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Poll Should MK11 Build on MKX?

Should MK11 retain MKX character designs, mechanics, stages, etc. and build from them?

  • Yes

    Votes: 93 44.9%

  • No

    Votes: 114 55.1%
  • Total voters
    207
Eddy Wang

Eddy Wang

Skarlet scientist
KeyserSoze said:
Yeah, I just don't see it. So many characters in that game were over-matched. At least the vast majority of MKX characters (I would argue almost all of them) have a viable variation. And writing "although there was Kabal, Cyrax, and Kenshi . . . " is like writing "although I have terminal brain cancer . . . "
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Its not the same thing, in MK9 these character were extremely powerful because some of their tools were poorly designed which was the reason of major complaint of the game, it wasn't system questionable design choices in general gameplay issues.

in MKX is different, people are either complaining because defense is too weak, or because some characters just have tools they don't really need, can't deny the balance is better, but the game would be even better than MK9 if those general tools just did their job when used rather than use and hope for the best.

In MK9 you weren't guessing all the time as if you're a goalkeeper in a penalty situation.
 
Skylight1

Skylight1

Noob
KeyserSoze said:
I have no problem with anyone feeling that MK9 is more fun than MKX, or even just a better game. That is an opinion and we all have them. But, I'm just tired of reading revisionist history about how flawless MK9's game mechanics are. I'm just not sure how anyone could objectively state that MK9 is a better-balanced or more competitively viable game than MKX, regardless of how anyone might actually feel about which game is more fun/entertaining.
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If I take my vintage-glasses off, I'd still see MK9 as a better balanced game (outside of the LOLKabals and LOLCyraxs.) This game is still fair in comparison to I don't know... Marvel vs Capcom 2 where if you didn't pick Cable/Storm/Sentinel or Cable/Storm/Psylocke or god forbid as the 3rd character, you were toast.
Mortal Kombat hasn't reached that level of fuckery yet and I don't think they ever will..... unless we continue to have Paolo as the main guy doing the patches.
 
Skylight1

Skylight1

Noob
KeyserSoze said:
I would argue that Relentless and Unstoppable Jason definitely depend on their grabs, but I guess it's really semantics in that in comes down to how you are using the word "depends."
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Jason doesn't depend on his grabs though, ticks maybe. In relentless you're not trying to grab unless you want a red screen or trying to salvage up from lost time. Unstoppable is all about the safe activation of your power ups, if I'm not mistaken. Please correct me if I'm wrong in any of this.
 
fr stack

fr stack

Noob's saibot or noob saibot's?
Matix218 said:
I realize that, but the invincibility frames are why backdash costs stamina while forward dash does not. Screen positioning has nothing to do with the resource cost
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i hear ya man.. wot did you think of injustices backdashing system, did you think it was overly defensive or good ? i thought it was great , i mean reading a backdash is like reading any other option from your opponent imo
 
Matix218

Matix218

Get over here!
fr stack said:
i hear ya man.. wot did you think of injustices backdashing system, did you think it was overly defensive or good ? i thought it was great , i mean reading a backdash is like reading any other option from your opponent imo
Click to expand...
I don't think that backdashing should cost stamina personally. Since many characters can blow up a backdash if they read it anyway I don't think it would be defensively "over powered" to have backdash not have a resource cost. Especially since the offense in mkx is so insanely strong.
 
KeyserSoze

KeyserSoze

Fabled Villain
Skylight1 said:
Jason doesn't depend on his grabs though, ticks maybe. In relentless you're not trying to grab unless you want a red screen or trying to salvage up from lost time. Unstoppable is all about the safe activation of your power ups, if I'm not mistaken. Please correct me if I'm wrong in any of this.
Click to expand...


You are correct that Unstoppable's top priority is to get his buffs on the screen safely, but his command grabs are definitely an important part of his neutral and his tick throws are huge. One of the keys to Unstoppable is using his command grabs effectively with damage buff active. I tend to be a command grab heavy Jason, though.
 
CrimsonShadow

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
Eddy Wang said:
Its not the same thing, in MK9 these character were extremely powerful because some of their tools were poorly designed which was the reason of major complaint of the game, it wasn't system questionable design choices in general gameplay issues.
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People say this with rose-colored glasses, but it wasn't true. There were come core issues with MK9 that went across nearly the entire game.

-Extremely inconsistent design on pokes, people being punished for pokes that they needed to escape offense
-Spikes of random advantage on block creating inescapable offense
-Randomly losing a bar when EX/armored moves didn't probably come out
-Overzealous chip damage
-Input Bug
-P1 Advantage
-Poor networking code
-etc.

While the game did do some things correctly, I think it's disingenuous to say that there weren't problems that were universal to the game's design and the engine's implementation. It was still lots of fun to play -- but as a 'first love' a lot of people have problems admitting that the game wasn't as rock solid as it's said to be.

Each game so far has had its own universal strengths and weaknesses, and MK9 is no different. You can also bet that if MKX had been the first game to galvanize this community, people would look at it differently than they do now.
 
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Eddy Wang

Eddy Wang

Skarlet scientist
CrimsonShadow said:
People say this with rose-colored glasses, but it wasn't true. There were come core issues with MKX that went across nearly the entire game.

-Extremely inconsistent design on pokes, people being punished for pokes that they needed to escape offense
-Spikes of random advantage on block creating inescapable offense
-Randomly losing a bar when EX/armored moves didn't probably come out
-Overzealous chip damage
-Input Bug
-P1 Advantage
-Poor networking code
-etc.

While the game did do some things correctly, I think it's disingenuous to say that there weren't problems that were universal to the game's design and the engine's implementation. It was still lots of fun to play -- but as a 'first love' a lot of people have problems admitting that the game wasn't as rock solid as it's said to be.

Each game so far has had its own universal strengths and weaknesses, and MK9 is no different. You can also bet that if MKX had been the first game to galvanize this community, people would look at it differently than they do now.
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The poke thing is relative, MKX has way more ways to escape offence yet it doesn't work, the poke was a tool just to reverse pressure, and if many people got punished for having their pokes blocked its either because they mashed, aside from Kabal, Skarlet and Johnny cage no one had a mid fast to punish D1 when blocked. There is nothing against MKX d1 being -6, -7 what ever, the gripe is that it low profiles, which in consequence allows people to mash when they poke was already blocked, there isn't really a true turn, the moment you block one you're already guessin.

-I would take the Meter drain glitch over fake advantage of MKX where you can be armored out when you're plus lol
-Inescapable offense wasn't the fact of random advantage, it was the amount of plus frames on canceled attacks in combination with the stance lock system that kept people locked in the ground indeed MK9 had a lot of super plus frames, thank god there wasn't unreactable lows and overhead starters back then, neither fullscreen advancing strings that auto anti-airs when trying to NJP
-Input Bug only affected jumping (but was hella annoying)
-Chip damage doing universal 2% and 1% was awesome, everyone could do it, and only a handfull of characters could actually apply loopable blockstrings with no "random overheads" in the middle, it worked for that game, clearly it doesn't work for MKX, two different things.
- You forgot the negative edge.


I know a lot of people hated MK9, and i know the comunity is divided between Mk9, MKX and IGAU, there are things i like in each game, based on what NRS did with MK9 and what they did with IGAU, i honestly expected a bit more from MKX, i'm talking about handling balance, and defining ground rules, i'm talking about seeing the #Paulosvision discussed before implemented, watching a tool from other than d3v perspective.
 
ILuvFightGames

ILuvFightGames

Noob
Ze Dingo said:
My opinion - build from MK X, but with the following changes:

1. Only 2 variations.

2. Everyone gets a viable backdash with similar invincibility frames (if any).

3. Backdashes don't cost stamina.

4. No fucking 3/4th or full screen normals.

5. If it's attached to the character's body, it has a hurtbox.

6. Remove cancels completely. No cancels, at all. You commit, delay or you don't. None of this cancel hogwash.

7. No whiff cancelling. No whiffing an air normal then cancelling into a divekick or teleport.

8. Universal gravity scaling.

9. Less 50-50s. No strings that go OH->Low and shit. Tone down the mix-ups. Just less guessing will be nice.

10. Give anti air normals more priority than air normals. No air normal should bit on the way up.

11. Tone down the freaking + frames. Nothing should be more than + 6 on block.

12. Remove the hideous blockstun animations. If you're -17, I should be able fo punish you without waiting for some silly staggering animation.

13. Remove all guests. Seriously, fuck guests.

14. Fix all the hitbox issues.

15. Make zoning more viable. Reasonable zoning, not fucking MK9 Kenshi or Zod.

16. Consistency across moves. For example, if a move is armoured and launches, it shouldn't be safe. You only get 2. Choose 2 between armour, safety and launch. There's no reason for any move to have all 3.

17. None of this hard to block nonsense. Seriously, it's pure cheese and nothing else.

18. More emphasis on movement. Actual movement, not run in and jump.

19. Proper grapplers. As it stands, I don't even need to grapple with the grapplers right now. I can get my damage off their strings without even having to use the command throws.

20. Patching with less frequency. If you're going to make a balance patch, can we atleast have 3-6 months gap between them? Let things ride out a bit before buffing or nerfing.

That's all, I think. As much as I like MK X, I'm not blind to it's problems.

Edited to add a few points that I forgot to mention and made it easier to read. Sorry about the brick wall of text earlier.
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I completely agree with number 9, just like I imagine anyone who doesn't like guessing to take priority over skill, by just doing number 9, 80% of MKX issues resolved.
 
KeyserSoze

KeyserSoze

Fabled Villain
Eddy Wang said:
Its not the same thing, in MK9 these character were extremely powerful because some of their tools were poorly designed which was the reason of major complaint of the game, it wasn't system questionable design choices in general gameplay issues.

in MKX is different, people are either complaining because defense is too weak, or because some characters just have tools they don't really need, can't deny the balance is better, but the game would be even better than MK9 if those general tools just did their job when used rather than use and hope for the best.

In MK9 you weren't guessing all the time as if you're a goalkeeper in a penalty situation.
Click to expand...
But, in terms of overall balance, all that matters is the overall result. The bottom line is that this game is considerably more balanced than MK9 is.
 
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KeyserSoze

KeyserSoze

Fabled Villain
CrimsonShadow said:
While the game did do some things correctly, I think it's disingenuous to say that there weren't problems that were universal to the game's design and the engine's implementation. It was still lots of fun to play -- but as a 'first love' a lot of people have problems admitting that the game wasn't as rock solid as it's said to be.

Each game so far has had its own universal strengths and weaknesses, and MK9 is no different. You can also bet that if MKX had been the first game to galvanize this community, people would look at it differently than they do now.
Click to expand...

this
 
Trauma_and_Pain

Trauma_and_Pain

Filthy Casual
Matador Fiend said:
jumping attacks being so strong is my main gripe in mkx
Click to expand...
Ze Dingo said:
No fucking 3/4th or full screen normals...
More emphasis on movement. Actual movement, not run in and jump.
Proper grapplers.
Make zoning more viable. Reasonable zoning, not fucking MK9 Kenshi or Zod.
Tone down the freaking + frames. Nothing should be more than + 6 on block.
Click to expand...
I strongly agree with these points.

Shoryuken strength AA and Back to block instead of block button would also be great.

If you jump at me in neutral, it should be a risk and I should be able to AA you meterless every time if I can react. Part of the problem is Startup is slow in MKX. Give AA abilities 3-4 frame Startup or something so we can actually AA on reaction. Do that and give AA top priority always over jump-ins and we're set.

Jumping should still be strong enough for crossups and to punish projectile zoning.
 
IBreakemoffI

IBreakemoffI

Shut Down!
KHTC Takgillo said:
It actually depends on who u use with Takeda for example you can deal with MU by switching variations and people do
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Ok but what if I don't want to counterpick? Say I prefer playing his variation but yet I am forced to switch bc the MU is to hard? I don't like variations they make no sense to me. Then have to come up with something and they just throw something in. I believe it's to much for them and for what? Two three different moves? Scrap variations plz ;)
 
Trauma_and_Pain

Trauma_and_Pain

Filthy Casual
IBreakemoffI said:
Ok but what if I don't want to counterpick? Say I prefer playing his variation but yet I am forced to switch bc the MU is to hard? I don't like variations they make no sense to me. Then have to come up with something and they just throw something in. I believe it's to much for them and for what? Two three different moves? Scrap variations plz ;)
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Removing variations won't remove counterpicking though. It will make it worse, because if you have a bad matchup with your main and need to counterpick, you need to learn a completely new character. Variations allow you to simply learn those 2-3 extra moves and have a much easier time. That's an argument in support of variations, when they're done right.
 
KHTC Takgillo

KHTC Takgillo

Noob
IBreakemoffI said:
Ok but what if I don't want to counterpick? Say I prefer playing his variation but yet I am forced to switch bc the MU is to hard? I don't like variations they make no sense to me. Then have to come up with something and they just throw something in. I believe it's to much for them and for what? Two three different moves? Scrap variations plz ;)
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But wouldn't you switch anyway but instead of switching variations and keeping the familiarity ur character gives you you'll have to go to someone completely different with another set play
 
Nu-Skoool

Nu-Skoool

Feel the nerf of despair
Run system was a great addition. I think that variations were a good game mechanic,'however I think NRS should go back having one character and one variation. I say this because A ( it can lead to some stale/underutilized variations and B) it can really complicate game balancing. In that regard I say NRS has done a good job with MU balance.

However the unreactable 50/50 skewed reward approach has got to go. Players want an honest game with more neutral game emphasis, instead of "hey I'm in your face now guess high or low".
 
CircleOf14

CircleOf14

Noob
1. Bring back Dash Block (forward, forward, block in Mk9). I loved being able to carefully get closer to my opponent and have time to think/react to what's going on as I got closer. I guess you could still have run to mix things up, but just assign it to an entirely different button. I couldn't believe when I first played MkX that f,f,block literally did the OPPOSITE of what it used to do. It felt like a slap in the face.

2. Bring back invincible wake ups. It's a simple yet effective way to get your opponent off your back and I don't consider it "cheap/weak" because an opponent can easily bait/anticipate a player that relies too heavily on this.

3. Bring back the longer input windows from Mk9. For example:
*In Mk9 if you blocked Mileenas roll or Raiden's superman, you had almost 2 full seconds to wait for them to land and you can compose yourself and get ready to inflict your punish. And when I jumped over an opponent, I could literally be just a few pixels off the ground, push the kick button and the crossover kick would come out.

*In MkX however, you BARELY have a second to react to blocked special moves. And it seems that when you jump, unless you are directly over your opponents head when you press a punch/kick button, your punch/kick will never come out!

4. Bring back the easy Back,Forward input from Mk9. I remember when MkX first came out there were at least 2 giant threads about how difficult Back,Forward moves were to execute. Most people were like "just practice" or whatever, but it's like why does something so simple, something that has absolutely nothing to do with the "vision" of the game, something that worked perfectly fine in Mk9 get modified to be unnecessarily more strict in MkX?

Mk9 was one of the funnest experiences I've ever had in my life. But when MkX came along, I think these 4 simple points were the biggest reason that I never got into it. And I tried for sooooo long. It's like Netherealms decided to make the game much less beginner friendly. Why? The beginner friendly aspects of Mk9 I think are part of what gave it it's charm. That's why I think an old dude like me and basically kids (like that kid Josh99 I think was his name) were able to get really good and hold our own against some really good players. Yet the game was still deep enough so that gods like Reo, PerfectLegend, CdJr etc. could reach an untouchable level. Oh I forgot one point...

5. Bring back Mercies from Mk Trilogy for original Playstation! Oh my god that was my favorite shit! haha.
 
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H

HRshuvNStuff

Noob
I agree with 1 and 3. Also, get rid of the run and the variation system. Take the best moves from each character somehow without breaking them. Improve anti airs and make 50/50s unsafe. Leave everything else the same and you got a damn good fighting game.
 
aj1701

aj1701

Noob
EdenianWarrior said:
Don't want Sonya, Johnny, Kenshi, Kano, Jax or Kitana/Liu/Kano playable. Make the former group not in game at ALL or given story cameos. The latter group should be boss/sub boss/story antagonist. As much as I love Mileena, if they don't revive her with a clone or something let her stay dead... Quan can go for a game too. Please a better story as well. Fire everyone and get the guy who wrote the comic. Rebel Tanya+Mileena+Rain again (Outworld civil war pt2?) Good guy Sindel, Fujin vs Dark Raiden, Hotaru+Seidan army. Just some thoughts. Really want to see Onaga or a good original boss.

Variations are a yes. They just need to fine tune and for Pete sake please give characters more variation specific strings. Just overall make it so that at LEAST 90% of the roster has tournament viable all 3 variations (a guy can dream right?) I really don't wanna see the same characters over and over. Some characters should get improved versions of existing variations, complete overhauls, or a mix of both.

Outworld marketplace, Kuatan Jungle, and The pit are all phenomenal stages. Most others are pretty bad. The temple and Sky Temple are great as well. Maybe new versions of those, but the rest needs to be new GOOD stages and a lot at that too.

Challenge tower should return, along with many fun other single player content. Single fight is a must. Improve the A.I even more, I love fighting against it.

Sky is the limit with NRS when it comes to finishers, they wont disappoint.

I know I probably missed a lot, but this is good (for now).
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Yikes; that's almost exactly the opposite of what I'd like to see, except for the challenge tower / single player ideas.
 
AcMilan91

AcMilan91

Noob
Just remove variations and kids(jacquie, cassie) switch them with noob, rain, shang etc.. and yeah mk9 fundamentala over mkx with mkx graphics
 
neveradestroyer

neveradestroyer

Noob
Make all the strings and specials that are combo overhead -20 on block,and knockdown or push overheads -15 on block. Sub Zero's too. And make -15 all jumps and special air moves on block. (Njp, njk, jip and jik). There we go.Instant balance.
 
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