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Max plays lev01 Batman vs Lev20 Joker

Dankster Morgan

It is better this way
So I have no interest in using the stat changing aspect of gear, but I think EVERYONE is hyped about the aesthetic changes.

It's fucking awesome that my Robin will look different than everyone else's Robin. This is an amazing idea. A lot of these characters have been around for DECADES and have gone through a ton of looks through many eras and mixing and matching their looks with all of these styles is awesome. Getting a new piece of gear every single time you play a match is super cool. I hope MK11 has something similar to this, imagine customizing one of the more detailed fighters like D'Vorah, Kotal, Sub-Zero, or Tremor with virtually limitless combinations.

I think sometimes people like to find something to complain about. Being excited for something doesn't make you an idiot or a chump or an NRS dick rider or whatever.

Not to mention the most important part: all of this is optional. You can never touch the gear system and you can play in modes where your character will be completely un-changed, so calling this the worst idea in fighting games is beyond silly.
 
So, can you actuskl
So I have no interest in using the stat changing aspect of gear, but I think EVERYONE is hyped about the aesthetic changes.

It's fucking awesome that my Robin will look different than everyone else's Robin. This is an amazing idea. A lot of these characters have been around for DECADES and have gone through a ton of looks through many eras and mixing and matching their looks with all of these styles is awesome. Getting a new piece of gear every single time you play a match is super cool. I hope MK11 has something similar to this, imagine customizing one of the more detailed fighters like D'Vorah, Kotal, Sub-Zero, or Tremor with virtually limitless combinations.

I think sometimes people like to find something to complain about. Being excited for something doesn't make you an idiot or a chump or an NRS dick rider or whatever.

Not to mention the most important part: all of this is optional. You can never touch the gear system and you can play in modes where your character will be completely un-changed, so calling this the worst idea in fighting games is beyond silly.
Can you use gear, I'm talking about only aesthetically in ranked?
 

StormGoddess

Your mind tricks won't harm me!!!

Q&A: Injustice 2 and the balancing act of adding gear to a fighting



Chicago's own NetherRealm Studios is best known for its work on the long-running fighting game series Mortal Kombat, but in the space between Kombat outings the studio has also tried its hand at other projects.

One of those ventures, the 2013 DC Comics tie-in fighting game Injustice: Gods Among Us, seems to have done well enough for the studio that it's now poised to release a sequel next year. But Injustice 2 is interesting from a game developer's perspective because it takes an established fighting game chassis (based upon the Mortal Kombat games) and bolts on an item system that players can use to change the way their characters work.

In brief, players basically get loot drops at the end of every match that they can then choose to equip on characters in their roster (everyone from Aquaman to Wonder Woman), changing those characters' stats. It's not totally unheard for a fighting game to include items that change characters' stats (see Street Fighter x Tekken's "Gems" system) but it is rare, and notoriously tricky to pull off without upsetting the game's balance.

NetherRealm's Adam Urbano served as lead producer on the original Injustice, and he's reprising his role for the sequel. At E3 this week, Urbano chatted with Gamasutra a bit about why, exactly, NetherRealm is making another Injustice game and what he's learned about how to build a balanced, tournament-grade fighting game.

Why are you making Injustice 2? What shortcomings did you see in the first game?

Urbano: One of the things is, we wanted the game to be accessible. We wanted Injustice to be something casual people could jump in and play. Thats why you saw the environments and the interactions and a lot of the one-button things you could do that just looked powerful. Unfortunately, it's extra difficult in just the short amount of time in the [training] mode in Injustice to really get good at things. So the gear system is a fundamental redesign to address things like that.

The goal is that you start out with a much more accessible easier-to-play character, and then you're going to grow with that character, over weeks and weeks and weeks if you choose, giving you a chance to customize it and make it play the way you want it. Actually getting to learn how to play, as well. Instead of just presenting you with 26 or so completed characters from the start, this is 26 sort of...character templates, for players to take and turn into what they want.

That sounds incredibly tricky to balance.

You correctly identified the core issue: we've been working on it for years. Throughout development ofInjustice 1, really, because that's when we started thinking about how to do this. So this has been in development for a long time. You can expect a sort of arena system, like you'd see in something like a MOBA, that will give players a chance to use the gear but still keep everything balanced.

So balancing really involves the modes, the gear itself, and then making sure the changes players can do with gear and acquiring specials and all that are balanced. To do that, we have a dedicated little team that focuses on the tournament crowd. Because we love them; it's part of our studio culture at this point. And it's really hard, it's our great challenge.

Wait, how did studying MOBA design influence this game's development?

I think MOBAs, RPGs, this is a game where we've looked at all the genres we love to play and tried to integrate the elements in a way that makes sense for a fighting game, for the first time.

How do you adapt those elements to a fighting game?

So, itemization. It became something that....we had to hire experts, and it's really a core piece of the game and a whole new skillset.

Let's circle back to the tournament crowd for a minute. What is it, do you think, that defines a tournament-grade fighting game?

I think it has to be easy to learn and take a lifetime to master. I know that's kind of a platitude, but for the most part it's...can I get in there, can I learn my specials, can I beat up on somebody, if I I'm new to the genre. And then as I go, can I learn some of the enhanced moves, things like footsies, and other advanced elements of the game that probably mean nothing to most people.

One of our goals is to get people to learn and understand that throughout their play experience, so that they can do those sorts of things. Because there are a ton of people that play our games that don't know it's there, and we spend years designing all these intricate details that are so fun once you get them. But we have to start teaching people that they're there. We have to give people progression.

How do you ease players into the deeper intricacies of your fighting game, as a developer?

So...it's time. Time is the variable we've never had before. We've tried training modes, as many have; we've tried many different things, as many other developers have. But we tend to be asking people to go into a separate mode, that's typically a short experience, to learn to play, and then we say "okay now here's the actual game."

So with Injustice 2 we'ev taken that time variable away and we're designing it so that people can play characters for weeks, through all sorts of different single-player and multiplayer experiences, and you'll progress. You'll be able to try out different things. You'll be able to spend the time that other genres give you to train, finally, in the fighting genre. Without the time, it's a very hard problem to bring players up speed on a decade of evolution in the fighting game genre.

Fair enough. What's one key piece of advice you'd give to fellow developers looking to build a great fighting game?

My generic answer is risk. One of the things that developers tend to do, as time passes, is assume things are the ways they need to be and never go back and rethink them. A good example of that is like, holding back to block in the first Injustice. It was unthinkable for us at the time; it seemed so weird for us!

Yeah, if you're coming from Mortal Kombat you're supposed to have a block button.

Right! And so that was a decision where we said okay we've done this forever, let's change it up. And that worked out, so on Injustice 2 we were like okay, anyone who makes assumptions on this team, you have to go take a time out and come back. Because everything is up for debate. So we started talking about things like back to block, that came up again, but also things like the new tech roll, how and why we wanted characters to evolve. Every single thing in a fighting game, we went back and said...do we have to have blocking? Do we have to have running? What do we have to have? And then we rebuilt from there.

That sounds like it could turn into a self-destructive loop at some point. Like, you have to eventually ask yourself what you're even making.

Yeah. Well, it is Injustice, to begin with. So we wanted to have similar gameplay: transitions, super moves, all those core elements. Because those are the things people loved, when we went back and looked at it.

But to be a fighting game, competitively, really what you need are: the basic attacks, two people one on one, with semi-equal health bars. And we did experiments from there. And at the end of the day we still loved how Injustice played, but we wanted to incorporate an entire new overarching system that kind of tweaks and pokes and changes all that basic stuff.

So if there really were no sacred cows during development, you must have been trying to distill the core elements of a fighting game. Why add in a whole new overarching system of gear?

The item system is essentially choice. In a fighting game, people always ask "what's the roster?" It's a valid question, but in this particular instance it's way more than that. There's the roster, but it's more than that: it's your roster. Batman could play a million different ways -- with some balance built into the overall equation -- so if you love Batman, you could just play Batman a million different ways, forever. Characters have completely different gear, different styles, different classes.

Seems like a handful of god-tier builds would bubble to the top. How do you keep players from clustering around a small number of optimal builds?

We have a balance team for that. We're also going to have a live team in place, and their job is to sit there throughout the lifespan of the game and do nothing but work with pro players, listen to the community, and make adjustments on the fly.

So we've actually increased the frequency with which we can update, even from what we could do withMortal Kombat X, so we can make changes to these thousands and thousands of pieces of gear, the special abilities, and so forth.

We're at a point now where microtransactions and post-launch DLC are an expected part of big-budget game design. How do you balance a gear-based fighting game, knowing you might add additional paid gear options down the road?

The idea is the game is going to have thousands, tens of thousands, of pieces of gear on disc at launch. The thing we've always done is try and get as much content as humanly possible, up until the last second we have to submit. So at this point, we're not even thinking about that sort of microtransaction DLC stuff. There's going to be enough content. There's stuff to level up, change your character, customize your build, for weeks and weeks and weeks.
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/275114/QA_Injustice_2_and_the_balancing_act_of_adding_gear_to_a_fighting_game.php
 

WATCHD0G

Noob
You really wanna do this?

Okay then.



This is one of the most anticipated games this year and the sales will easily be in the millions. Out of the millions of people to play this game maybe about 10% or less of them are going to be seriously involved in the competitive scene and I'm being way too fucking generous with that estimate. That 90% or so remaining will get a shitload of value out of this system and this is by no means a "tiny fraction."



The gear is dropped in more than just ranked, it's dropped in player matches and plenty of other modes besides including single player modes, i.e. multiverse which they've shown off recently. This has been mentioned quite regularly if you'd been paying attention to the streams and everything else they've said about the game. This shit is going to get used by these millions of casuals like we've all said a billion times in this thread so get off this bullshit you're riding.



It isn't a waste of time at all, like we've said people ARE going to use this shit. Hell even the competitive players can throw it on for casual games just for shits and giggles as we've already seen back in the beta. Once again the idea that of "makes strong players stronger and weak players weaker" is bullshit because of the way the matchmaking works in player matches, you will be matched with someone of equal gear. Again gear is disabled for ranked matches, because y'know, IT'S FUCKING RANKED, everything is meant to be on a level playing field. This has been said on stream before and the fact that you deny this just shows how little you actually know or understand about the game.



That alone should tell you something, the majority of what you've posted has been stupid and basically negative for the sake of negativity. I cannot believe you have been so dense in this thread. I shouldn't have wasted my time replying to such stupid posts but really you should just stop.

Look it's really fucking simple, if you want to play with gear, play with gear, if you don't then don't. Even easier, if you don't like the game then don't play it and don't go shitting on it just because other people like it.
i just love the fact that you began with
you really wanna do this?
i was like
 

WATCHD0G

Noob
bit seriously, 2 things
1) I enjoy Max's videos from time to time, but the guy needs to explain things better. he should know that a majority of his fans will take his word for it because they believe his word is gospel. so saying how it would be impossible to beat someone with higher stats is very misleading because the match would not even happen in the first place

2) to the OP, bro just don't buy the game ok?
 

Raiderhorn

White Lotus
In addition to me liking competitive, I also like the casual aspect, and tbh I'm going to be using the gear related things in offline modes like the Multiverse. I like going for achievements and intend to complete them all for this game, and having the gear to help me out in situations like in Max's vid, it'll make it much easier on myself. Keep in mind too Max's vid is the most extreme case (literally, level 1 and NO gear).

Having the gear for offline modes adds more replay-ability for me to those modes. I feel like I'd actually want to play Multiverse mode a lot for Motherboxes and other loot cause I can get some pretty cool looking gear for cosmetic aspects in the online. I found myself stopping Living Towers/Faction Wars in MKX pretty quick and the bonus single player challenges in Injustice I never played a second time.
 

EntropicByDesign

It's all so very confusing.
I mean..

I love that gear has a cosmetic effect, that is so dope.. and yes, geared vs gearless is going to be rough - but so? You dont have to play those matches and it only effects you if you WANT IT TO.

I DO wish they had done something with the extra skill system that the competitive community could make use of, because the ability to add in key skills to balance bad MUs would be a HUGE competitive boon - but obviously the skills would have to be unattached from gear and balanced for competitive play.
 

EntropicByDesign

It's all so very confusing.
Actually it is.. you can not sit there and say there is nothing wrong with this system when only a tiny fraction will use it. That is ridiculous.

.
You know that the tiny fraction of the Inj2 players will be *US* right? The competitive scene is a very very very small % of initial players and buyers for a game like Injustice. Not all FGs, but Inj is meant very much to gather in that casual audience - Just like MKX. The system will be used by casual players having fun and not concerned with competitive play in the sense we mean it.. So in fact, the gear system is likely to be VERY widely used and wasn't a waste of time at all. NRS will generate sales off it and that brings players into the game. The huge majority of those players will play casually and enjoy themselves and then wander off to next months big game or just get bored.. but a few will wonder WTF the deal is with the high level play thing, and they will disable gear and wander into ranked and maybe, just maybe, we gain another member of OUR little community.. Not just the TYM community, but the FGC in general.

Gear doesn't effect you if you don't want it to, so I don't get the hate. I was SUPER skeptical about it until I read it was disabled in ranked and was a totally avoidable system. Since then I see it as a means to drive sales, increase engagement and interest and do something a little different with a FG. We need new blood in the scene to maintain it and the gear system is going to be a nice design bridge to ease players into a FG environment and MAYBE funnel some of them into the FGC as a whole. FAR more players are going to engage with the gear system in the beginning than are going to ignore it. We forget pretty often just how *tiny* we are in terms of % of population. We help drive a game's continued existence, but we account for VERY little during the initial launch.

TL;DR - Gear is fine. Tons of people are going to engage with the system in a meaningful way.
 
0

00001

Guest
You know that the tiny fraction of the Inj2 players will be *US* right? The competitive scene is a very very very small % of initial players and buyers for a game like Injustice. Not all FGs, but Inj is meant very much to gather in that casual audience - Just like MKX. The system will be used by casual players having fun and not concerned with competitive play in the sense we mean it.. So in fact, the gear system is likely to be VERY widely used and wasn't a waste of time at all. NRS will generate sales off it and that brings players into the game. The huge majority of those players will play casually and enjoy themselves and then wander off to next months big game or just get bored.. but a few will wonder WTF the deal is with the high level play thing, and they will disable gear and wander into ranked and maybe, just maybe, we gain another member of OUR little community.. Not just the TYM community, but the FGC in general.

Gear doesn't effect you if you don't want it to, so I don't get the hate. I was SUPER skeptical about it until I read it was disabled in ranked and was a totally avoidable system. Since then I see it as a means to drive sales, increase engagement and interest and do something a little different with a FG. We need new blood in the scene to maintain it and the gear system is going to be a nice design bridge to ease players into a FG environment and MAYBE funnel some of them into the FGC as a whole. FAR more players are going to engage with the gear system in the beginning than are going to ignore it. We forget pretty often just how *tiny* we are in terms of % of population. We help drive a game's continued existence, but we account for VERY little during the initial launch.

TL;DR - Gear is fine. Tons of people are going to engage with the system in a meaningful way.

I agree with most of this and would like to add to it.

I'm not a fan of the gear system. I've admitted that since it was announced and have continued to dislike it the more I learn about it. It's casual oriented, it's an avenue for microtransactions and it takes away development time for the actual core fighting game. I don't like it even a little bit. However, after I said "I'm not going to play with gear on," that was it. I don't think about gear, I don't often talk about gear, to me it's a waste of time and an aspect of the game that I am truly and completely uninterested in.

I mention this because there are an abundance of people who share my disinterest in gear, and can't let it go. Who actually nitpick everything about the system that they are not forced to take part in. And I just can't wrap my head around it. It's like these people are begging to argue about nothing and show anger toward an aspect of the game that doesn't, or rather shouldn't, concern them. Not just here, here it just seems to be Jynks, but it's on Reddit and in YouTube comment threads and Twitch chats. I wish that these people would understand that gear is a game feature aimed at the 5+ million casuals who will buy the game, play it for a month and then move on. Simply put: you don't have to like gear, but to actively debate its place in the game and spew bullshit like "the gear system is probably the worst idea to be added to any fighting game in so long" is absolutely ridiculous and all you're truly doing is making an ass out of yourself. Stop.

Regarding the video, for fuck's sake this was supposed to be a simple showcase. A fun challenge for attendees. This is gear at its most extreme and no one will ever have an actual match like this, especially if you dislike gear and don't play with it anyway.

Do keep in mind though that when I say I dislike gear, I mean the stats and additional moves that gear provides. Regarding the aesthetic changes I think gear is fucking brilliant and I will spend a ludicrous amount of time dressing up my barbies.

TL;DR - @EntropicByDesign and @myri are right, this video is gear pushed to its most extreme and people should stop being so angry about an optional feature that wasn't designed for them.
 

RoboCop

The future of law enforcement.
Administrator
Premium Supporter
you guys have got to be kidding me...

So you are saying..

1) You will be playign online ranked matched WITH gear enabled?
2) You will also be playing and practising using Gear Moves?

Is that what you guys are saying?
You can still wear the gear without the stats or moves. So yeah, I'm really looking forward to seeing what kind of awesome and ridiculous costumes I can put together. It sounds like a ton of fun and it won't affect my gameplay in the slightest.

I thought this shit was cleared up months ago.
 
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YoungTeezy 305

Work Hard Play Hard
I, for one, am looking forward to playing my friends with gear on as much as competitively. I think that it can create a mind game of gear picks and counterpicks that will make this game feel fresh long after it releases.
 

Shaka

Tier Whore.
Max target audience are casuals, this is a competitive gaming forum why even bother with him I wonder?
 

God Confirm

We're all from Earthrealm. If not, cool pic brah.
eh, that's disappointing. But even now I don't really mind it. We'll probably all be playing the game 100x more than casual players anyway (and unlocking more gear in the process). so if casuals are constantly opting to go for gear they're likely only making it harder on themselves.
yeah add to that our knowledge of fighting games will make it a lot more obvious what the good gear abilities are and aren't. e.g They can have their Deadshot rocket jump while I'm hitting with that Flash insta air Divekick overhead that leads to full combo
 

Saboteur-6

Filthy Casual
The video is just Max doing one of the Multiverse quests that's deliberately supposed to be stupid imbalanced right? Like that's the whole challenge for this particular quest vs the Joker. How is this reflective of actual PvP gear matches that'll be matchmade to find gear appropriate opponents?
 
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ImperatrixSindel

Too bad YOU... will DIE!
The video is just Max doing one of the Multiverse quests that's deliberately supposed to be stupid imbalanced right? Like that's the whole challenge for this particular quest vs the Joker. How is this reflective of actual PvP gear matches that'll be matchmade to find gear appropriate opponents?
Yes, Jynks basically posted an MKX Invasion Boss and went LOOK HOW UNBALANCED THIS IS!!!