What's new

Why do people hate Injustice 2? Podcast Discussion.

Roy Arkon

I will leave my seal on you!
I wanna bring one final thing regarding labbing and finding options after something is believed to be obvious and needs to be change. We are talking about REO saying Cyborg needs an AA and several people around here including @Cursa and some others believe that REO is right and they claim that the Cyborg community has labbed enough. Well there is a video from REO's channel from 2016, which he posted regarding the branch Interactable that is in the center of the Kuatan Jungle stage in MKX, about a year and a half after MKX was released and after it was believed by the entire community that all of the uses for that Interactable were found and there is nothing to discover, and yet REO shows how you can jump forward from the branch and who you can spend a Meter bar for it in order to use it for your advantage. So if REO himself can find something new and interesting in MKX, after he labbed it fter he labbed it after a year and half after MKX was released, that means he can also lab for everything else in either MKX or IJ2, including Cyborg, and find new stuff that no one thought was there, or maybe another player will lab and find stuff. That proves that you need to lab more, and not reliying on NRS/WB chaning stuff.


I've even made a video myself on how you can do the Stage Brutality regardless if you jus hang on it or jump right from it after you hang on it, after watching the video from REO back then.
 
Last edited:

God Confirm

We're all from Earthrealm. If not, cool pic brah.
I wanna bring one final thing regarding labbing and finding options after something is believed to be obvious and needs to be change. We are talking about REO saying Cyborg needs an AA and several people around here including @Cursa and some others believe that REO is right and they claim that the Cyborg community has labbed enough. Well there is a video from REO's channel from 2016, which he posted regarding the branch Interactable that is in the center of the Kuatan Jungle stage in MKX, about a year and a half after MKX was released and after it was believed by the entire community that all of the uses for that Interactable were found and there is nothing to discover, and yet REO shows how you can jump forward from the branch and who you can spend a Meter bar for it in order to use it for your advantage. So if REO himself can find something new and interesting in MKX, after he labbed it fter he labbed it after a year and half after MKX was released, that means he can also lab for everything else in either MKX or IJ2, including Cyborg, and find new stuff that no one thought was there, or maybe another player will lab and find stuff. That proves that you need to lab more, and not reliying on NRS/WB chaning stuff.


I've even made a video myself on how you can do the Stage Brutality regardless if you jus hang on it or jump right from it after you hang on it, after watching the video from REO back then.
huh
 
Last edited:

Blewdew

PSN: MaxKayX3
I wanna bring one final thing regarding labbing and finding options after something is believed to be obvious and needs to be change. We are talking about REO saying Cyborg needs an AA and several people around here including @Cursa and some others believe that REO is right and they claim that the Cyborg community has labbed enough. Well there is a video from REO's channel from 2016, which he posted regarding the branch Interactable that is in the center of the Kuatan Jungle stage in MKX, about a year and a half after MKX was released and after it was believed by the entire community that all of the uses for that Interactable were found and there is nothing to discover, and yet REO shows how you can jump forward from the branch and who you can spend a Meter bar for it in order to use it for your advantage. So if REO himself can find something new and interesting in MKX, after he labbed it fter he labbed it after a year and half after MKX was released, that means he can also lab for everything else in either MKX or IJ2, including Cyborg, and find new stuff that no one thought was there, or maybe another player will lab and find stuff. That proves that you need to lab more, and not reliying on NRS/WB chaning stuff.


I've even made a video myself on how you can do the Stage Brutality regardless if you jus hang on it or jump right from it after you hang on it, after watching the video from REO back then.
You can lab how much you want, if a characters aa Options are ass you have to accept that, Buttons don‘t magically change priorities. And saying reo needs to lab more, the person who literally lives in the lab and found massive amounts of tech to this date in every current nrs game is just something else
 

@MylesWright_

I'll be back 3ing
He also does have one of the best footsie tools in the game without question and has a safe on block string ender that leaves him in his footsie range which is really hard to deal with in a lot of matchups because it gives him the option of doing another F2 or backdashing and punishing you if you make the wrong read
Fate is not hitting you at -8 with another F2, maybe at max range which means there's actually opportunity for it to whiff. Any time he even goes into glyph it's a 50/50 on whether Bane armors the gap or punishes the string

Have you labbed this mu?
 

Wigy

There it is...
I think the idea that Injustice 2 is counterpick heavy is just an excuse to hate on the game. It only seems more counterpick heavy now because there's more money on the line compared to past NRS games so obviously players will try to counterpick to give them the best chance at winning.

Counterpicking is part of the game, otherwise you would have a game full of 5-5s which is impossible. If anything, it actually shows how well-balanced Injustice 2 is because of how many viable characters there are in this game that can be used as counterpicks.

The notion that players counterpick with an easy-to-use character like Starfire or Fate and win is also incorrect. Most of the time when we see players picking an alt to cover a bad match-up, they end up losing. The only Starfire that's winning is Tweedy who pretty much mains the character.

The fact is you're never forced to counterpick. This isn't MK9 or INJ1 where you had 9-1 match-ups and needed to pick a top tier character. Most match-ups in this game are 5-5 or 4-6, with very few 3-7s. Sometimes it's better to just stick with your main and try to overcome a bad match-up.
Biohazard and honeybee both use Starfire and are now doing better than before though? There was 4 Starfire's in the top 8 of CEO I think it was.

Most major touraments I've watched there has been tonnes of her in top 8/16.

Like what are you basing this 'only tweedy makes her work on' it's just out and out false

I agree it's not that counter pick heavy a game.

Just feels that way cause some characters gamestyle is so much easier to play than others in my opinion.
 

Dankster Morgan

It is better this way
For the record I don’t see anyone in this game as being hard to use, zoner or otherwise. Fate and Starfire are really good but I don’t think either of them are overpowered, Starfire especially just being a really easy to use character, but it’s not like you can’t fight her, I think the Fate MB orb is really the only zoning tool that some characters really will struggle to have an answer for but it costs meter and has already been nerfed. I’m not saying the zoning in this game is hard to execute, but nothing is really all that hard, I think the game isn’t hard in general
 

Wigy

There it is...
If we look at HoneyBee and Bio's paths from Combo Breaker and CEO, they mostly win using their mains. The few times that they use Starfire they usually end up losing (not saying that they are bad with Starfire).

Combo Breaker:
HoneyBee (Flash) vs BurritoVorhees (Bane) - Win
HoneyBee (Flash) vs SylverRye (Hellboy) - Lose
HoneyBee (Flash/Starfire) vs SonicFox (Captain Cold) - Lose

Bio (Bane) vs Slayer (Black Adam) - Win
Bio (Bane) vs HappyPow (Flash) - Win
Bio (Bane/Starfire) vs Tweedy (Starfire) - Lose

CEO:
HoneyBee (Flash) vs Burrito Vorhees (Grodd/Swamp Thing) - Win
HoneyBee (Flash/Starfire) vs Gross (Black Adam) - Lose
HoneyBee (Flash) vs Grr (Atom) - Win
HoneyBee (Flash) vs SonicFox (Michelangelo) - Lose

Bio (Bane) vs Iluusions (Green Arrow) - Win
Bio (Bane) vs Deoxys (Blue Beetle) - Win
Bio (Bane/Starfire) vs Tweedy (Doctor Fate) - Lose
Bio (Bane/Starfire) vs SonicFox (Red Hood/Michelangelo) - Win

Bio did use Starfire against Sonic, but mostly won with Bane. I don't include Viennality since it's one of the smaller tournaments.
I'd need to go rewatch tournaments to make any counterpoint here. So I'll take your word for it and concede that.

My memory of tournaments were different but clearly stats don't lie

Fair play there, did your research and proved your point.
 

Wetdoba

All too easy...
I believe the the issue mostly has to do with patience, as the community at large is mostly casuals that just dont want to try to get results. The go to for any community whether it is gaming or sports ect is offensive brings hype and defense is boring. Thats just the way people are, they want to see people score. Injustice being probably the most defensive game out right now and being the game we got right after MKX where defense was not allowed mechanically makes the game stand out. Personally this is why I love the game for its neutral heavy design, and variety of viable playstyles (even tho its the most defensive, characters like flash and bane obvious are fully capable if playing their games seeing as honeybee and bio are consistant top 8 placers).

The 2nd is patience as it relates to learning the game. It is no secret that the NRS community is known for crying for nerfs and buffs and constantly getting patches that allow them to pick up the new flavor of the month character and play them at an average level but still do decently due to recent buffs. This also leads to extremely basic understandings of match ups because people dont want to actually grind them out and learn the ins and outs of the match ups or come up with new and unique solutions to probpems when they can just bitch about it or call someone a spammer (just look at those youtube comments lol).

But this really is the issue, just general laziness and not fully wanting to explore the game to its fullest because they know a new patch or game will just come out to change everything. I was watching CEO (one of the best NRS tournaments I have ever watched for hype matches and character variety btw) and the commentators still talk about Banes venom at level 3 incorrectly even tho venom mechanics have not changed since day 1 of IGAU, so theres zero doubt in my mind if commentators are incorrect about basic functions of the character I play that many more are simply not willing to look into their own match ups and characters fully either.

Personally this is the most I have been into the game since launch. It was actually a relief knowing NRS is breaking their release cycle and Inj2 will be around for longer, it has given me a chance to relook at the game, my match ups, and find new tech to help better my Bane even more and convince myself that putting in work with Bane will pay off more than half assing some 2ndary character and playing at a basic level. I am personally excited to have the time and chance to truely master the game and my character. See you all at EVO.
 

Juggs

Lose without excuses
Lead Moderator
what 10 bucks can do for you...immunity.
This HAS to be a joke. You know how much shit we get for NOT caring who your are and/or if you’re a premium or not?

Btw this goes to everyone. Not liking someone or disagreeing with someone doesn’t mean they should be banned. Not how it works.
 

Roy Arkon

I will leave my seal on you!
Everyone's thinking it, Ive been here for like 5 years and I've never seen someone post such trash and be so annoying who didn't get banned for being a troll.
I guess that means that Noble Raptor and Wetdoba as well as Crimson Shadow and Chatter Box are also trolls, since they pretty much have said the same things that I've said regading labbing, complaining and the pros picking certain chars, while you try to put the focus on me rather then the topic at hand with one line posts within pretty much any discussion or argument I have with anyone along with God Confirm and Laidbackone and the rest of those guys who do the same thing, which is exactly what a troll does, but no, I'm the one and only real troll around here. Yeah, sure.

This HAS to be a joke. You know how much shit we get for NOT caring who your are and/or if you’re a premium or not?

Btw this goes to everyone. Not liking someone or disagreeing with someone doesn’t mean they should be banned. Not how it works.
I really appriciate your comment here, thank you very much.

You can lab how much you want, if a characters aa Options are ass you have to accept that, Buttons don‘t magically change priorities. And saying reo needs to lab more, the person who literally lives in the lab and found massive amounts of tech to this date in every current nrs game is just something else
Yes REO does lab a lot, and yes properties very rarely change. But that doesn't mean chars need to have tools like AA's, again with what I've said about counter balancing. And that also doesn't mean REO can't lab even more, or that someone else would lab and find something that wasn't known before that can help with that char in those certain MU's, because anyone can find stuff that others didn't find for anything. Just like REO was the one who found stuff about that interactable after everybody thought there is nothing to find anymore.

Who knows what hidden stuff there is still in either MKX or IJ2, that's why we need to lab more as a community, not to go online and complain.
 
Last edited:

Wigy

There it is...
@Roy Arkon

As always your lack of self awareness and perception on the matter is spectacular.

None of what you said is true. As you can see Ive just agreed with @Noble Raptor and admitted I'm wrong. I have reasonable discussions on here all the time with tonnes of users where I eventually say hey I was wrong. Even when I don't I can respect their opinion and how they phrase it

What you're saying is totally moronic every time you're not saying the same as all those users, you have your own catageory of retarded rhetoric. What's more likely, all these people have an issue with just you cause they're trolls oooor.. somethings wrong with what you say and do.

Just to help you that last questions rhetorical. Delete your account.
 
Last edited:

Cursa

Counterpoke with armoured DB2 at all times.
Fate is not hitting you at -8 with another F2, maybe at max range which means there's actually opportunity for it to whiff. Any time he even goes into glyph it's a 50/50 on whether Bane armors the gap or punishes the string
Theo will get away with it all the time in a variety of matchups. You'll see him abuse backdash/second F2 off of a blocked DB2 all the time. Like yeah sometimes he just sits there and blocks but Fate's in a pretty good spot after a blocked DB2. The only character that I know can punish it is Superman with a frame perfect B2 which is pretttyyyy rough and sometimes whiffs

Armouring gaps is always out of Bane's favour.

Bane can check with a D1 to stop him from doing another but then Fate might just backdash which leaves him safely at halfscreen.

Punishing F2 is in Bane's favour but pretty hard to react to. It's more of a conditioning thing once you've armoured through enough gaps. I don't think I can punish a 9 frame mid at -12 but maybe that's me, especially if I'm expecting a special afterwards. I've yet to do it against a Fate, if they even bother to try and bait an armoured reversal.

All I'm saying is that Fate is in a really really good spot after a blocked DB2. There's options to stop him from doing stuff out of it, whether it be F2, other buttons or backdash but... like Bane's best option is forward dash to stop backdash, for example. And there's about a million things that could go wrong with that.
Have you labbed this mu?
I play both characters. I know how the beat all the options, I'm just saying the options he has off of a blocked special from an advancing mid. It plays into his gameplan so well.
 

Cursa

Counterpoke with armoured DB2 at all times.
Yes REO does lab a lot, and yes properties very rarely change. But that doesn't mean chars need to have tools like AA's, again with what I've said about counter balancing. And that also doesn't mean REO can't lab even more, or that someone else would lab and find something that wasn't known before that can help with that char in those certain MU's, because anyone can find stuff that others didn't find for anything. Just like REO was the one who found stuff about that interactable after everybody thought there is nothing to find anymore.

Who knows what hidden stuff there is still in either MKX or IJ2, that's why we need to lab more as a community, not to go online and complain.
yea but the point is that sometimes there just isn't an answer. Like yes there is a chance that eventually something will be found but there's also a chance that there just isn't an amazing solution to something so yea we complain/tell NRS to halp.

We can't just wait all the time labbing to try and find a solution, imagine if we waited before nerfing Deadshot, maybe there was just some hidden aspect in 30 characters that we hadn't found that had the answer to his zoning.

There's a case to be made for both sides
 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
If we look at HoneyBee and Bio's paths from Combo Breaker and CEO, they mostly win using their mains. The few times that they use Starfire they usually end up losing (not saying that they are bad with Starfire).

Combo Breaker:
HoneyBee (Flash) vs Burrito Vorhees (Bane) - Win
HoneyBee (Flash) vs SylverRye (Hellboy) - Lose
HoneyBee (Flash/Starfire) vs SonicFox (Captain Cold) - Lose

Bio (Bane) vs Slayer (Black Adam) - Win
Bio (Bane) vs HappyPow (Flash) - Win
Bio (Bane/Starfire) vs Tweedy (Starfire) - Lose

CEO:
HoneyBee (Flash) vs Burrito Vorhees (Grodd/Swamp Thing) - Win
HoneyBee (Flash/Starfire) vs Gross (Black Adam) - Lose
HoneyBee (Flash) vs Grr (Atom) - Win
HoneyBee (Flash) vs SonicFox (Michelangelo) - Lose

Bio (Bane) vs Iluusions (Green Arrow) - Win
Bio (Bane) vs Deoxys (Blue Beetle) - Win
Bio (Bane/Starfire) vs Tweedy (Doctor Fate) - Lose
Bio (Bane/Starfire) vs SonicFox (Red Hood/Michelangelo) - Win

Bio did use Starfire against Sonic, but mostly won with Bane. I don't include Viennality since it's one of the smaller tournaments.
@Noble Raptor There's one case you're forgetting here that's important to cover though -- the round-robin situation. A lot of times we think of a counter-pick as a one-off binary action, but it's not. There are often cases where someone *would/might have lost* to a specific character, so they change their pick -- but once they change pick, then the opponent also changes their pick after the next round.

Take Bio vs. Sonic. If Bio switches to Starfire it's because he's feeling his Bane might lose against whoever Sonic is playing to counter Bane. If Bio wins the next round and Sonic then switches off whoever lost to Starfire, Bio might go back to Bane. But the Starfire pick was still successful in getting Sonic off whatever pick Bio feels would have lost him the set.

So imo for a counterpick to be successful, it's not always necessary to play and win the entire set on that pick. Sometimes the threat of it is enough to keep your opponent from sticking to whatever might give them an advantage against your main.

Overall though, I agree with your point -- I just think you're arguing a version of it that's as extreme in the opposite direction as the people who say the game is 100% counterpicks.

The real truth is somewhere in the middle.
 

Wetdoba

All too easy...
Theo will get away with it all the time in a variety of matchups. You'll see him abuse backdash/second F2 off of a blocked DB2 all the time. Like yeah sometimes he just sits there and blocks but Fate's in a pretty good spot after a blocked DB2. The only character that I know can punish it is Superman with a frame perfect B2 which is pretttyyyy rough and sometimes whiffs

Armouring gaps is always out of Bane's favour.

Bane can check with a D1 to stop him from doing another but then Fate might just backdash which leaves him safely at halfscreen.

Punishing F2 is in Bane's favour but pretty hard to react to. It's more of a conditioning thing once you've armoured through enough gaps. I don't think I can punish a 9 frame mid at -12 but maybe that's me, especially if I'm expecting a special afterwards. I've yet to do it against a Fate, if they even bother to try and bait an armoured reversal.

All I'm saying is that Fate is in a really really good spot after a blocked DB2. There's options to stop him from doing stuff out of it, whether it be F2, other buttons or backdash but... like Bane's best option is forward dash to stop backdash, for example. And there's about a million things that could go wrong with that.

I play both characters. I know how the beat all the options, I'm just saying the options he has off of a blocked special from an advancing mid. It plays into his gameplan so well.
Theo will get away with it all the time in a variety of matchups. You'll see him abuse backdash/second F2 off of a blocked DB2 all the time. Like yeah sometimes he just sits there and blocks but Fate's in a pretty good spot after a blocked DB2. The only character that I know can punish it is Superman with a frame perfect B2 which is pretttyyyy rough and sometimes whiffs

Armouring gaps is always out of Bane's favour.

Bane can check with a D1 to stop him from doing another but then Fate might just backdash which leaves him safely at halfscreen.

Punishing F2 is in Bane's favour but pretty hard to react to. It's more of a conditioning thing once you've armoured through enough gaps. I don't think I can punish a 9 frame mid at -12 but maybe that's me, especially if I'm expecting a special afterwards. I've yet to do it against a Fate, if they even bother to try and bait an armoured reversal.

All I'm saying is that Fate is in a really really good spot after a blocked DB2. There's options to stop him from doing stuff out of it, whether it be F2, other buttons or backdash but... like Bane's best option is forward dash to stop backdash, for example. And there's about a million things that could go wrong with that.

I play both characters. I know how the beat all the options, I'm just saying the options he has off of a blocked special from an advancing mid. It plays into his gameplan so well.
At certain distances the 2nd F2 will low crush d1 but really what fate should be doing to protect himself during f2 attempts and preventing bane fr9m armoring f2 push is cover the gap with anhks. Traitless ahkns wikl make the push armor break and traited ahkns can turn it into a blockstring or punish bane on hit
 

Cursa

Counterpoke with armoured DB2 at all times.
At certain distances the 2nd F2 will low crush d1 but really what fate should be doing to protect himself during f2 attempts and preventing bane fr9m armoring f2 push is cover the gap with anhks. Traitless ahkns wikl make the push armor break and traited ahkns can turn it into a blockstring or punish bane on hit
That is true but personally I find going for ankh's kinda risky in a couple of matchups like Bane where he can get a full forward dash on a good read.

tbh Fate doesn't even really have to risk going for a F2 mindgame too often and risk the chance of being reversal'd
 

Roy Arkon

I will leave my seal on you!
yea but the point is that sometimes there just isn't an answer. Like yes there is a chance that eventually something will be found but there's also a chance that there just isn't an amazing solution to something so yea we complain/tell NRS to halp.

We can't just wait all the time labbing to try and find a solution, imagine if we waited before nerfing Deadshot, maybe there was just some hidden aspect in 30 characters that we hadn't found that had the answer to his zoning.

There's a case to be made for both sides
I'm very aware that you need to take any case as ti's own, but you also need to be aware where cases are the same. IJ2 is not even a year and half old, and like King Hippo and Slips said in their podcast, we as a community didn't even scratched the surface of this game. And regarding Cyborg, Ram said earlier on the thread that he never complained about Cyborg's AA options and D2 does what he need it to do. So if Ram can deal with it, why REO and you can't? No disrespect, but that sounds more like crying rather then constructive criticism.

Also, you said that "imagine if we waited before nerfing Deadshot, maybe there was just some hidden aspect in 30 characters that we hadn't found that had the answer to his zoning". That's exactly the point, if we waited even longer, maybe we could've find a way to deal with Deadshot without nerfing his Wrist Canon. That only proves my point even further.

@Roy Arkon

As always your lack of self awareness and perception on the matter is spectacular.

None of what you said is true. As you can see Ive just agreed with @Noble Raptor and admitted I'm wrong. I have reasonable discussions on here all the time with tonnes of users where I eventually say hey I was wrong. Even when I don't I can respect their opinion and how they phrase it

What you're saying is totally moronic every time you're not saying the same as all those users, you have your own catageory of (soap bar in my mouth) rhetoric. What's more likely, all these people have an issue with just you cause they're trolls oooor.. somethings wrong with what you say and do.

Just to help you that last questions rhetorical. Delete your account.
Yes I saw that you agreed with Raptor and adimtted yo were wrong.

And as for my supposdly "unique" rhetoric, it's not true at all. There was no time that their was no one who were on ths same page as me. There was always at least one person that agreed with me and/or said the same stuff I've said as it was proven to be logical and legit. And even if my way of expressing my thoguhts is so different then what you use to hear, that doesn't make it any less legit. I don't need to change my way of expression for anyone. It's what I'm saying that is important, not the way I say it.

And delete my account??? You're basically doing what Juggs just said a few posts ago NOT TO DO. That I will delete my account because you can't accept what I say and how I say it? Did I tell you to delete your account?

Dude, you need to grow the fuck up, you and anyone who thinks that I have to change for them, seriously.
 
Last edited: