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Make Injustice 2 a 3/5 game at Combo breaker 2017!

Should Injustice 2 be 3/5?


  • Total voters
    67

ATP2014

The best mediocre Batman
Howdy everyone! As I'm sure you are all aware, Injustice 2 was recently given an official release date on May 16, 2017. On top of that, one of the biggest tournaments, Combobreaker 2017 is going to be the first major tournament featuring our staple game.

This is all awesome! BUT, after looking at the rules page for the tournament, I found this:

https://combobreaker.org/injustice/

Injustice 2 will be 2/3 for the WHOLE tournament, except for Winners, Losers and Grand Finals.

The past has shown us that NRS games are fast enough that a 3/5 tournament standard is practical, and allows for better and more exciting sets. We need to act on this now, as a community, so that the TO's can make the necessary changes. If we can make this change now, we can even influence the EVO organizers to give us 3/5 as well.

Spread the word!

@Pig Of The Hut @SonicFox5000 @YOMI DJT @YOMI FOREVER KING @YOMI MITYEAP @HoneyBee @Tweedy @UltraDavid @Kitana Prime @michaelangelo @Vandy @Pnut @PND_Ketchup @PND_Mustard @Killer Xinok @GGA Jeremiah @hayatei @Tom Brady @REO

Edit: It appears that Combobreaker has updated their rule page and Injustice 2 is now 3/5 the whole way! Thank you all for helping to speak out, we have been heard!
 
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Alright RyRy

Florida Kombat
It only seems logical to me, why make a new game that everyone is going to watch 2/3 and seem like you're just getting it over with.

It needs to be 3/5 the entire way, or at the very least like Pig said, everything after pools is 3/5.
 

Dizzy

False Information Police Officer
Premium Supporter
NetherRealm Studios
I sent a message over to Hadou politely asking. We should respect and support whatever decision he and CB makes but I whole heartedly agree 3/5 is a must. Maybe not for pool play but top64 top32 and on?
This is a reasonable change, IMO. INJ2 could easily have 500+ since it will be the first big tournament and NRS games historically have very good turnouts at CB. I don't know if @thehadou could make it 3/5 all the way through without having solid data for expected number of entrants.

3/5 all the way through is a lot easier to do for a game with 100 entrants, compared to 500 which is understandable.
 

NB Semi Evil Ryu

Former Sub-Zero of the Midwest (2011 - 2015)
2/3 for Pool Play, but 3/5 for Top 8 or maybe even Top 16.

And then, after a few majors with Injustice 2 have come and gone: re-evaluate.
 

Pig Of The Hut

Day 0 Phenomenal Dr. Fate and Darkseid player
This is a reasonable change, IMO. INJ2 could easily have 500+ since it will be the first big tournament and NRS games historically have very good turnouts at CB. I don't know if @thehadou could make it 3/5 all the way through without having solid data for expected number of entrants.

3/5 all the way through is a lot easier to do for a game with 100 entrants, compared to 500 which is understandable.
I'm not sure if you're back there helping or not (and not asking u to confirm you are or aren't) but can you ask those who are to discuss their suggestions to Hadou?
 

STRYKIE

Are ya' ready for MK11 kids?!
Sorry but I'm playing devils advocate on this one.

There needs to be mechanical evidence within the way the game plays that would warrant TOs accepting 3/5 sets would be time and cost effective for their events.

For MKX this made sense based on people feeling how fast/aggressive the game is.

Unlike MK which effectively entertains a new meta with every new game, Injustice 2 is looking like its building largely upon it's predecessor, and let's not kids ourselves, any feelings toward Injustice 1 being fast and/or aggressive were pretty sporadic. In fact it was shunned pretty hard for how overly defensive the game was perceived to be at its first Evo.

Personally I'm not opposed to 3/5 and do prefer it either way, but we do need the game to check some boxes and I don't think 2 weeks or so is enough time to come to a decision on that. Otherwise, requests for 3/5 in future NRS games may simply be taken as 'quality of life' incentive and may not be taken seriously by TOs for future NRS games that would legitimately benefit from it relative to their actual gameplay.
 

Pig Of The Hut

Day 0 Phenomenal Dr. Fate and Darkseid player
Sorry but I'm playing devils advocate on this one.

There needs to be mechanical evidence within the way the game plays that would warrant TOs accepting 3/5 sets would be time and cost effective for their events.

For MKX this made sense based on people feeling how fast/aggressive the game is.

Unlike MK which effectively entertains a new meta with every new game, Injustice 2 is looking like its building largely upon it's predecessor, and let's not kids ourselves, any feelings toward Injustice 1 being fast and/or aggressive were pretty sporadic. In fact it was shunned pretty hard for how overly defensive the game was perceived to be at its first Evo.

Personally I'm not opposed to 3/5 and do prefer it either way, but we do need the game to check some boxes and I don't think 2 weeks or so is enough time to come to a decision on that. Otherwise, requests for 3/5 in future NRS games may simply be taken as 'quality of life' incentive and may not be taken seriously by TOs for future NRS games that would legitimately benefit from it relative to their actual gameplay.
There is evidence

Legacy Inj1 + mb roll
 

Compbros

Man of Tomorrow
Unlike MK which effectively entertains a new meta with every new game, Injustice 2 is looking like its building largely upon it's predecessor, and let's not kids ourselves, any feelings toward Injustice 1 being fast and/or aggressive were pretty sporadic. In fact it was shunned pretty hard for how overly defensive the game was perceived to be at its first Evo.

I think you're mis-remembering a few things.

The game has a single life-bar through an entire match, by it's nature it has a better chance of ending quicker than MKX, SFV, Tekken, or any other traditional 2/3 round fighter. People shunned IGAU for it's ridiculous zoning coupled with ridiculous rushdown/damage thanks to Superman and Black Adam. It wasn't that the game looked too defense based, it was that the game looked boring because it was all "eye laser, eye laser, F23 for 40~ percent, Adam win button, etc". It felt extremely braindead.
 

Dizzy

False Information Police Officer
Premium Supporter
NetherRealm Studios
I'm not sure if you're back there helping or not (and not asking u to confirm you are or aren't) but can you ask those who are to discuss their suggestions to Hadou?
Yeah, I am an Associate Designer for NRS now, so I am 100% corporate like @16 Bit and not going anywhere

I know the community wants 3/5, I just wanted to mention the fact there could be limitations on the TO side as to why 3/5 might not happen until later in the tournament.
 

STRYKIE

Are ya' ready for MK11 kids?!
There is evidence

Legacy Inj1 + mb roll
That's exactly what I'm saying though, Injustice 1 is a long way away from playing like MKX, based on all the arguments that were given to make MKX 3/5 standard after it started out as 2/3.

I think you're mis-remembering a few things.

The game has a single life-bar through an entire match, by it's nature it has a better chance of ending quicker than MKX, SFV, Tekken, or any other traditional 2/3 round fighter. People shunned IGAU for it's ridiculous zoning coupled with ridiculous rushdown/damage thanks to Superman and Black Adam. It wasn't that the game looked too defense based, it was that the game looked boring because it was all "eye laser, eye laser, F23 for 40~ percent, Adam win button, etc". It felt extremely braindead.
Tekken's tournament standard is 3/5 rounds per game, just for the record.


Also zoning typically doesn't deplete your life as quickly as getting clipped by an overhead for a 30% something BNB. Despite all that, timeouts, or close to them were much more frequent in Injustice 1. They never happened in MKX pre XL (partially due to the inexplicably slow timer on the clock pre-patch, in fairness) but even now the only occurrences I can think of are life lead oriented matchups involving Grandmaster Sub, Blood God Kotal etc.

Again, some of the early backlash towards Injustice 1's early meta may never be allowed to live from the get go in Injustice 2, and I do prefer 3/5 personally, but if we're being totally realistic, the reasons given to campaign for 3/5 in MK9, Injustice 1 and MKX respectively all totally contradict each other. TOs WILL catch on to this and it might come back to bite us if we don't get it right for Injustice 2. Just sayin'.
 
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Compbros

Man of Tomorrow
Tekken's tournament standard is 3/5 rounds per game, just for the record.


Also zoning typically doesn't deplete your life as quickly as getting clipped by an overhead for a 30% something BNB. Despite all that, timeouts, or close to them were much more frequent in Injustice 1. They never happened in MKX pre XL (partially due to the inexplicably slow timer on the clock pre-patch, in fairness) but even now the only occurrences I can think of are life lead oriented matchups involving Grandmaster Sub, Blood God Kotal etc.

Again, some of the early backlash towards Injustice 1's early meta may never be allowed to live from the get go in Injustice 2, and I do prefer 3/5 personally, but if we're being totally realistic, the reasons given to campaign for 3/5 in MK9, Injustice 1 and MKX respectively all totally contradict each other. TOs WILL catch on to this and it might come back to bite us.

Yes and it has been seen to over run quite a few time during top 8 because they have a higher round/set base than most other games while still having traditional life bars but TO's still do it and I doubt Tekken 7 will be no different.

No, it doesn't, but when it's doing, say, 8 percent on hit and 2 percent on chip it adds up quickly. Your opponent has to find a way in and then they're instantly hit with the best footsie tool in the game at the time for 40 percent back to full screen zoning. You will get several breakers throughout MK to reset neutral and stop your opponents combo, for Injustice you had to just eat it for 90 percent of the match. Timeouts became more frequent later in the game with people like Zod but most of the time you would not see a time out. Yes, you can say it's more frequent but then Marvel vs. Capcom 3 had more time outs than either game and it is a ridiculously fast paced game.

Even so we still see that it won't be as defensive thanks to things like MB roll coupled with the still prevalent "one lifebar, no rounds" system.
 

ATP2014

The best mediocre Batman
I would also argue that the reasoning for any community wanting 3/5 for their game is the same:

- More games to determine who is a better player
- More high level play to spectate

The real question is if it can be practically accomplished at these major tournaments. Injustice 1 and MKX both proved it was possible. Given the legacy feel of Injustice 2, it's fair to say that it can be done again.
 

Pig Of The Hut

Day 0 Phenomenal Dr. Fate and Darkseid player
Yeah, I am an Associate Designer for NRS now, so I am 100% corporate like @16 Bit and not going anywhere

I know the community wants 3/5, I just wanted to mention the fact there could be limitations on the TO side as to why 3/5 might not happen until later in the tournament.
Yep and I fully agree on maybe a top32 3/5

No one wants to see 2 jobber nockeys duking it out for 5 games
 

thehadou

Bumbling towards greatness.
Hey friends,

Just so everyone knows the rule set on CB's site is a Default rule set used for any new game. Notice that there aren't any specific rules for Gear yet (something we know is coming with Injustice 2), etc.

The CB team is open to 3/5, particularly if its a community want, but I'll admit we're not going to do so based on expectation-only-based demand. We want the game to need to be 3/5. Personally, I believe it will be (particularly given Injustice 1) but I also believe early Injustice and end-of-meta Injustice both could've and would've been fine as 2/3.

We're talking to NRS now to establish their views, talking to community leaders, drawing on my own history with NRS games, and greatly looking forward to playing Injustice 2 to identifying what is wise here.

The other important thing to think about is that CB is basically a release week tournament. Its going to be an event largely dependent on basic skills and early tech. Thats something that shorter sets might find benefit in. With new players and first time players in the mix throwing them into a 3/5 set where they lose 3 games to a single piece of tech or single button footsies might damage our outreach as a community. So there are multiple things to consider.
 
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thehadou

Bumbling towards greatness.
I would also argue that the reasoning for any community wanting 3/5 for their game is the same:

- More games to determine who is a better player
- More high level play to spectate
More games determine who is the better longer set player. Its a different skill set than the shorter set as the shorter set relies on faster adaptation and tech knowledge. There are cool aspects of both (thus why there are still 1 and done tourneys in Japan or why team tournaments are generally single game). You can be a great short set player and be a terrible long set player (and vise versa).
 
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I'd have to agree with @Pig Of The Hut To be honest these games share a few elements, mix ups, high damage etc. MK9 iirc ended up being 3/5, Injustice ended up being 3/5 as did MKX. Honestly we should skip the "wait and see", and just make the standard 3/5.

That being said given its the first Major in the heart of NRS country, there is bound to be a large turnout. So it's a fair compromise to have 2/3 for pool play then maybe 3/5 for either Top 64 or Top 32 and above.
 

ATP2014

The best mediocre Batman
More games determine who is the better longer set player. Its a different skill set than the shorter set as the shorter set relies on faster adaptation and tech knowledge. There are cool aspects of both (thus why there are still 1 and done tourneys in Japan or why team tournaments are generally single game). You can be a great short set players and be a terrible long set player (and vise versa).
I see what you mean. Ultimately, this is something I wanted to bring up for discussion as soon as possible, so that all parties have enough time to find the best solution.

Regardless of your final decision, we all appreciate your quick response and your willingness to hear us out!
 

SaltShaker

In Zoning We Trust
What Foxy just said. The nature of the life bars makes 2/3 less appealing. However new game and turnout might make something like "2/3 pools but 3/5 Top 64" or something better. 3/5 all tourney might be ideal but not feasible.

I agree with the majority here as well. 2/3 Top 8 just seems off with this game. Keep in mind the decision will likely set precedent for the longterm foreseeable future for the game. At least the Top 32 should be 3/5 imo.
 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
Well, Injustice 2 is a new game, but it isn't really. We've already done 3/5 for Injustice and it was fine; so we may as well just go ahead and establish it now.
 

SaltShaker

In Zoning We Trust
Well, Injustice 2 is a new game, but it isn't really. We've already done 3/5 for Injustice and it was fine; so we may as well just go ahead and establish it now.
That's true and Inj1 worked better with 3/5, so it's very likely that Inj2 will be even better with 3/5 due to the changes.

My only concern is like Pig said. Do we really want to see two jobbers battling it out on Top 350 wasting time? That's the only meh part.
 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
That's true and Inj1 worked better with 3/5, so it's very likely that Inj2 will be even better with 3/5 due to the changes.

My only concern is like Pig said. Do we really want to see two jobbers battling it out on Top 350 wasting time? That's the only meh part.
Of course, you could counterbalance that by saying "do we really want to miss out on some of those insane 5-game sets and 0-2 comebacks that will probably be remembered for years to come?"

While it's cute to call people "jobbers" and whatnot, everybody has to learn somehow. Remember how far Glass/IronSsword came in Injustice 1? So I think that keeping things exciting is mostly up to the selection of which matches make the stream.

But I don't see this being any different from MKX (or INJ1) and I think that having a couple more rounds of some less-exciting matches is indeed a very small price to pay.

Everyone will quickly forget the boring matches, but nobody will forget those classics that 3/5 makes possible.
 

SaltShaker

In Zoning We Trust
Of course, you could counterbalance that by saying "do we really want to miss out on some of those insane 5-game sets and 0-2 comebacks that will probably be remembered for years to come?"

While it's cute to call people "jobbers" and whatnot, everybody has to learn somehow. Remember how far Glass/IronSsword came in Injustice 1? So I think that keeping things exciting is mostly up to the selection of which matches make the stream.

But I don't see this being any different from MKX (or INJ1) and I think that having a couple more rounds of some less-exciting matches is indeed a very small price to pay.

Everyone will quickly forget the boring matches, but nobody will forget those classics that 3/5 makes possible.
Jobbers are still jobbers though, regardless of their later progression out of it lol.

That's a good point though. I think we agree that worst case scenario is probably 2/3 all the way. If anything, there are probably more comeback type matches early on.