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Question Do you guys feel that MKX is the hardest fighting game to date?

Deep33

Noob
I've been sinking my fingers into SFV and Tekken 7 over the past year & a half. But, I honestly feel that MKX is the toughest fighting game i've got into in all these years for many reasons.

Do other MKX warriors who play this game at a high level and experiment with other fighting games feel this way?
 

Cursa

Counterpoke with armoured DB2 at all times.
Tell me why
I think the better question is why do you find MKX harder than Tekken?

Don't Tekken players have to spend like months and months, if not longer (not an expert), getting characters to the highest level?
 

Deep33

Noob
I think the better question is why do you find MKX harder than Tekken?

Don't Tekken players have to spend like months and months, if not longer (not an expert), getting characters to the highest level?
Everything in Tekken and SFV is easy to react to. MKX, sheer speed, inability to react to many things (you have to read your opponent on a much deeper level than the other two), 50/50s to the umpteenth degree, corner game, way fewer options (compared to Tekken/SFV) to get out of hot messes, i can go on and on...

Maybe if you played Kung Jin you had an easier time. Raiden, reptile, Cyrax, etc are not easy characters to master man.
 

Cursa

Counterpoke with armoured DB2 at all times.
Everything in Tekken and SFV is easy to react to. MKX, sheer speed, inability to react to many things (you have to read your opponent on a much deeper level than the other two), 50/50s to the umpteenth degree, corner game, way fewer options (compared to Tekken/SFV) to get out of hot messes, i can go on and on...

Maybe if you played Kung Jin you had an easier time. Raiden, reptile, Cyrax, etc are not easy characters to master man.
Well that's more just guesses than anything I'd say. I wouldn't say it makes the game harder to master, since you can't master guessing 50/50's correctly or reacting to things that are unreactable to begin with. I would go as far to say that that makes MKX easier, since opening people up becomes pretty easy when basically every character has raw 50/50's.

In terms of actually learning characters I don't see how MKX is very hard, compared to Tekken at least. I played both a pretty chunky amount (not for years or anything but for a decent time) and I always found that with basically every character in MK you could give a day or two in the lab and you would have said characters' BnB's and fundamentals about 60-80% down depending on character.

I play all variations of Liu Kang by the way. IAFB corner combo's are a bitch if you want to see something difficult. Everything else is just more game familiarity than anything. For example, once you get run cancels down for one character, it becomes a lot easier to get them down for other characters etc.
 

NothingPersonal

Are you not entertained!?
I'd say it's tougher to play, than being a hard game overall. It's fast, has hard to react situations and very heavy mix-ups, but it's pretty easy to pick up and execute. SFV is not tough, but it's harder because you have less options and executions may be a problem. Tekken is reactable, but it's hard in that you have to have knowlege of a lot of strings.
I play MK, so my dick is bigger :)
 

Deep33

Noob
I'd say it's tougher to play, than being a hard game overall. It's fast, has hard to react situations and very heavy mix-ups, but it's pretty easy to pick up and execute. SFV is not tough, but it's harder because you have less options and executions may be a problem. Tekken is reactable, but it's hard in that you have to have knowlege of a lot of strings.
I play MK, so my dick is bigger :)
I think you and I have different opinions on the definition of "hard"
- Two wrong reacts on 50/50's to the umpteenth degree and you're dead, that's hard.
- Very low tolerance for error or simply a case of bad luck, that's hard. There are many old school games out there in different genres that are extremely hard, even though execution is pretty freaking simple.
- As i said before, that requires you to read your opponent on a much deeper level (be an ethereal clairvoyant), to try and make that 50/50 into a 80/20 for instance.
- SFV and Tekken 7 seem to be so predictable and reactable to me, and the stress level's low. That to me is freakin easy! Tekken, you have to have knowledge of a lotta strings you say? Well, in the end its still way more forgiving because of the predictability and reactability if you didn't. In MK, you better be crystal clear on every li'l frame, every string, every optimal counter for the whole cast (all variations) while placing extreme importance on resource management before you hit a tourny (or you're dead before you come to your senses.)

I play on a hitbox controller. SFV execution to me is no harder than MKX. But, then again, i play Displacer and Nimble, not Dung-Jin. Execution consistency after a coupla months is the same on both games.

Not sure what the emphasis on dick size is, but, I have been losing my virginity on a daily basis for the past 15+ years. So, I have never even thought about the size of it.
 
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Undergroundepict

I am like the blue rose
I think you and I have different opinions on the definition of "hard"
- Two wrong reacts on 50/50's to the umpteenth degree and you're dead, that's hard.
- Very low tolerance for error or simply a case of bad luck, that's hard. There are many old school games out there in different genres that are extremely hard, even though execution is pretty freaking simple.
- As i said before, that requires you to read your opponent on a much deeper level (be an ethereal clairvoyant), to try and make that 50/50 into a 80/20 for instance.
- SFV and Tekken 7 seem to be so predictable and reactable to me, and the stress level's low. That to me is freakin easy! Tekken, you have to have knowledge of a lotta strings you say? Well, in the end its still way more forgiving because of the predictability and reactability if you didn't. In MK, you better be crystal clear on every li'l frame, every string, every optimal counter for the whole cast (all variations) while placing extreme importance on resource management before you hit a tourny (or you're dead before you come to your senses.)

I play on a hitbox controller. SFV execution to me is no harder than MKX. But, then again, i play Displacer and Nimble, not Dung-Jin. Execution consistency after a coupla months is the same on both games.

Not sure what the emphasis on dick size is, but, I have been losing my virginity on a daily basis for the past 15+ years. So, I have never even thought about the size of it.
Just don't play defensively and go all in like a maniac. You're only considering the game from a defensive perspective. When you are on offense, then they have to guess all of your 50/50's and deal with your absurd plus frames and chip. From that perspective, the game feels super easy, lol.
 

Osagri

Fear the blade of Osh-Tekk
I think you and I have different opinions on the definition of "hard"
- Two wrong reacts on 50/50's to the umpteenth degree and you're dead, that's hard.
- Very low tolerance for error or simply a case of bad luck, that's hard. There are many old school games out there in different genres that are extremely hard, even though execution is pretty freaking simple.
- As i said before, that requires you to read your opponent on a much deeper level (be an ethereal clairvoyant), to try and make that 50/50 into a 80/20 for instance.
- SFV and Tekken 7 seem to be so predictable and reactable to me, and the stress level's low. That to me is freakin easy! Tekken, you have to have knowledge of a lotta strings you say? Well, in the end its still way more forgiving because of the predictability and reactability if you didn't. In MK, you better be crystal clear on every li'l frame, every string, every optimal counter for the whole cast (all variations) while placing extreme importance on resource management before you hit a tourny (or you're dead before you come to your senses.)

I play on a hitbox controller. SFV execution to me is no harder than MKX. But, then again, i play Displacer and Nimble, not Dung-Jin. Execution consistency after a coupla months is the same on both games.

Not sure what the emphasis on dick size is, but, I have been losing my virginity on a daily basis for the past 15+ years. So, I have never even thought about the size of it.
U playing T7 at blue or Green ranks? I bet u cant break throws on reaction even at 30% succses. At low levels it May seem easy but it rly aint.
 

Deep33

Noob
Just don't play defensively and go all in like a maniac. You're only considering the game from a defensive perspective. When you are on offense, then they have to guess all of your 50/50's and deal with your absurd plus frames and chip. From that perspective, the game feels super easy, lol.
Play a few sets against Madzin or Sikander's Grandmaster. I've played against both of them. Just go all in like a maniac with them and see what happens. Or just go all in like a maniac against Ninjakilla's Kang. Let me know what happens.
 
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Undergroundepict

I am like the blue rose
Play a few sets against Madzin or Sikander's Grandmaster. I've played against both of them. Just go all in like a maniac with them and see what happens. Or just go all in like a maniac against Ninjakilla's Kang. Let me know what happens.

Chill bruh. It was just advice.
 

EntropicByDesign

It's all so very confusing.
I think you and I have different opinions on the definition of "hard"
- Two wrong reacts on 50/50's to the umpteenth degree and you're dead, that's hard.
- Very low tolerance for error or simply a case of bad luck, that's hard. There are many old school games out there in different genres that are extremely hard, even though execution is pretty freaking simple.
- As i said before, that requires you to read your opponent on a much deeper level (be an ethereal clairvoyant), to try and make that 50/50 into a 80/20 for instance.
- SFV and Tekken 7 seem to be so predictable and reactable to me, and the stress level's low. That to me is freakin easy! Tekken, you have to have knowledge of a lotta strings you say? Well, in the end its still way more forgiving because of the predictability and reactability if you didn't. In MK, you better be crystal clear on every li'l frame, every string, every optimal counter for the whole cast (all variations) while placing extreme importance on resource management before you hit a tourny (or you're dead before you come to your senses.)

I play on a hitbox controller. SFV execution to me is no harder than MKX. But, then again, i play Displacer and Nimble, not Dung-Jin. Execution consistency after a coupla months is the same on both games.

Not sure what the emphasis on dick size is, but, I have been losing my virginity on a daily basis for the past 15+ years. So, I have never even thought about the size of it.

Still typing my main response. but.,. just that bolded part about Tekken shows you dont really understand Tekken at all. I'm not saying that hatefully, because the predictability and react-ability statement doesnt make any sense. You also talk about making one or two mistakes and dying.. have you watched Tekken rounds? they can end off one combo into a wall and one mistake after. Tekken game's are typically so fast the standard format is best of 3 rounds, not 2, because the damage and speed at which you lose is SO FAST, it warrants it. Yes, top players can sometimes run a clock out, but that's the same with almost any game occasionally and when it happens in Tekken (as with many games) it has nothing to do with a slow pace, but happens because things can go tits up SO FAST neither party wants to over commit and plays back.

I dont know what you mean saying Tekken is more forgiving if you dont know the strings because of the predictability and reactability though.. Strings in Tekken for instance, often have numerous enders or extensions, so you have to make a hard read on just when the other player stops, or what ender he does. Strings in MKX rarely behave like this at all, and if you know what string is being done, you know how to block it. Since most characters have a small handful of these, its a lot easier to know and understand an MKX character's strings than someone like Hwo in tekken. Hwo - as an example - has well over 100 moves and what he does, how he does it, the frame data, continuation, combos, options, and movements depend on which leg he has facing forward at the time, and he can switch forward facing legs after some moves, or not, depending on his preference. You cant memorize the string and say "Ok he's negative whatever after this, or this, and I block this with this pattern". Throws in Tekken are EXTREMELY powerful as well and require incredible reactions and knowledge to deal with. I know, we watch a tournament and you see JDCR break every attempt, but try it yourself vs some of the cast, where you not only have to react with the break in time, but use the correct break, which is based on what arm(s) and such are used.. giving some characters 1,2 and 1+2 breaks, and some characters have 3+4 breaks, and others on top. Normally throws have very little range, but many in Tekken have range approaching that of a jab or the like, massive oki off some, wall splats into 35-40% combos from some, and so on.

You mention reading your opponent on a deep level.. and Tekken - to continue the example - is absolutely FAMOUS for the necessity of reads. Absolutely everything in Tekken is a read. Every normal, string, hit,block, side step, everything and one wrong read or mistake and you are almost certainly at a wall now, and usually one more hit and you're dead.

Frame data is far more "fluid" in Tekken as well. Movement options and sidesteps/walks as well as in some cases stance transitions and such can seriously change what you can and cant do. In MKX you know a moves frame data, and you know when you get to take your turn - in Tekken you often have to make a read in these situations, just to take a turn when you opponent is negative (unless he's very very negative). AND EVEN THEN, since many moves have various crush/evasive properties you have to deal with all that as well.

So in MKX you CAN be crystal clear on frame data, in Tekken knowing it is every bit as important, but there are layers of mindgames laid on top of something as simple as trying to take your turn when your opponent is negative enough that you SHOULD be able to.
 
Why people say that Tekken is so hard? It requires study on pointless big ass string lists, and having circunstancial combos depending on the wall and shit, but That's about it. And I don't play Street Fighter V (sry, too sexualized even for a japanese game, cannot bare it. And they're not even my type of sexualization, shame on you SF), but doesn't everyone says that it is extremely dumbed down and that the execution is a joke?
To be honest I found MKX really stressing and skill demanding when your opponent knows what they're doing. Game is oppresive as fuck.
 

EntropicByDesign

It's all so very confusing.
Ok. So, fascinating topic.

Ill start by giving my opinion.. and that is; No. MKX is not the hardest fighting game out there in any catagory I can think of.

Now, before we start to set things out, I think we need to define just what "hard" actually means in this instance, as it could mean different things to different people. I *do not* factor success into the definition of a game's difficulty. ie, if you were top 10 ranked in the world in game X, and after the same effort invested are totally unable to make it into that same top 10 in game Y, it doesnt mean game Y is harder than X. Success is different than difficulty in this instance.

I define a fighting game's difficulty as a combination of all the skills required to play the game at an above average level, and the investment in total effort required to obtain these skills - spread across an average of the game's characters. Ie, we arent cherry picking the easiest or hardest character to make our point, but rather trying to find an average between the two that the majority of the playable cast occupies. I assume the player has an understanding of FGs as a whole and understands the acronyms, terms, what frame data means, and the like.

In FGs that general breaks down to something like:

-General game knowledge. - This is understanding the universal systems in the game, as well as nuances that are required to know to perform at the above-average level mentioned.

-Character specific knowledge. - This is knowing your own character(s), and knowing enough MU related knowledge about other characters to play the CHARACTER on as even a footing as the MU itself allows.

-Execution required at a practical level. - This can be movement, BnBs, punishes, MU specific stuff that may be required to play vs a certain character correctly, etc. Practical, required execution. If a character has a combo with four 1frame links in it and that combo is REQUIRED to play that character correctly, then it counts. If its just a fringe-scenario/swag/justcauseican combo, then it does not. Anything that requires mechanical/physical skill.


Of course, this is all still quite relative. Difficulty in anything is heavily individualized. What is enormously difficult for one person may be absolutely basic and simple for another. A person may take to one game easily, and another only after many long and grueling hours of practice and effort.. While perhaps completely failing to ever acclimitize to another.

To the meat of the matter.

MKX is not anywhere near as hard (IMO) as numerous other FGs. It's not easy - I am absolutely not claiming that - but its over-all difficulty is not particularly high.

I'll state three primary examples that I think are a hell of a lot harder than MKX.

The first is Tekken 7.

So, the Korean Back Dash Cancel is probably the first thing people think about, that and Electrics. Tekken is sort of legendary for its difficulty and I think it lives up to that - but not because of the KBDC or EWGF, though they factor in. My reasons are as follows:

Movement. -

The KBDC's difficulty is *WAY* over-hyped imo. People talk about hundreds of hours and months and even years of training and all this nonesense.. and no. Unless on some personal level you just struggle with it. Using myself as an example, I have very weak execution across the board.. and I had a useable one in about 10 days, of sub-20m practice sessions and in a month it was excellent. This was on pad - but I practiced three times on stick for bout 20m each time and was well on my way to getting it there too. It's not easy, and its absolutely REQUIRED - so it does count in our discussion - but it's not anything like it's made out to be.
Tekken's movement is an entire world unto itself, and movement as a whole is what really takes months to years to learn in Tekken. It's not just the mechanical requirements of the KBDC or the wavedash (not everyone needs to WD but there are enough characters that do that it's relevant), but the knowledge. Understanding when to side walk, or side step, which direction (it's not one sidestep fits all), when to backdash, how far, how to use your KBDC intelligently and not just to scoot backwards quickly, various types of command movement(s) on different characters, and how all of these options funnel in to defensive and offensive situations and the various mindgames around creating whiff punish scenarios. In Tekken just hitting Down is a movement option that changes and significantly alters the entire movement "landscape". It's an absolutely enormous amount of crap to juggle and keep straight in your head and it absolutely *is* required to play the game at an above-average level. Movement in Tekken even plays heavily in to frame data and such, as some transitions change a move's OH/OB properties (this is arguably a MU knowledge kind of thing), and even when negative - depending on how much - side stepping can allow you to continue offense or entirely change post block situations merely by being an option that exists.

MU/Character knowledge. -

So, ya know how, in some games there is a character that may not be that great, but if you dont know his/her specifics, that character will absolutely annihilate you? Take, say, Bane in Inj2. He's not OP. He's not top 5.. but if you play him and dont know the MU and understand HOW to play against him, he can feel utterly and absolutely BROKEN, when played by a competent player. Blanka and THawk in SFIV were like this as well.. Well, in Tekken, that's honestly 75% of the cast. In Tekken MU knowledge takes on a life of it's own. Characters have upwards of 70 moves in most cases, pushing in to the 80s and 90s and even 100s for some of the cast. MANY characters have weird strings or moves that arent actually any good at all.. *IF* you know how to counter/deal with them. Lack this knowledge though and you can be utterly run over by gimmicks and dumb shit that seems broken or impossible to deal with. Hwo has a move thats multi-hit armored, leads to a combo that takes 50% of your life, is not just SAFE but on block acts as a small GUARD BREAK guarenteeing a small damage combo, tracks (cant SS), is unreactable on startup and can SET UP A 50/50, where it's other option leads to just as much damage... AND if you somehow catch it early enough before it's armor kicks in - the Hwo player is in a float state, which means you do extremely reduced damage... Understanding when a character can use stance or movement transitions to effect what happens after certain moves, etc. Then roll the movement options back in to all of this.

Damage. -

MKX hits hard. Combos do a lot and its unforgiving.. but Tekken is more-so. Matches play out over three rounds, not two, for a very good reason. Watch Tekken matches, look at the number of perfects.. The game is BRUTALLY unforgiving with most characters doing 40% or so off almost any launch, and mini-combos making 2 hit combos take 25+%. Throws in Tekken do a ton of damage as well. Get your back to a wall and try to deal with everything that's coming.. Its a nightmare. Many combos can convert if they reach a wall, and do absolutely brutal damage. You cant block a mid while crouching in Tekken, making the ability to "50/50" in Tekken not only universal, but absolutely constant, with incredible safety to the person making you guess. MKX is brutal when you're under pressure, but nothing is quite like being under pressure with your back to the wall in Tekken.. ESPECIALLY if you just got knocked down and your trying to get up.

Execution. -

I list this because I dont think, IN AVERAGE TERMS, execution is harder in Tekken. Yes, if you play a Mishima, or Lee or something, then I think that exceeds anything MKX has to offer, but in terms of average character difficulty, I dont see either game being above the other. Most character's BnBs are easy, but both games have some characters that are harder than others.


**other game comparisons to follow**
 

EntropicByDesign

It's all so very confusing.
I also dont exactly consider a round ending quickly to make a game that much harder. I mean, it does, yes, but it goes both ways. If you can kill me with one combo into one guess that sounds like a brutally difficult game mechanic in a FG, but if you step back and look at it more objectively.. it means it's easier to lose.. AND easier to WIN.

That kind of thing also puts slightly more emphasis on luck - and luck has nothing to do with difficulty - quite the opposite by and large.

Huge damage means two wrong decisions kill, but it also means it only takes two right ones to win. More decision making means more "stuff" happening and more interactions taking place, and since each and every character interaction is a test of "skill", the game's difficulty is applied again and again.