday night is not trying to deal with chasing a Fate, Green Arrow, Blue Beetle, etc. Theyd rather play dragonball with their Anti Zoning button "Super Dash". And a lot of them are not down with "Duck, punch forward, duck, inch forward, duck repeat"

I do feel in INJ2 it's much easier to get someone off you than it is to get in on someone. And buddies of mine who just play FGs for fun have told me this gem. Get your Scrubquotes out: "If I get mixed by Firestorm its stupid but I know if I blocked that I'd of had a chance. But with fate you get to a life deficit and I'll just put the controller down. Nothing worse than finally getting in only to get glyphed.".
 

Cobainevermind87

Mid-match beer sipper
How prevalent? Well, the game has a lot o zoning but theres also a lot of rushdown. Whats your point? There are a lot of zoning and a lot of rushdown. There are strong zoning and strong rushdown.

Enviado de meu Moto G (4) usando Tapatalk
Pretty damn prevalent.


With how long the stages are that's a lot of real estate to cover to back the zoner in a corner. On some stages they're never cornered due to corner escape interactables or unblockable interactables.
THIS^^^ It's literally about as fun as getting caught in a traffic jam on your way home. Roll a few feet, stop. Roll a few feet, stop. Over and over. Absurdly monotonous.
 

Marinjuana

Up rock incoming, ETA 5 minutes
Not sure anybody ever said it was broken or unbeatable. Its just part of the meta and how the game is mostly played. I suggest you look at Tekken masters games to understand what we were talking about. Zoning is prevalent and plentiful in inj 2. Probably what made it so bland and boring.
Go check youtube comments. It might not be the opinion of people who play the game competitively but there's a very common belief by more casual players that the zoning is OP. It's the meme of the game.
 

GLoRToR

Positive Poster!
1. Fighting games are different online and offline.
1.a. Casuals who play online experience difficulties that are in part due to their skill level, which is influenced by their lack of offline experience, and in part due to online latency forcing them into bad habits, or those who have good habits will experience the latency in their own way.
2.b. Pros who play both offline and online are aware of these discrepancies and awareness helps you overcome or acknowledge issues and either work around them or accept them as is.

2. Fighting games are vastly based on shifting meta and are no less grindy than mmorpg or moba, except the "xp" here is that you need to get a feel for your character and the entire cast so that you can learn.
2.a. Your level of skill is directly influenced by the skill of those you play. If you never face a vortex you will never need to worry about it. If you're a casual put in the blender of a pro, you have little to no chance of winning.
2.b. Pro level of skill, thus, is a result of meta and of high level players "grinding one another" as well as having ample knowledge to apply in the lab and develop situations and technique for themselves and the community.

3. The above issues are more the source of Injustice 2 being poorly represented and called out by so many people than zoning itself. Zoning is an easy way to avoid "honest play" but it's not a necessarily bad thing, as workarounds always evolve the meta and strengthen the high level play as a whole.
3.a. Problem with zoning begins with online being unforgiving. For example, when I play Starfire vs a Supergirl if I try to zone I'm literally free to her teleport. I labbed it, I still can't respond in time a lot of the time or I don't respond correctly. I'm casual.
3.b. Problem with the meta is not that it's stale but that there is no reason to evolve it because the community, pros and casuals alike, were conditioned into discarding nrs games based on lifecycles, poor communication from the company and the knowledge that beyond a certain point no matter how broken something in a game is, (coughmkxjasoncough) it will not be patched and the game will become abandonware.
The community is waiting for mk11 so the meta is not really showing any massive evolution anymore, save for potential fans with private scenes who may do so at their own discretion but not as part of the community at large.