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Match-up Discussion - Grandmaster Sub-Zero MU Notes

Tanno

Tanno

The Fantasy is the Reality of the Mind
Here's my list, so far based of my experience. I didn't include the other characters, because I don't have much experience.

Wins:
Jax: All variations
Cyber Sub-Zero
Alien: Tarkatan and Konjurer (Tarkatan is my second main, so I know it very well)
Kotal Kahn: All variations
Smoke
Johnny Cage: A-List and Fisticuffs

Even:
Goro: All variations
Erron Black: All variations
Kenshi: Kenjutsu (In Japanese means "The Technique of the Sword")
Sub-Zero: All variations
Jacqui Briggs: All variations
Erron Black: All variations
Cassie Cage: All variations
Jason Voorhes: All variations
Leatherface: All variations
Liu Kang: All variations
Kitana: All variations
Scorpion: Inferno
Shinnok: Boneshaper and Necromancer
Takeda: Ronin
Raiden: Thunder God and Master of Storms
Tanya: Dragon Naginata and Kobu Jutsu
Sektor
Cyrax
Kung Jin: All variations
Tremor: Crystalline
Johnny Cage: Stunt Double
Predator: Warrior and Hunter

Losing:
Ermac: All variations
Mileena: All variations
Shinnok: Impostor
Kenshi: Possessed and Balanced
Tremor: Aftershock/Metallic
Takeda: Lasher and SR
Kenshi: Balanced and Possessed
Quan Chi: All variations
Predator: HQT
Scorpion: Hellfire/Ninjutsu
Raiden: Displacer
Alien: Acidic
Tanya: Pyromancer
Kung Lao: All variations (as of this patch KL is way faster than he was pre-patch)

Blewdew said:
How do you even lose against lackey as grandmaster? Sure ruthless and vicious obviously win this matchup but Lackey has almost no chance
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That's because I didn't have much experience against the duo. And I didn't see which variation was. If there was an EU F/T main, I would gladly learn this duo's MU.

Sure, will add you in. :)

Edit: added you.
 
Braindead

Braindead

I want Kronika to step on my face
Revenant Zero said:
@Dankster Morgan, do you really think all Mileena variations still beat Sub 3-7? I haven't played pro players like F0xy, saltface or Semijj but damn have played some people on TYM's mileena community since 10/4 patch.

Sub looks pretty good, Unb noticeably better than GM. I'd say it's a 6-4 if being fair, it's not as abysmal as Mystic tho
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Unbreakable is nowhere near as good as GM. GM is legit top 5 material now. Unbreakable is good but not that good.

And Sun God loses 3-7 at least lol.
 
Revenant Zero

Revenant Zero

Death Comes
Braindead said:
Unbreakable is nowhere near as good as GM. GM is legit top 5 material now. Unbreakable is good but not that good.

And Sun God loses 3-7 at least lol.
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Noticeably better in the Mileena MU IMO.
But like I said, I haven't played pros so I'm only saying in a casual stand point. GM's Klone always seems to miss Mileena when she telekicks unless Sub crouches under. Even then, I often find the GM struggling to get in with Piercing but not so much with Unb (aura chip reduction/ Ex null chip). I'm not downplaying GM, GM is still the same, he just has a better advantage now that they slanted all the variables that were against him.

I'm not going to downplay SG, he's a solid variation than the other two. BG looking pretty weak nowadays. I'd give SG some leverage because he can command grab and power up, which can be troublesome to scrub-zeros like myself. I'd say about 4-6, Sub favor or 5-5. But it's not that crazy slanted like Pre 10/4 Patch
 
Dankster Morgan

Dankster Morgan

It is better this way
Revenant Zero said:
@Dankster Morgan, do you really think all Mileena variations still beat Sub 3-7? I haven't played pro players like F0xy, saltface or Semijj but damn have played some people on TYM's mileena community since 10/4 patch.

Sub looks pretty good, Unb noticeably better than GM. I'd say it's a 6-4 if being fair, it's not as abysmal as Mystic tho
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I think the Mileena vs Grandmaster MU is almost the same. GM is way better than UB or do u mean vs her specifically?
 
Tanno

Tanno

The Fantasy is the Reality of the Mind
Dankster Morgan said:
I think the Mileena vs Grandmaster MU is almost the same. GM is way better than UB or do u mean vs her specifically?
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True. After the nerf Mileena got, GM's playstyle is a bit better. If Mileena is played well, she beats GM, though.

I can Ice Klone her telekick by reaction. The problem is her ground game.
 
Dankster Morgan

Dankster Morgan

It is better this way
Tanno said:
True. After the nerf Mileena got, GM's playstyle is a bit better. If Mileena is played well, she beats GM, though.

I can Ice Klone her telekick by reaction. The problem is her ground game.
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Still can't iceball, klone, or slide midscreen so it still blows
 
thlityoursloat

thlityoursloat

kick kick
How is Mileena still a 3-7 matchup anyways? EX roll not launching any more means you can just play nuttier and do more stupid unsafe shit and get away with it.
 
Dankster Morgan

Dankster Morgan

It is better this way
thlityoursloat said:
How is Mileena still a 3-7 matchup anyways? EX roll not launching any more means you can just play nuttier and do more stupid unsafe shit and get away with it.
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Sub-Zeros weren't losing to Mileenas from using unsafe klone cancels pre patch.

She just shuts him down hard still. The stamina changes make her zoning even harder for him to get around. He is one of the best antizoners but low sai shuts down slide, telekick blows up iceball, she can just sai a klone on reaction safely, only difference is if he gets clipped working his way in he loses his stamina and she is allowed to build even more meter while his stamina recharges, if he runs in and opens her up with a 50/50 or something he needs stamina to do any damage in a MU where it is hard to maintain. She still makes it near impossible for him to build meter midscreen, she builds meter a little better now, everything he does is punishable by her, she can play safe vs him. A lot of his strengths just get outright taken away such as the klone, mobility, and fucked up jump ins which mean nothing to her.

Not to say all of it is worse, the B12 post block game is a looooooooot more fair for him now that he got his 7 frame D1, B1 being a high helps(even though it was never even a "true" mid and D4 always low profiled her), and he can still blow her ass up in the corner of course.

So yeah up close is a little more manageable and from mid to long range is worse now, so that's my opinion on Grandmaster vs Piercing.
 
Revenant Zero

Revenant Zero

Death Comes
Dankster Morgan said:
Sub-Zeros weren't losing to Mileenas from using unsafe klone cancels pre patch.

She just shuts him down hard still. The stamina changes make her zoning even harder for him to get around. He is one of the best antizoners but low sai shuts down slide, telekick blows up iceball, she can just sai a klone on reaction safely, only difference is if he gets clipped working his way in he loses his stamina and she is allowed to build even more meter while his stamina recharges, if he runs in and opens her up with a 50/50 or something he needs stamina to do any damage in a MU where it is hard to maintain. She still makes it near impossible for him to build meter midscreen, she builds meter a little better now, everything he does is punishable by her, she can play safe vs him. A lot of his strengths just get outright taken away such as the klone, mobility, and fucked up jump ins which mean nothing to her.

Not to say all of it is worse, the B12 post block game is a looooooooot more fair for him now that he got his 7 frame D1, B1 being a high helps(even though it was never even a "true" mid and D4 always low profiled her), and he can still blow her ass up in the corner of course.

So yeah up close is a little more manageable and from mid to long range is worse now, so that's my opinion on Grandmaster vs Piercing.
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If I beat my first match in Kombat Cup 2 and move to the next match, I'll be playing Semijj.
Time to see this Pro Mileena Vs. GM Sub. (I've seen Semijj's Ravy; it's looking pretty scary)

Takeda Ronin is looking pretty unfavorable, now that I look at it lol. Any differing opinions?
 
Dankster Morgan

Dankster Morgan

It is better this way
Revenant Zero said:
If I beat my first match in Kombat Cup 2 and move to the next match, I'll be playing Semijj.
Time to see this Pro Mileena Vs. GM Sub. (I've seen Semijj's Ravy; it's looking pretty scary)

Takeda Ronin is looking pretty unfavorable, now that I look at it lol. Any differing opinions?
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Just try your best and have fun man, don't stress about it.

Brady always said Ronin was even pre patch and I think he was right. Hayatei I think is just a better player than any of the GM Subs he played tbh.
 
Revenant Zero

Revenant Zero

Death Comes
Dankster Morgan said:
Just try your best and have fun man, don't stress about it.

Brady always said Ronin was even pre patch and I think he was right. Hayatei I think is just a better player than any of the GM Subs he played tbh.
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It'll be a fun learning experience, that's for sure.

Fullscreen, Ronin is obnoxious. Doing everything to keep me away.
 
Tanno

Tanno

The Fantasy is the Reality of the Mind
Xxonemanwolfpax said:
Do you think kotal loses 7-3 to sub still? even with the new patch with his pizza toss?
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He's 6-4 in favor of GM Sub Zero. If not for that pizza that can cross through the Ice Klone, this would be 7-3 in Sub's favor. And it depends to whom is first cornered to get punished. If Sub Zero gets cornered, it's game over for him, too, because there aren't many options left to get out of the corner, like he used to pre-patch.

I play often against my buddy's Sun God, so I know very well his MUs.
 
Xxonemanwolfpax

Xxonemanwolfpax

LFF_PAX
Tanno said:
He's 6-4 in favor of GM Sub Zero. If not for that pizza that can cross through the Ice Klone, this would be 7-3 in Sub's favor. And it depends to whom is first cornered to get punished. If Sub Zero gets cornered, it's game over for him, too, because there aren't many options left to get out of the corner, like he used to pre-patch.

I play often against my buddy's Sun God, so I know very well his MUs.
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ok ok, can you explain the 6-4 leatherface match up? Also why is bartitsu a even match up?
 
Tanno

Tanno

The Fantasy is the Reality of the Mind
Xxonemanwolfpax said:
ok ok, can you explain the 6-4 leatherface match up? Also why is bartitsu a even match up?
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Leatherface is a weapon guy, since he has the chainsaw. The only variation that fucks Sub is the Pretty Lady. Maybe he can swing around, but cannot cross Ice Klone, so he gets frozen spot on. To avoid the chainsaw, you need to do F42xxIce Klone often and dash back. The rest is a matter of time to get him down.

Bartitsu is a weapon variation for Bo Rai' Cho. You need to do the same F42xxIce Klone, Dash Back on him to avoid his bartitsu. His Bartitsu has the ability to grab you from afar like Alien's Tail Grab. There's, also, his fart. His fart is like Ice Klone to prevent you from getting near him. Sub Zero and Bo Rai' Cho have their own best corner games, so whoever gets cornered it's game over for him. There's, also, his bartitsu spin, which serves as the reflect to send back the projectiles. The strongest variation against GM is Dragon Breath.

Now you know the reasons.
 
Xxonemanwolfpax

Xxonemanwolfpax

LFF_PAX
Tanno said:
Leatherface is a weapon guy, since he has the chainsaw. The only variation that fucks Sub is the Pretty Lady. Maybe he can swing around, but cannot cross Ice Klone, so he gets frozen spot on. To avoid the chainsaw, you need to do F42xxIce Klone often and dash back. The rest is a matter of time to get him down.

Bartitsu is a weapon variation for Bo Rai' Cho. You need to do the same F42xxIce Klone, Dash Back on him to avoid his bartitsu. His Bartitsu has the ability to grab you from afar like Alien's Tail Grab. There's, also, his fart. His fart is like Ice Klone to prevent you from getting near him. Sub Zero and Bo Rai' Cho have their own best corner games, so whoever gets cornered it's game over for him. There's, also, his bartitsu spin, which serves as the reflect to send back the projectiles. The strongest variation against GM is Dragon Breath.

Now you know the reasons.
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he said 7-3 all variations, when pretty lady does pretty well against sub. That's why I questioned it
 
Tanno

Tanno

The Fantasy is the Reality of the Mind
Xxonemanwolfpax said:
he said 7-3 all variations, when pretty lady does pretty well against sub. That's why I questioned it
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Maybe he didn't have much MU experience against LF? Maybe he found a way to get close to Pretty Lady against his zoning? Either case, we won't know, unless he clarifies his reasoning. Other than that, I know it very well that PL fucks GM, because he jumps around and zones on him.
 
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