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Juggs

Lose without excuses
Lead Moderator
This is completely false and I don't know why you keep saying it. The actual shield bash not including the dash is 15 frames which is unreactable considering how slow dashes are. It is the exact same speed as warlords head butt but warlords is completely punishable. Don't you see the problem in this?
Conq's shield bash is definitely reactable.
 
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Conq's shield bash is definitely reactable.
No it's not, the dash before the move makes it reactable however the actual move is not. This is why people do the mixup between dash shield bash, empty dash or dash gb.
The actual move, like head butt, is 15 frames, which is an easy block but an impossible dash due to the tracking and the startup on dash. Try dashing pks lights on reaction of them coming out. Now imagine that with more tracking. It's unreactable
 
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LOL most played fighting game. I'm sorry as a PC gamer myself if you can read between the lines I can only say that you're a fool.

Of course FH beats other fighting games on steam, it's garbage 30 FPS on console. KI is xbox and windows store exclusive, SF is PS4 and PC mostly played on PS4, etc. Learn to make some apples to apples comparisons.

For Honor post the new game hype has tanked hard on steam. These are numbers from today: 8958 Peak, 6,042 currently playing. It's currently ranked 60th in activity behind world of tanks, clicker heroes, counter strike source, age of empires 2, mount and blade, etc.

http://imgur.com/a/xzWTC

The difference between a game with steady numbers and a game that's heavily bleeding players:

http://imgur.com/a/sf8bz
 

Juggs

Lose without excuses
Lead Moderator
No it's not, the dash before the move makes it reactable however the actual move is not. This is why people do the mixup between dash shield bash, empty dash or dash gb.
The actual move, like head butt, is 15 frames, which is an easy block but an impossible dash due to the tracking and the startup on dash. Try dashing pks lights on reaction of them coming out. Now imagine that with more tracking. It's unreactable
It's definitely reactable, like I said. Not easy, but watch actual good players play against Conq and you'll see what I mean.
 

GAV

Resolution through knowledge and resolve.
This is completely false and I don't know why you keep saying it. The actual shield bash not including the dash is 15 frames which is unreactable considering how slow dashes are. It is the exact same speed as warlords head butt but warlords is completely punishable. Don't you see the problem in this?
Its very reactable.

It starts up fast, but comes in slow - and all you have to do is dash before it connects in any direction. From point blank, its quick - but from a step away, its not. You're looking at the start-up and trying to end the argument there, but there is more to it.

PK's unreactable is actually unreactable and you must act appropriately. Its fast from start to finish.
 

Juggs

Lose without excuses
Lead Moderator
Its very reactable.

It starts up fast, but comes in slow - and all you have to do is dash before it connects in any direction. From point blank, its quick - but from a step away, its not. You're looking at the start-up and trying to end the argument there, but there is more to it.

PK's unreactable is actually unreactable and you must act appropriately. Its fast from start to finish.
@Basic Stupidity I see players like iSkys dodging the shoulder bash from Conq nearly 100% of the time on PC. On console all these shenanigans are much harder to deal with. You can visually tell the difference in how much easier it is on PC compared to console. I actually prefer console because of this, less defensive this way.
 
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Its very reactable.

It starts up fast, but comes in slow - and all you have to do is dash before it connects in any direction. From point blank, its quick - but from a step away, its not. You're looking at the start-up and trying to end the argument there, but there is more to it.

PK's unreactable is actually unreactable and you must act appropriately. Its fast from start to finish.
This made little to no sense. Startup refers to how long it takes till the attack is active or in other words how long you have to react. That means it takes the 'connect' into count

The only argument you have here is that it's easier to dodge from far because the initial active frames don't have much range
 
@Basic Stupidity I see players like iSkys dodging the shoulder bash from Conq nearly 100% of the time on PC. On console all these shenanigans are much harder to deal with. You can visually tell the difference in how much easier it is on PC compared to console. I actually prefer console because of this, less defensive this way.
I have the game on pc it's not nearly as different as people say it just looks more fluid. When you see iskys dodge it you see him reacting to the dodge or making a soft read. He is not physically reacting to the shield bash because it's unreactable
 

Juggs

Lose without excuses
Lead Moderator
I have the game on pc it's not nearly as different as people say it just looks more fluid. When you see iskys dodge it you see him reacting to the dodge or making a soft read. He is not physically reacting to the shield bash because it's unreactable
orochi's zone is reactable 15 frames, his top light reactable 15 frames, his feints end at 15 frames but theres no point if the opponent doesnt go for parry.
So which is it, Basic? Is 15 frames reactable or not?
 

GAV

Resolution through knowledge and resolve.
@Basic Stupidity I see players like iSkys dodging the shoulder bash from Conq nearly 100% of the time on PC. On console all these shenanigans are much harder to deal with. You can visually tell the difference in how much easier it is on PC compared to console. I actually prefer console because of this, less defensive this way.
In mirror matchups, I don't worry about the bash because I know I can slip it on reaction - and I'm on console. Now, I may recognize it sooner than most because I play him, but given time everyone will be there.

This is a brand new kind of game. The meta isn't what its going to be yet.

I eat PK lights all day by the way. They are totally unreactable for me.
 

GAV

Resolution through knowledge and resolve.
This made little to no sense. Startup refers to how long it takes till the attack is active or in other words how long you have to react. That means it takes the 'connect' into count

The only argument you have here is that it's easier to dodge from far because the initial active frames don't have much range
My argument is looking at what they are and applying common sense. Tapping any direction to avoid a slow advancing attack is easier than blocking the correctly with three ways to block something quicker.

Your argument is smoke and mirrors.
 

Juggs

Lose without excuses
Lead Moderator
I already went over this... changing your guard and blocking an attack takes a lot less time than dodging an attack.
So you're 100% positive dodging is the only way to deal with Conqs shield bash? There's not a single thing else you can do to beat it other than dodge?
 

Gesture Required Ahead

Get on that hook
What I want is well enough to be left alone.

I don't want heavy-handed nerfs because the game is too new and it would alienate players. Even the best players see this game through established fighter eyes and this game is different. There is no clear vision yet. The best way is to give the low tiers new tools to work with rather than nerfing the high tiers.
You need both. Otherwise 1 of 2 things will happen:
  1. Tier shifting
  2. Nothing changes
Tier shifting can still happen if both is applied, of course. But that's why small tweaks is better than overbuffing or gutting characters. Best case scenario is a tweak in the game's mechanics.

Its as much a MOBA as it is a fighting game.
What are your arguments? In what way other than having minions is FH a MOBA? Does that make Titanfall also a MOBA? What are game genres? My favorite card game is Injustice
 
In mirror matchups, I don't worry about the bash because I know I can slip it on reaction - and I'm on console. Now, I may recognize it sooner than most because I play him, but given time everyone will be there.

This is a brand new kind of game. The meta isn't what its going to be yet.

I eat PK lights all day by the way. They are totally unreactable for me.
The pks lights and shield bash are literally the exact same frames only you have more time to block the attack than dodge it. You are dodging the dodge on reaction you are not dodging the bash and this proves it
 
So you're 100% positive dodging is the only way to deal with Conqs shield bash? There's not a single thing else you can do to beat it other than dodge?
There is not a single defensive action you can do. You can throw out an attack every time you see it coming or after a dash but then you could get baited and parried. You could dash the dash every time but then you could get baited and punished. It's the or one of the strongest moves in the game
 

GAV

Resolution through knowledge and resolve.
The pks lights and shield bash are literally the exact same frames only you have more time to block the attack than dodge it. You are dodging the dodge on reaction you are not dodging the bash and this proves it
Startup frames are all you are pointing at, but the quickness of the actual attacks are different. Shield Bash advances slowly while PKs attacks reach their end immediately. I know you know you're wrong, but you cling to your argument because you hope it will get you what you want. You want Conq neutered while PK goes barely touched. Its so obvious.
 
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Startup frames are all you are pointing at, but the quickness of the actual attacks are different. Shield Bash advances slowly while PKs attacks reach their end immediately. I know you know you're wrong, but you cling to your argument because you hope it will get you what you want. You want Conq neutered while OK goes barely touched. Its so obvious.
I already addressed this claim of yours go back and read it. Start up frames are how quick an attack takes to hit or how long it takes till active frames.
The only argument you have here is that conq may have shorter ranged active frames in the beginning of his bash which is irrelevant if a conq just gets close to you.
The next part of your statement has to be the most misguided statement I've ever read.
 

Juggs

Lose without excuses
Lead Moderator
There is not a single defensive action you can do. You can throw out an attack every time you see it coming or after a dash but then you could get baited and parried. You could dash the dash every time but then you could get baited and punished. It's the or one of the strongest moves in the game
So you can throw out lights to beat it, it doesn't HAVE to be dodged. Conq can't cancel the shield bash like Wardens shoulder bash can he?
 
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So you can throw out lights to beat it, it doesn't HAVE to be dodged. Conq can't cancel the shield bash like Wardens shoulder bash can he?
Yes, if you have a 15 frame attack and you react attack a dodge you'll punish the bash. But again this can be baited into raw dashes and then parries.

Wardens bash is much slower than conqs that's why he can cancel it