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Thoughts on current state of tournament character selection (Adam/Aquaman)

K

kcd117

Noob
I'm not saying you are downplaying atro, I just believe you were playing him the wrong way. You sound like someone that lives and dies for the 50/50, your deleted post simply shows how limited is your view on the character. Pushblock is a thing against most presssure heavy characters, all this means for an atrocitus that knows what he is doing is that 1) If you don't wanna go into presure you can build a lot of meter making puddle unpunishable on block for most of the cast while doing some chip and 2) the worst case scenario is your opponent spending a bar to get rid of your pressure and it only wastes 1/3 of the trait, which means they gotta waste 2 to 3 bars to really avoid your pressure.

Honestly you are not ahead of anything like you are saying, if anything, I would say you have absolutely no clue about some really basic concepts I see every good atrocitus player applying to their game. Your opinion on the character can be throughlry detailed, but it doesn't make you less wrong about it.
 
Juggs

Juggs

Lose without excuses
Lead Moderator
Premium Supporter
alkipot said:
I did mention "low damage", but what else does Supergirl struggle with? What major flaws does she have that aren't over exaggerated? Maybe safety on a string or two? Cuz it sure ain't a struggle landing attacks consistently from literally anywhere on the screen. Fighting her is a mind game for the entire match, I just don't see how that's bad.
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Well first of all no one claims she's "bad". A character doesn't need to be bottom 5 to validate a small buff.

And here's what she struggles with:

- Very hard to build meter. Her projectile is a trait and only builds a tiny bit of meter on hit/block.

- Her strings aren't great. Only true plus string is 112 that is +2 but it has a gap in it, starts high, and has virtually no range. It is easily duckable so it's kinda pointless to use. Her best string, B12 while it has good range and is good in footsies and whiff punishing is -11 on block, even B123 which the 3 can't be special canceled, is -9 on block. Her B2, 1+3 is her only overhead, and it's -35 on block.

- She needs meter she hardly ever has to do mediocre damage. Even in the corner she does mediocre damage, since the float combos scale each time you float.

- Only way to make her strings safe is MB Ice Breath, which is -5. Regular Ice Breath is -20 while the extended version is -18. The reason MB Breath isn't that great is because while it does make her strings safe, she rarely has the bar for it. And wasting a resource as valuable as her meter really hurts her. Also, I believe canceling any string into Breath has a gap in it. Not 100% sure though.

- Her teleport is decent, but has 35 frames of startup, and is -24 on block. MB version is -25. For a lot of the quicker projectiles, she has to read them instead of react. If she reads it wrong and you block, full combo punish. The risk heavily outweighs the reward.

- Her restand string is +0, so kinda pointless to do. Only good in very specific situations. You're much better off going for a HDK and doing F3 mixups. It also starts high, so only ever used as a combo ender and there's much better options.

- Her wakeup is also not horrible, but is -29 on block. Can't combo off of it unless your opponent is in the corner and you MB it. And it's not advancing, it goes straight up. If blocked, you're screwed. This isn't a big negative for her but worth noting.

There's probably more I'm missing.

She has a lot of strengths as well, obviously.

- Good D2
- Great corner mixups
- Good at zoning, counter zoning and anti zoning
- Probably the best J1 in the game
- D1 is great and is a low
 
navaroNe

navaroNe

Nobody's afraid of Bruce Wayne
kabelfritz said:
nerfing now would be mere tier shifting with the same result just with other chars. we have seen scarecrow breaking through and should let it play out further.
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I disagree. The top 2 (bladam , aquaman ) are significantly more well equipped to deal with any of the cast they come up against and need to be brought down a bit.
 
T

TheDylbot

Noob
navaroNe said:
I disagree. The top 2 (bladam , aquaman ) are significantly more well equipped to deal with any of the cast they come up against and need to be brought down a bit.
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There is a major discrepancy I agree. I picked up bladam, and in ~10mins I had labbed a 50% (more I think) combo for 1 bar, on top of his easily mastered total screen control. By contrast, It took me several days to establish a strong combo/set play for my new fave, red hood - and even then his bnb combos hit for ~35ish% for 1 bar.

Adam should have strong damage, but having it so easy to execute and to net such a large amount (220ish dmg for exdf2 lul) is a bit excessive.

And I don't even know where to start with aquaman. This guy needs nerfing no if's but's or maybe's - before atrocitus gets fixed, before batman's dumb trait and ambiguous crossup gets looked at, aquaman needs to be fixed.

The mix of easy execution, high damage and very low flaws are seeing a downright saturation of nothing but bladam and aquaman, disagree if you want but there is a reason everyone is using these 2 characters more than any others, especially the top tier competitive guys.

/rant
 
SunsetBlvd

SunsetBlvd

Proven Nappa GOD, 100% VERIFIED Best Nappa NA
kcd117 said:
your deleted post simply shows how limited is your view on the character
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calm down young man. i deleted 3 posts that all explained basically the same thing, and i did it because i realized i've already said all of everything in those posts multiple times before in this thread. oh, and i also remembered that nowhere in the thread title does it say "an honest discussion about atrocitus". i actually do believe that a discussion about the recent top 8's needs to be had and that's the point of this thread.
 
SunsetBlvd

SunsetBlvd

Proven Nappa GOD, 100% VERIFIED Best Nappa NA
trufenix said:
SunsetBlvd must be the single greatest strategist of all time.
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i assume you're referring to the brilliance behind creating a "nerf aquaman/black adam" thread disguised as a "concern about top 8s" thread, while all along i was secretly building the greatest character downplay thread the nrs community has ever seen.

jk tho of course..
 
wsj515

wsj515

This is my billionth life cycle.
SunsetBlvd said:
unfortunately for this young man, this quote is the definition of "thinking highly of yourself" and assuming you're right. i've been smoking cuban montecristo's from my local smoke shop since i was 18. my go-to daily cigars are generally arturo fuente.

if you read carefully, you'd notice i didn't say you smoke cigars by inhaling. i said ed boon smokes cigars by inhaling.

i am an absolute asshole and an elitist, but my arguments are well thought out and essentially bulletproof. it's frustrating for many.
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Asshole, elitist, narcissist. The holy trifecta.
 
JustPressingButtons

JustPressingButtons

Clown
Zionix said:
General change - Players now generate less meter on firing projectiles or traps. Meter build remains same on hit. Moves with invincible frames on wake-up, can no longer be MB for follow-up or plus frames. D2 moves can't be special cancelled on block [except Bane] (still can be special cancelled on hit for combos for plus frames/set-ups or obviously on an Anti Air).
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This would hurt Joker more than anything tbh
 
DeftMonk

DeftMonk

Noob
All you guys saying joker has some magical counter to batman can you tell me what it is? When I watched that match I didnt see it. I just saw a dude who didnt know how to play against the joker and I think thats what sonic was hoping for: MU unfamiliarity since no one picks his crappy ass.
 
DeftMonk

DeftMonk

Noob
Juggs said:
Well first of all no one claims she's "bad". A character doesn't need to be bottom 5 to validate a small buff.

And here's what she struggles with:

- Very hard to build meter. Her projectile is a trait and only builds a tiny bit of meter on hit/block.

- Her strings aren't great. Only true plus string is 112 that is +2 but it has a gap in it, starts high, and has virtually no range. It is easily duckable so it's kinda pointless to use. Her best string, B12 while it has good range and is good in footsies and whiff punishing is -11 on block, even B123 which the 3 can't be special canceled, is -9 on block. Her B2, 1+3 is her only overhead, and it's -35 on block.

- She needs meter she hardly ever has to do mediocre damage. Even in the corner she does mediocre damage, since the float combos scale each time you float.

- Only way to make her strings safe is MB Ice Breath, which is -5. Regular Ice Breath is -20 while the extended version is -18. The reason MB Breath isn't that great is because while it does make her strings safe, she rarely has the bar for it. And wasting a resource as valuable as her meter really hurts her. Also, I believe canceling any string into Breath has a gap in it. Not 100% sure though.

- Her teleport is decent, but has 35 frames of startup, and is -24 on block. MB version is -25. For a lot of the quicker projectiles, she has to read them instead of react. If she reads it wrong and you block, full combo punish. The risk heavily outweighs the reward.

- Her restand string is +0, so kinda pointless to do. Only good in very specific situations. You're much better off going for a HDK and doing F3 mixups. It also starts high, so only ever used as a combo ender and there's much better options.

- Her wakeup is also not horrible, but is -29 on block. Can't combo off of it unless your opponent is in the corner and you MB it. And it's not advancing, it goes straight up. If blocked, you're screwed. This isn't a big negative for her but worth noting.

There's probably more I'm missing.

She has a lot of strengths as well, obviously.

- Good D2
- Great corner mixups
- Good at zoning, counter zoning and anti zoning
- Probably the best J1 in the game
- D1 is great and is a low
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To help this dude out I usually just play shit tier chars cuz I am a glutton for punishment and supergirl is usually the least of my problems. If you know her mixups they are super easy to block and you dont even need to really lab any counter for certain things other than block what hes goin for and pimp smack hard. All you have to do is guess right slightly more than 30-40% of the time and you will be ok because you can probably punish way harder than she could if she landed her gimmick.
 
wsj515

wsj515

This is my billionth life cycle.
DeftMonk said:
To help this dude out I usually just play shit tier chars cuz I am a glutton for punishment and supergirl is usually the least of my problems. If you know her mixups they are super easy to block and you dont even need to really lab any counter for certain things other than block what hes goin for and pimp smack hard. All you have to do is guess right slightly more than 30-40% of the time and you will be ok because you can probably punish way harder than she could if she landed her gimmick.
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To me she's one of those characters that's not a problem at all until they're taken online, where her sweep is magically plus on block and teleport is unreactable.
 
CrimsonShadow

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
wsj515 said:
To me she's one of those characters that's not a problem at all until they're taken online, where her sweep is magically plus on block and teleport is unreactable.
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(Sounds like Wifi)

In all seriousness though, if you have a decent connection these shouldn't be a problem.
 
H

headcrusher

Noob
On wifi Black adam has a 10-0 matchup on supergirl. Off of wifi its 9.5-0.5. Believe it or not, but Aquaman is 9-1 vs Supergirl on wifi. Maybe 7-3 off of wifi. Just pick up Black Adam.
 
wsj515

wsj515

This is my billionth life cycle.
CrimsonShadow said:
(Sounds like Wifi)

In all seriousness though, if you have a decent connection these shouldn't be a problem.
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I'm wired, can't control my opponents in ranked though. Could also be a combination of bad connection and me getting tilted when I get hit by a teleport I have no business getting hit by, that I swear I blocked.
 
Thundergodd

Thundergodd

Noob
navaroNe said:
Personally I'd kind of like to see them make some very minor changes to black Adam, aquaman, and batman before evo. I feel like right now is the best time to attract as many viewers and players as possible for these tournaments in order to attract more media attention to help our community grow. I feel like black Adam and aquaman are the two things holding this game back the most right now from being as hype as it should be. CEO top 8 was great , but let's not pretend that whiteboi wasn't our saviour because without him it would have been a far less exciting top 8 with nothing but aquaman , black adam, batman and superman. Also just to be clear I don't really think superman is a problem, I think he's in a pretty good spot right now
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Wait, wait....
Black Adam has no mix that are safe and his zoning options are negative af, meanwhile players like deadshot have safe 50/50 normals that stagger and zoning options. Not to mention superman is safe AS FUUUUUCK!!! His b2 is a 7 frame mid safe on block like wtf, he also has 3 INVICIBLE WAKE UPS, and trait that breaks armor meanwhile black adam has none and 1 50+ combo that is a bnb. And people wanna nerf BA??
 
Thundergodd

Thundergodd

Noob
Eddy Wang said:
This thread is terrible, blaming NRS because legacy characters are currently dominating, comparing Injustice 2 to Tekken Lmao

Tekken is a game where general mechanics can beat pretty much anything in the game even if you main the shittiest character for years, in tekken you play not only the character, but the player as well, and the game takes like 2 years to hit the consoles, so the balance is done in the arcades, for those who doesn't know, Shaheen and Claudio used to dominate in vanilla version with safe hopkicks and 50-50 out of the ass, guaranteed hits into 50-50 on grounded characters, shaheen slide was also hard to pick up.

There is nothing or anyone to blame, the game is developing just as fast, not far ago everyone was so worried about Deadshot and everyone quick jumped the gun into nerfing the character.

In my entire IGAU lifespan i've never seen Green Arrow Dominating Superman, saw that in the top 8 of CEO.


And to be honest as much as Black Adam is considered top or dominating, this game feels pretty balanced, pretty sure when the time comes there will be some obvious nerfs, but there is no one or nothing to blame here, just keep playing the game.

My wish list on the patch is just refining the input system nothing else.
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This x 100.
 
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