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This Is A Hunt I've Longed For: Cheetah General Discussion

I

Igniz13

Noob
I shredded a batmans life bar in 7 seconds with trait. She's got some stupid stuff that keeps her maybe viable and dangerous. In a world where ba does half life with a meter and that's fine, she can do that easily without meter with trait and a good read.

Her combos into legit throws really help with her pressure game and she's sort of a solid grappler.
 
GroovyMango

GroovyMango

Bullseye
karaokelove said:
Please post some footage of you vs a skilled Aquaman. His trait destroys her since her strings don't launch, his d2 shits on all of her options, TR wakeup ruins her f3 oki game, and you better be ready to eat d1-TR after d1-TR.
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When you see him trait, cancel your string into jump > command grab, or just jump away. If he's using TR as a wake up, go for j1 on his wake up and you'll go behind and punish him. After you block TR if you're too scared of another d1 TR, backdash.

We all play the character with the best mobility, we have to play lame (despite being rushdown) to frustrate our opponents into making mistakes. Against Aquaman, if you're not in his face, wait for him to do tenticle grab, then pounce in after that asap. j3 will usually hit him out of d2 if you're fast enough. Like I've said, no match up is unwinnable with all the tools we have, it's about how we use them. Also if they make that timer 180 seconds at EVO, I better see cheetah with them timeouts
 
I

Igniz13

Noob
I understand the principle behind running away and punishing mistakes, but you're not going to anti air or whiff punish him or anything like that and tentacle will follow you anywhere.

Only thing I suggest is that your trait against his should mean he'll take a boat load of damage
 
RoboCop

RoboCop

The future of law enforcement.
Administrator
Premium Supporter
GroovyMango said:
When you see him trait, cancel your string into jump > command grab, or just jump away. If he's using TR as a wake up, go for j1 on his wake up and you'll go behind and punish him. After you block TR if you're too scared of another d1 TR, backdash.

We all play the character with the best mobility, we have to play lame (despite being rushdown) to frustrate our opponents into making mistakes. Against Aquaman, if you're not in his face, wait for him to do tenticle grab, then pounce in after that asap. j3 will usually hit him out of d2 if you're fast enough. Like I've said, no match up is unwinnable with all the tools we have, it's about how we use them. Also if they make that timer 180 seconds at EVO, I better see cheetah with them timeouts
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On paper, yes, all of that works. But in an actual match, against an Aquaman player who isn't trying to let you win, the risk/reward is just too heavily in his favor.

A good Aquaman can react to your oki pressure; they can see whether or not you're jumping. If you're not jumping, they know they can wake up with TR and Cheetah has no answer. If they see you jumping, they can wake up with Water Shield, delay their wakeup, or just try to block correctly.

Backdash is not a viable solution to any problem for Cheetah. She can't do damage if she's not right on top of her opponent, and his tentacle move will catch her backdashing quite often. And let's say you do backdash...then what? How do you approach? He outranges you completely and can break the armor of MB.f3.

I'm not saying it's unwinnable by any means (I reserve that kind of talk for the Batman MU...), but it's certainly a major reason we won't be seeing Cheetah in any Top 8's until at least the first major balance patch.
 
K

kcd117

Noob
Is hard to lame aquaman out after punishing a few mistakes. He hits with a ftd fullscreen and you take 25% dmg, he hits with anything at j3/b3 range and you take 40% plus, then he can start laming you out and he does it way better than cheetah. That said, I don't think this matchup is obnoxiously bad like the batman MU, it's really hard for me to come up with a number for this matchup, even though Cheetah has to work super hard to get arround his godlike neutral, aquaman can loose the game if he get's knocked down. Next time I play a good aquaman I'll save some footage.
 
JesterSMX

JesterSMX

It's too laggy to poke...
MAPUSA said:
hey guys
any use for the db2 mb besides more dmg? is it a hkd?
that move should make a pop up for wallbounce combos ;D
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It's a hkd. Not a ton of advantage but it gives you a d3 check. I use it in trait combos for damage and if I'm midscreen and want to keep them close. I wouldn't use it in juggles unless you have trait popped. End in high cmd grab for more advantage.
 
Espio

Espio

Kokomo
MAPUSA said:
Hey guyz
Cheetah is free on wakeup and aa, am i right?
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Before I answer these questions, my first question for you is: do you mean on anti-airing opponents or getting anti-aired BY opponents? I have an answer for both, but for the sake of not wasting time/space I will wait for you to clarify.

Cheetah isn't free on wake up, I think that's a narrative that isn't actually true in context. A wake up game is more than just one or two specials. She has the longest or one of the longest reaching back dashes in the game so that can get her up and away especially if you've conditioned with her wake ups and such.

People say DP isn't a good wake up, but here's why that's not true: It shreds MB back 3/forward 3 armor pretty freely and does respectable damage if meter burned plus it has the added benefit of giving you some distance to plan your next move. In order to deal with DP you can obviously block or do a particular jump back set up, but it's kind of telegraphed so if you're paying attention you can also get up without taking a risk. Primal rage is full combo punishable on block yes, but it's one of the fastest wake ups in the game.

There's also the conditioning if you've done it with her primal rage where the opponent might dash up and block in anticipation for your DP. If they do this and you see them blocking high or low, you can do a command grab wake up and launch for full combo to punish them for respecting your wake up. Regular throw is also a possible option.

If people try to MB forward/back 3 you on wake up you can also scout that out and your MB forward 3 will win pretty much any armor scenario and you can side switch and put them in the corner or put them closer to the corner depending on screen position.

Then you can of course mix in delayed wake up or just block because sometimes the smartest wake up is NO wake up at all. These are some deeper meta things people will start doing as they level up and get stronger as players.
 
B

Badboy Takuma

Noob
@Espio
D2 is her only aa tool i guess? It trade a lot or lose against a lot of jump in attacks.
I was trying standing one but it sucks.

Being cornered you cant backdash and her db2 leaves her wide open for maximum punishment.
She is kinda free in corner against some chars, i could be wrong tho
I have to explore her more
 
Espio

Espio

Kokomo
MAPUSA said:
@Espio
D2 is her only aa tool i guess? It trade a lot or lose against a lot of jump in attacks.
I was trying standing one but it sucks.

Being cornered you cant backdash and her db2 leaves her wide open for maximum punishment.
She is kinda free in corner against some chars, i could be wrong tho
I have to explore her more
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At CEO last weekend I was anti-airing Batmans doing jump 2 and Supergirl players doing really instant air dashes into attacks at an extremely reliable ratio. Not even exaggerating of like 95% ratio but sometimes I would trade or lose, but that was me doubting a read and such. Although even online, I seem to get the anti-air combo pretty reliably.

Everyone loses options in the corner, it's not unique to her. You're not in the corner 24/7.

I addressed a lot of what you mentioned in the post above so I won't rehash. She's not. You have a fast wake up that shreds armor. Yeah it's unsafe, but you have to do very telegraphed things to beat it or you have to block and when people do that you can start mixing them up. People think a wake up needs to be safe to be a good wake up and that's not true.

When people level up the meta they'll start doing a lot of what I described because it does work, you can't cover every option with some catchall either.
 
bishbash

bishbash

Magic as easy as 1 2 standing3
MAPUSA said:
@Espio
D2 is her only aa tool i guess? It trade a lot or lose against a lot of jump in attacks.
I was trying standing one but it sucks.

Being cornered you cant backdash and her db2 leaves her wide open for maximum punishment.
She is kinda free in corner against some chars, i could be wrong tho
I have to explore her more
Click to expand...

Her standing 3 will AA some jump ins but it's not very consistent in my experience. Badly spaced jump ins can be stuffed with mbf3, if it wasn't advancing this would probably be her better option. I struggle myself when knocked down in the corner, as you know lol. I dash forward a lot though if I see my opponent go for a cross up this can be done on reaction
 
GroovyMango

GroovyMango

Bullseye
Espio said:
Before I answer these questions, my first question for you is: do you mean on anti-airing opponents or getting anti-aired BY opponents? I have an answer for both, but for the sake of not wasting time/space I will wait for you to clarify.

Cheetah isn't free on wake up, I think that's a narrative that isn't actually true in context. A wake up game is more than just one or two specials. She has the longest or one of the longest reaching back dashes in the game so that can get her up and away especially if you've conditioned with her wake ups and such.

People say DP isn't a good wake up, but here's why that's not true: It shreds MB back 3/forward 3 armor pretty freely and does respectable damage if meter burned plus it has the added benefit of giving you some distance to plan your next move. In order to deal with DP you can obviously block or do a particular jump back set up, but it's kind of telegraphed so if you're paying attention you can also get up without taking a risk. Primal rage is full combo punishable on block yes, but it's one of the fastest wake ups in the game.

There's also the conditioning if you've done it with her primal rage where the opponent might dash up and block in anticipation for your DP. If they do this and you see them blocking high or low, you can do a command grab wake up and launch for full combo to punish them for respecting your wake up. Regular throw is also a possible option.

If people try to MB forward/back 3 you on wake up you can also scout that out and your MB forward 3 will win pretty much any armor scenario and you can side switch and put them in the corner or put them closer to the corner depending on screen position.

Then you can of course mix in delayed wake up or just block because sometimes the smartest wake up is NO wake up at all. These are some deeper meta things people will start doing as they level up and get stronger as players.
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God thank you for this. At the end of the day too, it's not bad to block on wake up. It's okay to have to hold a pressure situation every now and then, and push block > backdash to get away and reset to neutral. Every character has situations they're not the greatest in. Just because Cheetah doesn't have the god wake up or the god anti air doesn't make her bad. I've made aquaman's d2 whiff with far leap and punished with dive. Sometimes it's better to have slightly weaker (but still good) options, it makes your opponent get too confident, and then you can use your tricks to take advantage of that.
 
iAteUrLife

iAteUrLife

VinD
EMPRESS_SunFire said:
It's not her only way in. No air move should have priority over an AA, that would be scruby like just watch Batman's J2...

Jumping is not her only way in at all, you can dash in (she has a 12F dash), D3, MB F3, IA pounce, or jump are her best ways to get in. Obviously all of these are reads, she doesn't have a get in for free advancing fast mid or stupid air normal like some characters but that's her.
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I didnt say AA i said "Air to Air" like both characters jumping at eachother situations. Her being easily AA from jump/pounce is balanced and normal like it should be since its high risk high reward
 
Zionix

Zionix

AKA Ponkster
iAteUrLife said:
I didnt say AA i said "Air to Air" like both characters jumping at eachother situations. Her being easily AA from jump/pounce is balanced and normal like it should be since its high risk high reward
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Cheetahs lunge is High risk/low reward. No block stun and 223 is probably up there with the worst strings in the game, which is the only thing you can use if you ever did manage to get in.

If they ever want Cheetah to be a serious character then she needs torpedo for the neutral and more range on her B1 so she can actually use hit adv/whiff punish/pressure with something against someone holding back.

Sweep doesn't do enough by itself and wake-ups on this game are too many to counter them all.
 
EMPRESS_SunFire

EMPRESS_SunFire

Regina George of discord
iAteUrLife said:
I didnt say AA i said "Air to Air" like both characters jumping at eachother situations. Her being easily AA from jump/pounce is balanced and normal like it should be since its high risk high reward
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Some characters can only A2A her tho. Characters with bad AAs would get besten by this move all day
 
GroovyMango

GroovyMango

Bullseye
Zionix said:
Cheetahs lunge is High risk/low reward. No block stun and 223 is probably up there with the worst strings in the game, which is the only thing you can use if you ever did manage to get in.

If they ever want Cheetah to be a serious character then she needs torpedo for the neutral and more range on her B1 so she can actually use hit adv/whiff punish/pressure with something against someone holding back.

Sweep doesn't do enough by itself and wake-ups on this game are too many to counter them all.
Click to expand...
I don't agree with that. Lunge is something that is used to make your opponent guess in neutral, something that from that far no other character can really do. If you see people start to do mb b3 or d2 a lot, then do short lunge and have them waste a bar with no punish, or just whiff something to be punished if you're close enough.

I don't think it's the greatest tool ever, and I would like cheetah to get some buffs, but the issue is if you give her too much, she becomes the strongest character ez. I'd love it if she had a 6f normal, a way for her dp to lead to a full combo, or a forward moving string, but any of these tools can make her really really strong when she's not even that weak. Yeah she struggles but whatever, neutral against that character isn't easy for your opponent to deal with, no matter how bad anyone thinks she is. Batman REALLY is the only character I think she struggles super hard with.

Also D3 is great since the knockdown is long enough to lead to an ambiguous jump in with any button, and if you're gtting mashed after you jump, press the button later and give yourself more advantage, make them question whether they should mash or not.
 
JesterSMX

JesterSMX

It's too laggy to poke...
I made a one-liner on a thread about catwoman's ability to evade Red Hood's ground mine... Said yet cheetah can't low profile high omega beams in stance. 16bit replied to it and said Omega Beams never miss. I asked him if it was intentional and got crickets. I think a patch is coming. Cheetah is great but other characters are too good it's stupid... plain and simple. Can't even watch streams anymore. They could've saved a lot of time and money by making the game with only 6 characters.
 
Saboteur-6

Saboteur-6

Filthy Casual
GroovyMango said:
When you see him trait, cancel your string into jump > command grab, or just jump away. If he's using TR as a wake up, go for j1 on his wake up and you'll go behind and punish him. After you block TR if you're too scared of another d1 TR, backdash.

We all play the character with the best mobility, we have to play lame (despite being rushdown) to frustrate our opponents into making mistakes. Against Aquaman, if you're not in his face, wait for him to do tenticle grab, then pounce in after that asap. j3 will usually hit him out of d2 if you're fast enough. Like I've said, no match up is unwinnable with all the tools we have, it's about how we use them. Also if they make that timer 180 seconds at EVO, I better see cheetah with them timeouts
Click to expand...
I don't know how much of this is actually true (not a lot of Cheetah experience) but I respect the mentality of focusing on ways to overcome limitations and push the character forward. Seems like so much of the conversation around TYM is inundated with how trash so and so character is, how broke the top tier is, and just bleak and full of frustration and cries for nerfs / buffs.

I'm sincerely asking here but is Discord any better? I'm not feeling it with TYM so much lately.
 
I

I AM T3XAS

Noob
Agreed seeing the same 5 or 6 characters constantly on stream is boring af. I skip matches with Adam, batman, aqua, atrocious. Balance patch the game already ffs
 
JesterSMX

JesterSMX

It's too laggy to poke...
Saboteur-6 said:
I don't know how much of this is actually true (not a lot of Cheetah experience) but I respect the mentality of focusing on ways to overcome limitations and push the character forward. Seems like so much of the conversation around TYM is inundated with how trash so and so character is, how broke the top tier is, and just bleak and full of frustration and cries for nerfs / buffs.

I'm sincerely asking here but is Discord any better? I'm not feeling it with TYM so much lately.
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I get my post came across as whiny but I truly feel I lose at the character select screen. You can sense that the optimism on this thread is on the decline because we're all coming to the same conclusion.

Discord is like a real time tym without trolls and thread derailing. It's pretty sweet tbh.
 
K

kcd117

Noob
My d3 has been whiffing at point blank range so many times against floaty characters. superman and green lantern can simply walk/dash through my d3 sometimes and full combo punish it. And good luck d3ing GL in the corner, it whiffs like 80% of the time if he is walking back no joke. This is getting super annoying.
 
GroovyMango

GroovyMango

Bullseye
JesterSMX said:
I get my post came across as whiny but I truly feel I lose at the character select screen. You can sense that the optimism on this thread is on the decline because we're all coming to the same conclusion.

Discord is like a real time tym without trolls and thread derailing. It's pretty sweet tbh.
Click to expand...
No I totally get you, and sometimes it really does feel shitty losing to someone who feels like they're working a lot less than you. At the end of the day you need to also view the flip side of that. Imagine how your opponent feels when you have a life lead and just fly around the screen, running away. PLUS with the timer change happening at EVO, we're getting a nice benefit to our extreme mobility/frustration factor.

What Saboteur said is completely true, in all my years going to TYM (injustice 1 onward) All I've seen in the forums is people either complaining their character isn't good, or downplaying the HELL out of their character, and it's so frustrating. Instead of complaining, we need to put that energy towards finding solutions to what we struggle with. Yes we can't duck omega beams with lunge, which is INCREDIBLY frustrating, but that doesn't mean the match up is free for darkseid. Do you know how annoying it is to catch Cheetah who has the lifelead and is just running away? Darkseid doesn't really have an answer there since we can just build meter between omega beams, and run away if he teleports.

Sure we gotta work harder, but that's fighting games. There will never be a game where every character works the same level for the same reward, that would be boring as fuck anyways. At the end of the day, I don't think Cheetah is the best character, but I think she's super fun, and has tools for daaaaaays. If the level of work you have to put in really bothers you, then fine. But the longer the game goes on, those who stick with one character do better than those who switch every month (Except sonic fox, but that's not a fair comparison tbh)

rant over, You're all great people. Please continue to enjoy fighting games, and if you want to keep maining cheetah, I'll be here.

PS. Rumor is no big patch until after evo
 
Saboteur-6

Saboteur-6

Filthy Casual
JesterSMX said:
I get my post came across as whiny but I truly feel I lose at the character select screen. You can sense that the optimism on this thread is on the decline because we're all coming to the same conclusion.

Discord is like a real time tym without trolls and thread derailing. It's pretty sweet tbh.
Click to expand...
Thanks. Is there a popular Cheetah Discord? I was on Discord around launch but uninstalled because there were just so many channels popping up that it was too difficult to keep a hold of.
 
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