NRS/WB should bring back the Variation System for MK11 - Here's Why

Roy Arkon said:

What i meant to say is that you need to give the players the options change their gameplan overall to fit more into their preferred style of play, not just picking one or 2 tools instead of another because it is very hard to alter the gameplan of a character by just one or 2 moves, if not even impossible. It doesn't matter if they pick on the character selection screen or somewhere else in the game.

Click to expand...

What I meant by altering gameplan is just starting to play differently during that match, changing your preferred range, tools you input in certain situation, things like that. Character obviously needs all required tools to support more than one plan ofc.

What I'm basically saying it "screw variations, produce tools and stuff them all into move list".

Barrogh said:

What I meant by altering gameplan is just starting to play differently during that match, changing your preferred range, tools you input in certain situation, things like that. Character obviously needs all required tools to support more than one plan ofc.

What I'm basically saying it "screw variations, produce tools and stuff them all into move list".

Click to expand...

Ok thanks for clearing this up. I still think NRS should bring back the Variations but only 2 Variations per character, but like I said earlier if NRS bring the Gear moves from IJ2 back with 2-3 Gear-like moves for each char and you can pick only one at a time like @thlityoursloat said, that could be a good compromise.

Roy Arkon said:

So let me get this straight: I'm making one mistake about Jax, and that means I don't know what I'm talking about regarding any topic including the Variation system in general and other topics? Even though my explanation on the OP was legit after experiencing MKX as well as other fighting games on a more serious level for years, as well as my posts regarding Reptile specifically in the lore that I made towards @Hara-Killer and @Israel , but yet I don't know what I'm talking about at all even regarding these topics of either competitive play or the MK lore, only because I made one mistake regarding one character and one Variation? That's fucking ridiculous beyond any fucking belief and at this point YOUR credibility, at least for this particular argument, has been lost. I make one mistake and you make a salad off of everything, or at least that's what it seems.

But hey, you said you're not gonna respond, so I guess you finished making the salad and I just ate it all.

Click to expand...

Now your explanation makes sense within the time line, apologies accepted, we are all here to learn that's how it works, no one in here was born with knowledge mate, neither do us, just explain yourself better next time, because you weren't being so clear at all, it sounded like you were contradicting yourself.

Carry on.

Roy Arkon said:

sorry for the double post but since this is gonna be a long one I have to split it in two.



Ok now I understand regarding Jax specifically, thank you.



I understand regarding the tools vs. approach thing, but I won't say NRS games suffer from polarized MU's. There are different types of archetypes and MU's in NRS games just like in other games. And yes none of the characters has ever had the exact same tool set in each game, but the very core of their gameplay was the same.



Ok then, I understand.



That's not what I meant. What i meant to say is that you need to give the players the options change their gameplan overall to fit more into their preferred style of play, not just picking one or 2 tools instead of another because it is very hard to alter the gameplan of a character by just one or 2 moves, if not even impossible. It doesn't matter if they pick on the character selection screen or somewhere else in the game.

Click to expand...

Wow, so you get it after the 10th time somoene tells you that HW's bazooka was in no way a zoning tool.
Good for you, at least you got it right in the end.

Eddy Wang said:

Now your explanation makes sense within the time line, apologies accepted, we are all here to learn that's how it works, no one in here was born with knowledge mate, neither do us, just explain yourself better next time, because you weren't being so clear at all, it sounded like you were contradicting yourself.

Carry on.

Click to expand...

Thank you for understanding me, and I will try to explain myself better next time, and your apology is accepted as well

LaidbackOne said:

Wow, so you get it after the 10th time somoene tells you that HW's bazooka was in no way a zoning tool.
Good for you, at least you got it right in the end.

Click to expand...

That's because you didn't explain it to me the right way. No offense, but all you told me I already knew and didn't counter my thought that I had, but @Barrogh explained that with the details that I didn't know. That's what was going on. Hope that now you understand that.

Roy Arkon said:

Thank you for understanding me, and I will try to explain myself better next time, and your apology is accepted as well



That's because you didn't explain it to me the right way. No offense, but all you told me I already knew and didn't counter my thought that I had, but @Barrogh explained that with the details that I didn't know. That's what was going on. Hope that now you understand that.

Click to expand...

So please, explain to me, why did you argue with me even though you didn't know what you are arguing about? Are you one of those people who start a political debate even though they know nothing of politics?
If so then yes, I understand.

LaidbackOne said:

So please, explain to me, why did you argue with me even though you didn't know what you are arguing about? Are you one of those people who start a political debate even though they know nothing of politics?
If so then yes, I understand.

Click to expand...

No, I didn't know that HW Jax was at the end of the day all about the LAW cancels and that the Energy Wave was a better projectile for Zoning then the Machine Gun despite the Machine Gun covering both the ground and the air like @Barrogh explained. You didn't say to me anything regarding that, all you said was that "just because he has a Machine Gun that doesn't mean he is a Zoner", even though I already knew that in projectiles in general alone don't make you a Zoner and you explained to me WHY Jax in particular wasn't a Zoner despite the Machine Gun and the Rockets, unlike @Barrogh who did explained that. That's why @Barrogh 's explanation was better. Saying that "just because he has a projectile doesn't make you a Zoner" that's way to general of an explanation.

Roy Arkon said:

No, I didn't know that HW Jax was at the end of the day all about the LAW cancels and that the Energy Wave was a better projectile for Zoning then the Machine Gun despite the Machine Gun covering both the ground and the air like @Barrogh explained. You didn't say to me anything regarding that, all you said was that "just because he has a Machine Gun that doesn't mean he is a Zoner", even though I already knew that in projectiles in general alone don't make you a Zoner and you explained to me WHY Jax in particular wasn't a Zoner despite the Machine Gun and the Rockets, unlike @Barrogh who did explained that. That's why @Barrogh 's explanation was better. Saying that "just because he has a projectile doesn't make you a Zoner" that's way to general of an explanation.

Click to expand...

Thats not the point. Why in the first place did you say what you said even though you just posted that you have no idea how this character works. Thats the whole point of this conversation. You had no idea how Jax works and yet you argued about this.

LaidbackOne said:

Thats not the point. Why in the first place did you say what you said even though you just posted that you have no idea how this character works. Thats the whole point of this conversation. You had no idea how Jax works and yet you argued about this.

Click to expand...

I thought I knew how he works and only after I posted that and @Barrogh explained that to me I realized I was wrong. It's not like I knew I had no idea how he works and posted that anyway on purpose. If I knew already then that I have no idea how he works I won't even think about posting that. Things like that happen in real life bro.

Now let's end this argument here and go back to the original topic. It has gone way too far

I'd rather not. Some characters had variations that were entirely useless and one variation was just the best, and some characters have multiple S+Tier variations (looking at you Ermac and Kitana). Even Paulo himself admitted variations were a terrible idea and hard to balance. I'd be surprised if they return in MK11. They'll probably do something new for MK11 imo

I think the variation system would be good IF they are not forced to make a certain amount of numbers for each variation. Rather, if they can think of a character that would be unique enough to have 2-3 variations and theyre different enough; then there should be a variation for the character.

Someone like Raiden in mkx doesn't need 3 variations, displacer raiden is essentially could just be a move for the two others making Raiden has 2 variations rather than forced to be unnecessary 3

And I think someone like Kenshi should just be one character and that would work out just fine, the 3 variations are similar enough where he would be better with mix and match skill

Variations are a cool idea in concept (especially if you're a character loyalist) but are super difficult to balance. Each variation essentially becomes another character.

I think it would be cool if instead of 3 set variations if they would have a sort of build a variation system where you could swap certain specials for others but keeping their normals the same , basically how the gear/abilities work in injustice 2 but more carefully balanced and intended for competitive use instead of just casual

I think 2 Variations is perfect. That way you can have 2 dramatically different characters in one, granted that they put the 2 Variations to work with tons of differences. One example of this was Sonya. All 3 of her Variations were competitively viable and had a purpose that they served in altering her playstyle. If they tried as much as they did like that, it could become a great staple for MK.
If NRS can find a way to make these Variations great and DIFFERENT, it could drive the MK Universe forward.
Now the argument of giving every character the abilities that would normally be separated into Variations boggles my mind.
So if Quan Chi returns to MK11, he should gain the bat from Summoner, the Runes from Sorcerer, and the combo potential from Warlock? What about Scorpion? The extra normals range from Ninjutsu, the zoning and combo potential from Inferno, and the Fbcs from Hellfire? Nah, let's keep those separate lol.
This is especially a good thing for casuals, as they mainly might know how they like to play, and they can play a character they like the look of and still have their preferred playstyle available to them. It's just a fact a huge amount of people play characters because of their looks, so allowing them to be able to play them without having to learn a specific playstyle which could potentially just drop them off of the character overall, Variations are the perfect way to let them and us play characters we like in a playstyle we like.

Salad Petresky said:

I think the variation system would be good IF they are not forced to make a certain amount of numbers for each variation. Rather, if they can think of a character that would be unique enough to have 2-3 variations and theyre different enough; then there should be a variation for the character.

Someone like Raiden in mkx doesn't need 3 variations, displacer raiden is essentially could just be a move for the two others making Raiden has 2 variations rather than forced to be unnecessary 3

And I think someone like Kenshi should just be one character and that would work out just fine, the 3 variations are similar enough where he would be better with mix and match skill

Click to expand...

I don't think this will work. Not having one set of Variation across all of the roster can lead to some really difficulties in balancing the game.

KingKhrystopher said:

I think 2 Variations is perfect. That way you can have 2 dramatically different characters in one, granted that they put the 2 Variations to work with tons of differences. One example of this was Sonya. All 3 of her Variations were competitively viable and had a purpose that they served in altering her playstyle. If they tried as much as they did like that, it could become a great staple for MK.
If NRS can find a way to make these Variations great and DIFFERENT, it could drive the MK Universe forward.
Now the argument of giving every character the abilities that would normally be separated into Variations boggles my mind.
So if Quan Chi returns to MK11, he should gain the bat from Summoner, the Runes from Sorcerer, and the combo potential from Warlock? What about Scorpion? The extra normals range from Ninjutsu, the zoning and combo potential from Inferno, and the Fbcs from Hellfire? Nah, let's keep those separate lol.
This is especially a good thing for casuals, as they mainly might know how they like to play, and they can play a character they like the look of and still have their preferred playstyle available to them. It's just a fact a huge amount of people play characters because of their looks, so allowing them to be able to play them without having to learn a specific playstyle which could potentially just drop them off of the character overall, Variations are the perfect way to let them and us play characters we like in a playstyle we like.

Click to expand...

Very true.

Roy Arkon said:

I don't think this will work. Not having one set of Variation across all of the roster can lead to some really difficulties in balancing the game.



Very true.

Click to expand...

I'm not sure if it would be that difficult since the variation would be so different that would you be just like balance an extra character. Hence, why the variation should be used if they make the character different enough and not just because "everyone needs 3 variations".

Plus let's be honest here, game balancing is 2nd; the fun factor is always first. Marvel vs Capcom 3 really hit the nail on the head to really prove this concept. People don't care about balance when the game is so fun

The thing that really I think bothered me about MKX Balancing was that that, whenever they nerfed a string or a normal that universal, it was exactly that; universal. Therefore other Variations that were good only because the base character they were used with were so strong became way worse as a result. They should really look into making specific normals and specific frame data for different Variations.

Salad Petresky said:

I'm not sure if it would be that difficult since the variation would be so different that would you be just like balance an extra character. Hence, why the variation should be used if they make the character different enough and not just because "everyone needs 3 variations".

Plus let's be honest here, game balancing is 2nd; the fun factor is always first. Marvel vs Capcom 3 really hit the nail on the head to really prove this concept. People don't care about balance when the game is so fun

Click to expand...

First of if the game is good then it's gonna be fun regardless, but it's always important to have it balanced as well.

Second of all, it would be much better for every character to have 2 Variations, it will be a lot easier to make different Variations for each character that way that will make them truly different.

The variation system is cancer, i don't want that shit back in MK11 or anything that remotely resemble it. Focus on refining every single character's build by adding all the tools they need to define their design and allow them to compete in their own unique style.

If Kung Lao is designed to be a pressure based character then focus on giving him all the tools he needs to do his job, he does not need a hybrid variation where he can be a zoner or a mixup character. there are other characters that fill those rolls.

I sincerely hope NRS would go back to MK9 and use it as a blueprint for MK11. Every single character their was unique and was best at a certain playstyle that no other character can clone or do better. That is all the variations needed in a fighting game.

Darth-Nero said:

The variation system is cancer, i don't want that shit back in MK11 or anything that remotely resemble it. Focus on refining every single character's build by adding all the tools they need to define their design and allow them to compete in their own unique style.

If Kung Lao is designed to be a pressure based character then focus on giving him all the tools he needs to do his job, he does not need a hybrid variation where he can be a zoner or a mixup character. there are other characters that fill those rolls.

I sincerely hope NRS would go back to MK9 and use it as a blueprint for MK11. Every single character their was unique and was best at a certain playstyle that no other character can clone or do better. That is all the variations needed in a fighting game.

Click to expand...

This so much this.

That skarlet block specialty tho, i miss it.

Darth-Nero said:

The variation system is cancer, i don't want that shit back in MK11 or anything that remotely resemble it. Focus on refining every single character's build by adding all the tools they need to define their design and allow them to compete in their own unique style.

If Kung Lao is designed to be a pressure based character then focus on giving him all the tools he needs to do his job, he does not need a hybrid variation where he can be a zoner or a mixup character. there are other characters that fill those rolls.

I sincerely hope NRS would go back to MK9 and use it as a blueprint for MK11. Every single character their was unique and was best at a certain playstyle that no other character can clone or do better. That is all the variations needed in a fighting game.

Click to expand...

But that's the point. What if you do like Kung Lao as a character but would rather play a Zoning character then a pressure based one? That's what the Variation system is for.

It's all about giving the players options to play their character of choice with playstyle they like, and not limiting the characters to just one playstyle in which case you have to play that playstyle or else you would have to play a character that you don't like just because the playstyle is your preferred one. On that job, NRS did an excellent job with the Variation system, and for that reason alone they should bring it back for MK11. And like I said, bring 2 Variations per char, that will be enough while still making each Variation different and will gave players more options for how to play their characters.

I myself loved Ninjutsu Scorpion, and even though all of Scorpion's Variations were eventually around the vortexes, Ninjutsu also gave the element of long range attacks which is one of my personal favorite playstyle, adding the fact that NRS did a perfect job of the sound design for Scorpion's Ninjutsu Katanas. That's why I loved the Ninjutsu Variation, but as for Hellfire, even though it was good, I couldn't play that Variation because it was too Rushdown-heavy. So that's a good example of that. Another example is about Noxious Reptile like I gave in the OP.

KingKhrystopher said:

The thing that really I think bothered me about MKX Balancing was that that, whenever they nerfed a string or a normal that universal, it was exactly that; universal. Therefore other Variations that were good only because the base character they were used with were so strong became way worse as a result. They should really look into making specific normals and specific frame data for different Variations.

Click to expand...

Yes that's where they difficultly in the balancing came from. Eventually they managed to make MKX very well balanced, but if they make each Variation to be really different with maybe just extremely few similarities at best, that should be easier to balance.