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TOP 5 (after patch)

CrazyFingers

The Power of Lame Compels You
Okay i'm about to ramble about seb of da 0.

Basically anything he does can be hit confirmed into 40%, if you block then he'll have a mind game of mb burst, regular burst, or clone. It's impossible to react and punish clone on this game since burst is good enough to use frequently. Clone is also 8 frames so there's that.

For awhile Sub was this honest boy. Buffalo was winning but he was winning by winning neutral with clone and ice ball, and broke jump ins, good mids, etc. Recently Raptor found a true mix up off of mb command grab, using jump 2 or jump 3. It's essentially level 3 trait Firestorm stuff, on a character that is never unsafe and has considerably better neutral than Firestorm. He can also get this started off of his f3, which would probably be the best f3 in the game if Cheetah didn't exist.

Sub's only possible weaknesses imo are lack of real mix ups and anti airs. As I explained above, the first weakness no longer exists. The 2nd one is whatever since he has an 8 frame clone with almost no cool down.

People say "oh well X and Y string is unsafe", but why would Sub need to use anything outside of the standing 1 strings or f22? Imagine if I said Superman is bad because of a string that isn't f23. Like all he needs is f23.

What am I missing here? Great mid that can be hit confirmed into 40%, block confirmed into safety or plus frames. Super duper pooper broke jump in. Top 5 damage. 8 frame clone, giving him corner lockdown in a lot of match ups, and also one of the best counterpoking tools in the game. Also air clone is ridiculously good at baiting trip guards.

Top 5 wake up free as fuck. When people think of slide, they think, oh well it's not Possessed Kenshi, or Mystic Ermac. Where are they in this game? A fast, fully invincible low, for no meter? That's cheap asf in this game.

MB ice ball makes zoning risky for a decent amount of characters. Slide also recovers in 15 frames on whiff, so if spaced correctly, he can use it to get in on zoning easily.

He also has little mix ups like air hammer or b11 off of jump ins. 111 or 113.

I think he's probably top 3, just behind Catwoman and Black Adam. If you don't agree with me, that's cool. All i'll say is that if you don't think he's top 10 at least, hit up Buffalo or Sweet Neptune for games.
All of this. Especially that last bit. Neptune and Buffalo will have you scratching your head going "Wtf, Sub's in this game?" As you get face fucked by ice in the corner and have any sort of neutral game snuffed out by a vaguely sub zero shaped block of ice.
 

NothingPersonal

Are you not entertained!?
Okay i'm about to ramble about seb of da 0.

Basically anything he does can be hit confirmed into 40%, if you block then he'll have a mind game of mb burst, regular burst, or clone. It's impossible to react and punish clone on this game since burst is good enough to use frequently. Clone is also 8 frames so there's that.

For awhile Sub was this honest boy. Buffalo was winning but he was winning by winning neutral with clone and ice ball, and broke jump ins, good mids, etc. Recently Raptor found a true mix up off of mb command grab, using jump 2 or jump 3. It's essentially level 3 trait Firestorm stuff, on a character that is never unsafe and has considerably better neutral than Firestorm. He can also get this started off of his f3, which would probably be the best f3 in the game if Cheetah didn't exist.

Sub's only possible weaknesses imo are lack of real mix ups and anti airs. As I explained above, the first weakness no longer exists. The 2nd one is whatever since he has an 8 frame clone with almost no cool down.

People say "oh well X and Y string is unsafe", but why would Sub need to use anything outside of the standing 1 strings or f22? Imagine if I said Superman is bad because of a string that isn't f23. Like all he needs is f23.

What am I missing here? Great mid that can be hit confirmed into 40%, block confirmed into safety or plus frames. Super duper pooper broke jump in. Top 5 damage. 8 frame clone, giving him corner lockdown in a lot of match ups, and also one of the best counterpoking tools in the game. Also air clone is ridiculously good at baiting trip guards.

Top 5 wake up free as fuck. When people think of slide, they think, oh well it's not Possessed Kenshi, or Mystic Ermac. Where are they in this game? A fast, fully invincible low, for no meter? That's cheap asf in this game.

MB ice ball makes zoning risky for a decent amount of characters. Slide also recovers in 15 frames on whiff, so if spaced correctly, he can use it to get in on zoning easily.

He also has little mix ups like air hammer or b11 off of jump ins. 111 or 113.

I think he's probably top 3, just behind Catwoman and Black Adam. If you don't agree with me, that's cool. All i'll say is that if you don't think he's top 10 at least, hit up Buffalo or Sweet Neptune for games.
 

x TeeJay o

Canary Cry Gapless Pressure
Supergirl isn't included because I think she's gotten worse as people have adapted and gotten used to her.

Gotten used to her how sway? There's people EVERYWHERE bitching about her every single day that passes. Top players, average players, casual players. Even if this statement was somehow true(which I think it's bogus) there's still no way she isn't top 5. She's 1 or 2. And the only reason I say that is because Catwoman exist. Supergirl has 0 losing matchups. I don't know if Catwoman doesn't either but that's neither here or there. Tier lists aren't about how dumb your corner game is, or how stupid your mix is, or how one special move is busted. It's about MUs. Y'all just be making shit up nowadays smh
 

ATP2014

The best mediocre Batman
@Tweedy How does Superman fare vs Sub? I always had it as even, but I know alot of people have Superman with an advantage.
 

Tweedy

Noob
@Tweedy How does Superman fare vs Sub? I always had it as even, but I know alot of people have Superman with an advantage.
If they have Superman winning, they're on some type of drug or have not played it at high level. Buffalo downplays so hard and still says it's 5-5 or even slight advantage Sub on 2 stages.
 
Based off what?
Based off the fact that this entire thread isn't based off anything yet you ask me to elaborate? I'll elaborate .

-She's a hard counter for at least 4 characters now (Canary, Catwoman, Cold, Batman, possibly sub zero, possibly Flash)
-Counters every top 5 posted in this thread besides super girl, fate, Adam
-Has no overwhelming mu's if anything her 4-6's are only slightly in the opponent favor
-Has 0 hard counters herself
 
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ATP2014

The best mediocre Batman
If they have Superman winning, they're on some type of drug or have not played it at high level. Buffalo downplays so hard and still says it's 5-5 or even slight advantage Sub on 2 stages.
Hmmmm ok. I agree that Sub is downplayed but I feel like top 5 is a stretch. Still struggles in too many MU's to be up there with the top tier.

Top 10 for sure though.
 

Tweedy

Noob
Hmmmm ok. I agree that Sub is downplayed but I feel like top 5 is a stretch. Still struggles in too many MU's to be up there with the top tier.

Top 10 for sure though.
Just play it with Superman vs one of those two. You can't do anything post breath, the zoning risk/reward is always bad, Superman has to hold a lot in the corner unless he gets some type of maniac air dash off, that can be read. He can't anti air Sub at all unless he jumps with him.

Sub probably loses to like Wowo, Batman and maybe a couple others. Some are bills to me. Like sure Aquaman has an advantage in the neutral, but Sub does twice as much damage as him, literally twice as much.
 

EntropicByDesign

It's all so very confusing.
I think WoWo is hella strong too actually.

This sub talk is interesting, but how are his bad MUs? Does he have hard counters of any kind, or can he adapt around them?

I originally said I thought he was bad, but I've gone back and watched WotGs and any other sub stuff from Buffalo and Neptune that was recent.. and.. I'm kinda changing my mind. Sub doesn't have this one WOW thing.. like one central power gimmick, and most of his stuff can be argued around, but the options are with him, he has you kind of adapting and trying to guess just what he's going to do, and if he wants to remove the guessing game and just stay solid he can, slide is nuts for navigating the screen in the right hands, watching Neptune use whiffed slides into punishes and shit is.. gorgeous.

I dunno. I'm not casting my vote for top 5 because I dunno about such things, but I am casting my vote for "I was wrong AF and he's strong AF".
 

Dankster Morgan

It is better this way
Tbh I don’t play the game enough to make an accurate top 5 list for the newest patch.

NPO:

Supergirl
Catwoman
Black Adam

Those 3 are for sure my top 3, not sure on the order though. 4-5 spots could be occupied by
Firestorm
Fate
Red Hood

Then there’s other super powerful characters that I don’t think are quite top 5: Superman, Batman, Sub(I agree with Tweedy’s reasoning, but idk if there’s enough info about his matchups to put him over a character like Fate who only loses like 3 matchups. I’m not saying Tweedy is wrong though, I’m just gonna hold off a little till I learn more), Wonder Woman(hella slept on), Arrow, Darkseid, Blue Beetle, Flash Brainiac, Atrocitus.


I actually really hate top 5 lists for this game because it causes a lot of great characters to get overshadowed for no reason. People just get this idea that somehow the top 5 are more relevant when really character 4 is only like maybe one or 2 winning matchups better than say character 11. It’s almost meaningless, which is why a tier list is far more constructive. Since a lot of characters are so damn close, limiting discussion to 5 characters is silly.
 

Dankster Morgan

It is better this way
Supergirl
Superman
Flash
Robin
Catwomen
Fate
Redhood
Adam

My top8.

Also I love how having great mids is a big deal yet no one talks abour how Adam doesn’t really have great or advancing mids like SM.

This forum is very biased, only I heard is how broken Adam is yet don’t see anyone talking about his weaknesses.
Having great mids is a big deal and Adam does get murdered on knockdown. However, the strengths Adam does have are more valuable than a Superman or Supergirl type of mid string.
 

Dankster Morgan

It is better this way
@Tweedy

People made a huge deal about Sub’s gaps in string into burst? Not saying it is or isn’t valid because I don’t play enough Sub to know, but is that a big thing?