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A Poll and a Plea: Make Stance Switch Great for the First Time Ever

Do you want this mechanic in future NRS games?

  • Yes

    Votes: 22 50.0%

  • No (Please give a reason in the comments)

    Votes: 22 50.0%
  • Total voters
    44
Q

Quan Chihuahua

Noob
24K said:
I think when you are coming up with ideas to include in the game you need to consider high level players. And what I expect from high level players is frame perfect buttons. So a sweep would trade like @Undeadjim has stated. Parry's were thrown out all over the place. When you learn the timing you have learnt the timing. SF4 had one frame links that even mid level players were never seen dropping. It just becomes the way the game is played and players pick up on the timing subconsciously and it will be used non stop to trade out against some invincible animation of a character turning around.

I kind of like stance switch. I use it all the time. If I want to see some boobies, I can see some boobies. If I want to see some bum, I can see some bum. It really doesn't have to have any relevance to anything other than T and A.

Just consider the reason its there. If it wasn't, there would be a button that doesn't do anything at all when its pressed. A taunt would be a more useful button, but I would still rather tea bag because it's more irritating than somebody using a taunt button. Taunt buttons have never been done well. Some games have used them to build meter. But using them slows the action down. Tea bags are fast. And its all about my balls and your face. Think about it. My balls..... Your face.
Click to expand...
It would not trade. 3 invincibility frames are invincible to 3 active frames. If a move only has 3 active frames, that means it's recovering after that point. So all its active frames whiffed but your d3's active frames haven't even begun yet because it only has invincibility on START UP, not on its active frames. D3s usually have 7 to 10 start up frames, after which the d3 finishes starting up and becomes active, meaning it receives a hitbox at that point. So do you guys see why it wouldn't trade yet? The problem is that you're not thinking about the difference between active frames and start up frames.

As for the rest of what you said. Stance switch could not possibly be abused. It would have to be done on a read most of the time. If your read is off by 2 frames you get launched. Not only that but if the string has multiple quick succeeding hits, you'd have to stance switch perfectly multiple times in a row, and you have no idea what string they'll use. It wouldn't even work on lows or d1s. It doesn't matter if you have the timing down if you can't react. Using them on reaction to strings though should be more common, and that's fine because it serves a purpose in adding a defensive option to counter great advancing mid strings. Still very difficult and risky though and the leniency window would still often be less than SF3's 6 frames.
 
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Undeadjim

Undeadjim

Green Lantern Corps.
Quan Chihuahua said:
It would not trade. 3 invincibility frames are invincible to 3 active frames. If a move only has 3 active frames, that means it's recovering after that point. So all its active frames whiffed but your d3's active frames haven't even begun yet because it only has invincibility on START UP, not on its active frames. D3s usually have 7 to 10 start up frames, after which the d3 finishes starting up and becomes active, meaning it receives a hitbox at that point. So do you guys see why it wouldn't trade yet? The problem is that you're not thinking about the difference between active frames and start up frames.
Click to expand...
So here are the problems here, in your initial post you suggest these invincibility frames would be added to counter strings and I can only presume steal turns, you've come up with 3 frames based on your estimate of 7-10 frames of startup. The argument you're proposing here is that it couldn't possibly trade because it would get hit before it is active which in some situations would be correct, but considering we are talking in hypotheticals here I mashed out my 10 frame startup sweep, when I was -8 with you going into into you 8 frame low. I as a result, I had 3 frames of invincibility when your low went active I didn't get hit as a result and now 7 frames later both my sweep and the hypothetical second section of your string is active and we trade. I could easily take frames here and there and alter the outcome.

I didn't explain this as clear as I could in my other posts but I will explain it the best I can now, this doesn't help the game in anyway, it is going to create multiple situations like that that simply removes any kind of turn based offence and defense in a very lazy, very silly kind of way.

Furthermore, before you contest that it is an option to counter gaps in strings and other things of the like we have a universal tool in backdashes, and if you're thinking about the use in a corner situation you should be limited given you are in the corner.

Lastly, it would make the game look dumb. If during a tournament you see Superman full screen super into Supergirl blowing ice and it whiffing it is going to be super anti-climatic. What this also means is that newer players are going to presented with a situation that makes no sense, fans of the DC universe are going to presented with a situation where a sweep is more powerful than the Man of Steel. And what this leads me to is the biggest point that is this idea would not be FUN for both competitive and casual players.

TLDR:
Does it make sweeps more interesting - No it makes them all universal.
Does it make turns more interesting - No it makes them more random.
Does it make sense visually - No you are giving vanilla moves the power of a dragon punch.
 
Q

Quan Chihuahua

Noob
Undeadjim said:
So here are the problems here, in your initial post you suggest these invincibility frames would be added to counter strings and I can only presume steal turns, you've come up with 3 frames based on your estimate of 7-10 frames of startup. The argument you're proposing here is that it couldn't possibly trade because it would get hit before it is active which in some situations would be correct, but considering we are talking in hypotheticals here I mashed out my 10 frame startup sweep, when I was -8 with you going into into you 8 frame low. I as a result, I had 3 frames of invincibility when your low went active I didn't get hit as a result and now 7 frames later both my sweep and the hypothetical second section of your string is active and we trade. I could easily take frames here and there and alter the outcome.

I didn't explain this as clear as I could in my other posts but I will explain it the best I can now, this doesn't help the game in anyway, it is going to create multiple situations like that that simply removes any kind of turn based offence and defense in a very lazy, very silly kind of way.

Furthermore, before you contest that it is an option to counter gaps in strings and other things of the like we have a universal tool in backdashes, and if you're thinking about the use in a corner situation you should be limited given you are in the corner.

Lastly, it would make the game look dumb. If during a tournament you see Superman full screen super into Supergirl blowing ice and it whiffing it is going to be super anti-climatic. What this also means is that newer players are going to presented with a situation that makes no sense, fans of the DC universe are going to presented with a situation where a sweep is more powerful than the Man of Steel. And what this leads me to is the biggest point that is this idea would not be FUN for both competitive and casual players.

TLDR:
Does it make sweeps more interesting - No it makes them all universal.
Does it make turns more interesting - No it makes them more random.
Does it make sense visually - No you are giving vanilla moves the power of a dragon punch.
Click to expand...
Brilliant post, I see your point now. I agree then, sweeps with invincibility is a no-no, the benefits don't outweigh the drawbacks. I'm just trying to brainstorm additional ways to open up low risk low reward defense into the footsie meta of the game because I like mechanics that force players to be more cautious in the push and pull of offense and defense. Air teching is exactly the kind of mechanic I like but it can only be used rarely because of the high cost, so I'd just like to see something cheap but high skill requiring that works in a similar light.
 
Eddy Wang

Eddy Wang

Skarlet scientist
One button invincicbility frame is a bad idea, definitely will turn the game into a new cluster fuck and ppl will exploit the shit out of it, wakeup normals, fullscreen mids with 3f invincibility.

I assume the plea for this has to do something the way MKX pokes works.

Stance switch is a good button now, no longer messes up wakeup timings and such since is a complete separated button for DWU.

There are other ways to regulate pokes, or other things inside NRS game.

Like a crush system, since pokes are that safe and low profiling and super fast, have crushing move that hovers it and punish its not a bad idea.

Also i think its time to start adding, Strike invincibility, throw invincibility, and projectile invincibility proprieties in the game

A move with strike invincibility is only invulnerable to strikes but loses to throws and projectiles
A move with projectile invincibility its only invulnerable against projectiles, but loses to throws and strikes
A move with Throw invincibility its only invulnerable to throws but loses to projectiles and strikes.

This would save NRS so many headache and would actually add more variety on attack, defense and counters itself rather than giving every move armor as a defense mechanism which then is used to attack and steal turns anyway, because then ppl don't even respect frametraps and armor out of every possible gap and when there is meter drain in the game they complain because its a glitch.

I think it would be super interesting if future NRS games had these things, and maybe bring back the meter drain mechanic, but not as a glitch, anyone who armors out of a frame trap while the plus frames are still there, doesn't loses the entire bar, but 15% off that bar to penalize immediate breakers and armor mashing would be super satisfying.
 
Eddy Wang

Eddy Wang

Skarlet scientist
One button invincicbility frame is a bad idea, definitely will turn the game into a new cluster fuck and ppl will exploit the shit out of it, wakeup normals, fullscreen mids with 3f invincibility.

I assume the plea for this has to do something the way MKX pokes works.

Stance switch is a good button now, no longer messes up wakeup timings and such since is a complete separated button for DWU.

There are other ways to regulate pokes, or other things inside NRS game.

Like a crush system, since pokes are that safe and low profiling and super fast, have crushing move that hovers it and punish its not a bad idea.

Also i think its time to start adding, Strike invincibility, throw invincibility, and projectile invincibility proprieties in the game

A move with strike invincibility is only invulnerable to strikes but loses to throws and projectiles
A move with projectile invincibility its only invulnerable against projectiles, but loses to throws and strikes
A move with Throw invincibility its only invulnerable to throws but loses to projectiles and strikes.

This would save NRS so many headache and would actually add more variety on attack, defense and counters itself rather than giving every move armor as a defense mechanism which then is used to attack and steal turns anyway, because then ppl don't even respect frametraps and armor out of every possible gap and when there is meter drain in the game they complain because its a glitch.

I think it would be super interesting if future NRS games had these things, and maybe bring back the meter drain mechanic, but not as a glitch, anyone who armors out of a frame trap while the plus frames are still there, doesn't loses the entire bar, but 15% off that bar to penalize immediate breakers and armor mashing would be super satisfying.
 
24K

24K

Noob
llabslb said:
Not everybody is a great meme like you my good sir
Click to expand...
No meme sir, just somebody who uses the button. For the delay. And for a reason previously stated.

I did accidentally give some thought to the matter however. If the only reason you want to get rid of stance switch is because the button is being wasted on something then there could be tons of options other than some game changing mechanic.

Option one. A short hop.:
Instead of pressing up and doing a full jump you could grab stance switch and get a hop that goes up enough that you can avoid lows. But it isn't a full jump so you don't get an over head off of it. And you can be thrown out of the short hop. Adds something to mess around with. But ultimately doesn't change the game.

Option two. A different interactable button.:
Using the second interactable would do something different. For instance, instead of throwing something forward it could be thrown up diagonally. Ending up with situations where you have thrown something expecting a jump in and you will have caught your opponent out of the air. And as long as it doesn't juggle into a combo it wont be game destroying. Then in situations where you have used the edge of the stage to jump out of the corner, the second button will have no different effect. So it wont change the escape option, and your opponent can still read your escape and neutral jump punch you.

Option three. Another option.:
Insert different option here.

There are three fun alternatives. Wont change any games, wont break any games, can't be abused or under used anymore than the way they are used now. And it is just better because I said so.
 
24K

24K

Noob
Lotus said:
That would be awesome.

I always wished NRS games had command taunts, never thought about using Stance Switch for it. Every character having a unique taunt would be sick.
Click to expand...
I don't know man. Or women. Pardon my ignorance, I don't mean to assume your gender. Not that it matters. You are welcome to be anything you are. Just be happy with who you are and the world will be happy with you.

But anyway. A taunt button wouldn't be as great as people think. Have you played games with taunt buttons. They suck. All of them. Not the games necessarily. But in game taunts. I had a post a few posts back that went over it. But it was offensive and a mod called me out on it. And I apologize to everybody who was offended by the tea bagging comment. Or maybe I don't. I don't know.

Point was, a taunt button is meaningless, just something to fill an empty button. A tea bag carries something with it. It has weight and meaning. And if you are trolling or trying to set somebody off it is the way you do it. Plus its funny and hype.

My messages wouldn't have been deleted if I had just said "taunt button". Think about it. Taunt.... Button.
 
24K

24K

Noob
It's meaningless and they should be kept out of games. I all ready gave two perfect examples of what the button could be used for. Discussion is now just looping in circles.
 
ELC

ELC

Scrublord McGee
Um ... because the Crouch-Spam is a generic rip-off of the FPS gaming subculture that quite honestly doesn't make sense unless the opponent is already downed (by which point you won)?

Not saying I'm for a taunt button unless it had some additional functionality to it outside of delayed wakeups. In fact, imagine this: Johnny Cage is about to finish some other MK character off. But instead of doing a lot of random shuffling about, he merely taunts the opponent before performing a fatality. This application need not apply just to MK's fatalities; in fact, it could apply to any generic movement (which may include jumps and crouches, but not include dashes and back dashes) so as to mask the buffering of specials.
 
24K

24K

Noob
The tea bag is not a generic rip off of anything. It has been around long since before FPS players used it. And it is found in any competitive multiplayer game that has a crouch button.

I say holding the stance switch while tea bagging should initiate a tea bag brutality.
 
L

Lycanthos

Noob
Honestly, the stance-switch button/mechanic is fine. I love that NRS wants to show off their character models by allowing you to show the front or back of your character. Honestly, they are the only ones that have a 3D view for 2D characters. Even SFV lacks this feature, even though the character models are built using polygons, they are still presented one-dimmensionally. I vote nothing changes. Peace!
 
Q

Quan Chihuahua

Noob
Lycanthos said:
Honestly, the stance-switch button/mechanic is fine. I love that NRS wants to show off their character models by allowing you to show the front or back of your character. Honestly, they are the only ones that have a 3D view for 2D characters. Even SFV lacks this feature, even though the character models are built using polygons, they are still presented one-dimmensionally. I vote nothing changes. Peace!
Click to expand...
Stance switch would have the same animation with my idea, it would just add a high skill, hype adding functionality to it. For example, imagine you're playing against Supergirl and she's about to chip you out with d1 breath. You block the d1 and stance switch through all 4 hits of the breath perfectly and full combo punish her to win the match. That would be SF3 Daigo vs J Wong levels of hype if you won a tournament with it. Does stance switch NEED a new functionality to it? No. Could it make the game more fun and challenging? Yes, so why not give it one?
 
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