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Question Do you guys feel that MKX is the hardest fighting game to date?

Swindle

Philanthropist & Asshole
I’ve been playing fighting games for about 27 years, with varying degrees of success. I adore NRS games, but they are among the easiest to learn, and have the shallowest curve.
 

Slymind

Noob
Some people are being overly agressive for no reason, while it's general consensus that there are harder games, TC asked a question based on his experience. It also comes down to which game's mechanics you manage to indentify yourself with the most. If comparing fighting games was that objective, then a pro-player from the "hardest" game would easily win in other games, should he/she apply to it.
 

Tanno

The Fantasy is the Reality of the Mind
Hardest are the anime fighting games, except of Dragonball Fighter Z, that have crazy combo challenges. Try playing a set w/ anyone and you'll see how hard it is to beat them. 3D FGs are easy.
 

Deep33

Noob
I also dont exactly consider a round ending quickly to make a game that much harder. I mean, it does, yes, but it goes both ways. If you can kill me with one combo into one guess that sounds like a brutally difficult game mechanic in a FG, but if you step back and look at it more objectively.. it means it's easier to lose.. AND easier to WIN.

That kind of thing also puts slightly more emphasis on luck - and luck has nothing to do with difficulty - quite the opposite by and large.

Huge damage means two wrong decisions kill, but it also means it only takes two right ones to win. More decision making means more "stuff" happening and more interactions taking place, and since each and every character interaction is a test of "skill", the game's difficulty is applied again and again.

MKX has painful mixes, staggers, lows enders, overhead enders, command grab tick throws, etc, etc all built into combo strings. Did you imply that MKX has none of this? I am not sure where to start with you, fireball cancels Post dash/run, connects/gimmicks? Block vortices? Gaps? Instantaneous changes to gameplan when opponent built a bar of meter? There’s so many different connected things here to mess with you at this game’s rapid pace. It would take me a long time to type all my thoughts out.



But, lets keep it simple and EQUALIZE a few things

Let’s assume you’re dealing with a higher level player and not the average scrub.

In both games, MKX and TEKKEN 7, this player’s

1) General game knowledge is known to the MAX

2) Character Specific knowledge and opponent’s character knowledge, MU is known to the MAX (Maybe NOT for ALL characters, but atleast between the player’s character and his opponent’s character)

3) The player’s execution level is at its MAX



AT THIS LEVEL OF EQUALIZATION, this is how I feel. MKX is bizarro fkin fast. Tekken is slow as fk (relatively). I am able to react much more easily in Tekken 7 than I can in MKX if I FAIL on some reads. Tekken appears to be way more forgiving if I miss a read and I have a chance to save myself on reaction. This is simply not possible in MKX. It can be oppressive as hell on some Mus. I suppose I should post one of sets against Ninjakilla’s L.Kang, run it on slowmo and commentate on what the fk I had to do and what my thought process was to win certain rounds.
 

Marinjuana

Up rock incoming, ETA 5 minutes
Why people say that Tekken is so hard? It requires study on pointless big ass string lists, and having circunstancial combos depending on the wall and shit, but That's about it. And I don't play Street Fighter V (sry, too sexualized even for a japanese game, cannot bare it. And they're not even my type of sexualization, shame on you SF), but doesn't everyone says that it is extremely dumbed down and that the execution is a joke?
To be honest I found MKX really stressing and skill demanding when your opponent knows what they're doing. Game is oppresive as fuck.
Because it is? The average move list of a character includes 100 different moves, it takes you more time to learn one character in Tekken then it does to learn several in a game like MKX. Then add in like 30-40 characters or however many are in Tekken 7. That's not just a small thing, that's a big deal. Not only do I have dramatically more that I have learn and learn to defend against, I have to be prepared to defend against so many more options during a match then in most games.

Moving in Tekken effectively requires more difficult inputs then anything found in NRS games past maybe cancel pressure. And Tekken has its share of cancels and command grab inputs that are way tougher then what you would find in a NRS game.

Defending in MKX is tough but a lot of that is because of the presence of 50/50 style mixups that lead into huge damage as well as things like chip and oppressive normals. But I have to learn to defend in Tekken as well, with a 3D plane to boot. The bottom line is that to get to a good level in Tekken, I have to do way more work then I would have to in MKX.
 
Because it is? The average move list of a character includes 100 different moves, it takes you more time to learn one character in Tekken then it does to learn several in a game like MKX. Then add in like 30-40 characters or however many are in Tekken 7. That's not just a small thing, that's a big deal. Not only do I have dramatically more that I have learn and learn to defend against, I have to be prepared to defend against so many more options during a match then in most games.

Moving in Tekken effectively requires more difficult inputs then anything found in NRS games past maybe cancel pressure. And Tekken has its share of cancels and command grab inputs that are way tougher then what you would find in a NRS game.

Defending in MKX is tough but a lot of that is because of the presence of 50/50 style mixups that lead into huge damage as well as things like chip and oppressive normals. But I have to learn to defend in Tekken as well, with a 3D plane to boot. The bottom line is that to get to a good level in Tekken, I have to do way more work then I would have to in MKX.
I'd call that more tedious than difficult. To each their own, I guess.
 

Marinjuana

Up rock incoming, ETA 5 minutes
I'd call that more tedious than difficult. To each their own, I guess.
I mean if they added 20 more strings to Sub Zero's tool set which gave him way more mixups, would you call that more tedious or more difficult to defend against?
 

HellblazerHawkman

Confused Thanagarian
Still typing my main response. but.,. just that bolded part about Tekken shows you dont really understand Tekken at all. I'm not saying that hatefully, because the predictability and react-ability statement doesnt make any sense. You also talk about making one or two mistakes and dying.. have you watched Tekken rounds? they can end off one combo into a wall and one mistake after. Tekken game's are typically so fast the standard format is best of 3 rounds, not 2, because the damage and speed at which you lose is SO FAST, it warrants it. Yes, top players can sometimes run a clock out, but that's the same with almost any game occasionally and when it happens in Tekken (as with many games) it has nothing to do with a slow pace, but happens because things can go tits up SO FAST neither party wants to over commit and plays back.

I dont know what you mean saying Tekken is more forgiving if you dont know the strings because of the predictability and reactability though.. Strings in Tekken for instance, often have numerous enders or extensions, so you have to make a hard read on just when the other player stops, or what ender he does. Strings in MKX rarely behave like this at all, and if you know what string is being done, you know how to block it. Since most characters have a small handful of these, its a lot easier to know and understand an MKX character's strings than someone like Hwo in tekken. Hwo - as an example - has well over 100 moves and what he does, how he does it, the frame data, continuation, combos, options, and movements depend on which leg he has facing forward at the time, and he can switch forward facing legs after some moves, or not, depending on his preference. You cant memorize the string and say "Ok he's negative whatever after this, or this, and I block this with this pattern". Throws in Tekken are EXTREMELY powerful as well and require incredible reactions and knowledge to deal with. I know, we watch a tournament and you see JDCR break every attempt, but try it yourself vs some of the cast, where you not only have to react with the break in time, but use the correct break, which is based on what arm(s) and such are used.. giving some characters 1,2 and 1+2 breaks, and some characters have 3+4 breaks, and others on top. Normally throws have very little range, but many in Tekken have range approaching that of a jab or the like, massive oki off some, wall splats into 35-40% combos from some, and so on.

You mention reading your opponent on a deep level.. and Tekken - to continue the example - is absolutely FAMOUS for the necessity of reads. Absolutely everything in Tekken is a read. Every normal, string, hit,block, side step, everything and one wrong read or mistake and you are almost certainly at a wall now, and usually one more hit and you're dead.

Frame data is far more "fluid" in Tekken as well. Movement options and sidesteps/walks as well as in some cases stance transitions and such can seriously change what you can and cant do. In MKX you know a moves frame data, and you know when you get to take your turn - in Tekken you often have to make a read in these situations, just to take a turn when you opponent is negative (unless he's very very negative). AND EVEN THEN, since many moves have various crush/evasive properties you have to deal with all that as well.

So in MKX you CAN be crystal clear on frame data, in Tekken knowing it is every bit as important, but there are layers of mindgames laid on top of something as simple as trying to take your turn when your opponent is negative enough that you SHOULD be able to.
I'm a Tekken casual, so take some of this with a grain of salt. Wanted to add in how there seems to be a specific defensive option for everything with options to counter those options. Like, was watching a thing on how every character has a universal parry that checks lows. BUT, you can't just throw it out, because every character also has an option to check that parry if their low gets caught.

Wanted to mention that having higher damage combos doesn't necessarily make a game harder. Yeah, you have to block that, but you also have access to those same tools. Just taking a look at MK9, I've never watch somebody do that Cyrax 70% combo or whatever it was and said "oh man, this game is SO difficult and technical!" Because you win if you got that one touch. It doesn't necessarily make a game bad that characters can hit so hard, it just means that it isn't difficult to learn based on that alone.

Now for my not so professional opinion, really? MKX is the hardest to play fighting game? Compared to UNIST, the early Guilty Gear games, the later BlazBlue games, Marvel 3, Skullgirls, or any other anime game I'm forgetting? That's why so many people still play MKX right, because it's just so technical and demanding that it has become the new benchmark for who the best FG players are
 
I mean if they added 20 more strings to Sub Zero's tool set which gave him way more mixups, would you call that more tedious or more difficult to defend against?
We all know there are A LOT of useless strings in tekken. Doing that to Sub-Zero has a name: unnecessary.
 

Deep33

Noob
I'm a Tekken casual, so take some of this with a grain of salt. Wanted to add in how there seems to be a specific defensive option for everything with options to counter those options. Like, was watching a thing on how every character has a universal parry that checks lows. BUT, you can't just throw it out, because every character also has an option to check that parry if their low gets caught.

Wanted to mention that having higher damage combos doesn't necessarily make a game harder. Yeah, you have to block that, but you also have access to those same tools. Just taking a look at MK9, I've never watch somebody do that Cyrax 70% combo or whatever it was and said "oh man, this game is SO difficult and technical!" Because you win if you got that one touch. It doesn't necessarily make a game bad that characters can hit so hard, it just means that it isn't difficult to learn based on that alone.

Now for my not so professional opinion, really? MKX is the hardest to play fighting game? Compared to UNIST, the early Guilty Gear games, the later BlazBlue games, Marvel 3, Skullgirls, or any other anime game I'm forgetting? That's why so many people still play MKX right, because it's just so technical and demanding that it has become the new benchmark for who the best FG players are
I never stated that i've every played every FG on earth at a very technical level on my initial post.
In addition to MKX, Tekken 7 and SFV. I have experience with SFIV, Tekken 6 and can play SmashBros Melee at a high level, but i consider it to be an outlier.

My comparison is limited to MKX, Tekken 7 and SFV, the three current flagships from NRS, Capcom and Namco that've dominated the FG scene for a bit.

IF you think there are other specific games, Guilty Gear, Skullgirls etc that are harder in comparison by magnitudes, explain why.
 

Deep33

Noob
Why people say that Tekken is so hard? It requires study on pointless big ass string lists, and having circunstancial combos depending on the wall and shit, but That's about it. And I don't play Street Fighter V (sry, too sexualized even for a japanese game, cannot bare it. And they're not even my type of sexualization, shame on you SF), but doesn't everyone says that it is extremely dumbed down and that the execution is a joke?
To be honest I found MKX really stressing and skill demanding when your opponent knows what they're doing. Game is oppresive as fuck.
I agree on the sexualization of SFV. On future street fighters, they should put the male characters in speedos, make em do buttslaps and introduce testicle bounce mechanics.For instance, give Balrog a pair of giant balls that bounce all the way to Chinatown and back. That should start to make all these boyz around here a bit uncomfortable, give em a feel for what your complaint was about.