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Discussion The productive way to compare characters

Would you like to see a tool like this implemented in TYM?

  • Yes

    Votes: 27 67.5%
  • No

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • You could have written a Salt Report in the time it took to write this

    Votes: 13 32.5%

  • Total voters
    40

SneakyTortoise

Official Master of Salt
So, this was a thread I was going to wait until I2 came about before writing, but as we are at Tier list season once again (despite the patch dropping just over 2 weeks ago, you animals) I thought that it could be a good time to bring it up and see what you all thought.

We all know that everyone around here loves a tier list, but I am going to try my best to steer people away from them and towards the more productive discussion method where the character's important aspects are visualised and directly compared as a whole.

The way I believe this has been perfectly implemented in is infil's KI guie. And I urge everyone to check it out, specifically the character page, to get an idea of how effective and useful something like this can be.

The tool basically looks like this:


Here, you can see that the key components of the game, that can contribute to a character being good or bad, are each rated and visualised. This is a much more honest approach to discussing characters as you can directly show what they are good and bad at, and then let someone else decide whether that's what they want from a main/side character, rather than just giving them an arbitrary 3rd of 7th tier list placement.

Now, for something like this for MKX, we'd obviously change what the key points of the radar chart are. And the best part is that, as the meta of the game changes and the impact of the tools a character has changes in importance, we can change these points to reflect that. So we can discuss as a community what the key components should be, then each character forum can try to come to a consensus of how their character chart would look, top players can present theirs, and then we can compare them and discuss how it plays out.

I think something like this would also be valuable, not only for comparing characters, but also for character guides. Straight away the author would be able to show the character's strength and weaknesses and the reader can decide if that's the type of character they want to learn.

I have no experience in writing code or creating websites, but I'm pretty sure that incorporating something like this into a website isn't too difficult, as it is just an excel chart that you can interact with. @STORMS @Alien Substance (not sure who knows about that kind of thing, but thought I'd tag for your input/thoughts)

TLDR: Characters should be compared with their qualities and weaknesses visualised, rather than just through arbitrary ranking.
 

SneakyTortoise

Official Master of Salt
looks really cool, is it run by one person or will everyone vote on the stats or whatever?
I'd imagine that each community could present one for their character, then the rest of us could discuss and regulate.

This would be infinitely better at judging each character. However, I'd say it might be a better implementing this in Injustice 2. As great an idea as this is, it would be nearly impossible to accurately account for nearly a hundred variations.
I do agree with you, which is why I was going to wait until closer to I2 to bring it up. However, I thought it would at least be productive to have a discussion about it and figured it would take time to implement something like this into TYM, should the owners want to.
Although, for the sake of testing the system out, we could get around it by either using this to compare each character's best variation (like when a tier list by character is made where you're assuming you're using the appropriate variation for any MU) or having one of the categories of the radar as "versatility of variations"
 

God Confirm

We're all from Earthrealm. If not, cool pic brah.
I'd imagine that each community could present one for their character, then the rest of us could discuss and regulate.
the worst people to ask about how good a character is? the people who play that character. The best people to ask? The people who play against it. If anything the way to do it would be excluding community from their own character - or just setting it up automated so that everyone can vote numbers on anyone and the tool just constantly updates averages
 

Dankster Morgan

It is better this way
I think it's a good idea and would definitely help, but the points definitely need to be weighted. Like in this game the zoning point wouldn't be as important as the mixups point. A character like Boneshaper is still probably worse than a character like Cryomancer even though they check way more boxes.
 

God Confirm

We're all from Earthrealm. If not, cool pic brah.
I think it's a good idea and would definitely help, but the points definitely need to be weighted. Like in this game the zoning point wouldn't be as important as the mixups point. A character like Boneshaper is still probably worse than a character like Cryomancer even though they check way more boxes.
not if the graph is done right
 

SaltShaker

In Zoning We Trust
I do agree with you, which is why I was going to wait until closer to I2 to bring it up. However, I thought it would at least be productive to have a discussion about it and figured it would take time to implement something like this into TYM, should the owners want to.
Although, for the sake of testing the system out, we could get around it by either using this to compare each character's best variation (like when a tier list by character is made where you're assuming you're using the appropriate variation for any MU) or having one of the categories of the radar as "versatility of variations"
That would definitely be cool. I like the "community adds and then regulates" idea. When a HQT pops up and it says they barely having zoning for example it would be changed.

This should be the the way to judge imo also. Nothing is perfect, but it's much better than "my character is B Tier because I lose some MUs".
 

Rozalin1780

Good? Bad? I'm the one with the fans
the worst people to ask about how good a character is? the people who play that character. The best people to ask? The people who play against it. If anything the way to do it would be excluding community from their own character - or just setting it up automated so that everyone can vote numbers on anyone and the tool just constantly updates averages
I think a one sided view of a character, either way, isn't a good way to evaluate a character. Both sides need to be taken into account. With this format or comparison, it theoretically would be easier to compare character traits more honestly.

For example, have each category be evaluated on a 5 or 10 point scale (this is usually the case for such graphs). The community could easily establish which characters are the best and worst in each. Then it is just a matter of comparing the middle with those. Example: If Predator were top in zoning and Ferra/Torr the worst, you could then say Shinnok is closer to Predator than Ferra/Torr in this area. So on and so forth.

Overall, I think it's a good idea. Anything to promote constructive discussion is a good thing.
 

Daemantalo

Not Good Enough
Can I get some clarification? Reason why I ask is I'd like to take this type of ranking for a test run on one of my characters I know inside and out.

1. What is "Instinct?"
2. What would "Defense" classify as? Specify please. Like armor? Tools that could keep an opponent away (falls under zoning & footsies)
3. Would staggers, command grabs, character speeds, and mix-ups all make up "Rushdown?"
 

PunkMafia83

PSN: YaRnToNpUnKMAFIA
It's great but would have to be reviewed as the meta and patches change. Think of how deathstroke evolved with the meta and patches.

I still approve!
 

SneakyTortoise

Official Master of Salt
I think it's a good idea and would definitely help, but the points definitely need to be weighted. Like in this game the zoning point wouldn't be as important as the mixups point. A character like Boneshaper is still probably worse than a character like Cryomancer even though they check way more boxes.
This is the main point of it. Trying to say which is better, cryo or bs is a bit redundant as they both excel at different things and have their weaknesses. This system would allow us to see these differences and appreciate the characters for what they are.

@SneakyTortoise thanks for tagging me on this. I sent them a message on twitter. If they would be up for doing something like this for us, I'd definitely be up for it.
That's awesome. Would appreciate being kept up to date with that please

Can I get some clarification? Reason why I ask is I'd like to take this type of ranking for a test run on one of my characters I know inside and out.

1. What is "Instinct?"
2. What would "Defense" classify as? Specify please. Like armor? Tools that could keep an opponent away (falls under zoning & footsies)
3. Would staggers, command grabs, character speeds, and mix-ups all make up "Rushdown?"
Sorry, I should have been more clear. That was a screenshot straight from the KI guide, so "Instinct" would not apply.
An example of what the categories could be for MKX are:

  1. Neutral control
  2. Mobility
  3. Armour
  4. Meter Building
  5. Zoning
  6. Offence
  7. Variation versatility
It's great but would have to be reviewed as the meta and patches change. Think of how deathstroke evolved with the meta and patches.

I still approve!
Of course, that would be easy as the categories could be edited and filtered. i.e. if one particular category turned out to be not very important as the meta changes, it could be removed and any new categories could be added
 

Bilbo11

Noob
this is a wicked idea! would be interesting to see how we get the data though, if its just a vote? Most people just jam what ever and don't really care. Would have to have a pool of about 50 honest people and see how it turns out.
 

SneakyTortoise

Official Master of Salt
this is a wicked idea! would be interesting to see how we get the data though, if its just a vote? Most people just jam what ever and don't really care. Would have to have a pool of about 50 honest people and see how it turns out.
I don't think it would be a good idea to do it through a voting system. It would be more of a case of members from each character community to work together to present one, which could then be discussed and regulated with the rest of the community
 

KrstffrMunk

Bane/Black Manta/Captain Cold
First off, this is a great idea and I hope to see this implemented sometime.

Reliability and trustworthiness of the charts are key as previously stated, but voting in some fashion might not be a bad idea still.
Won't the majority of TYM vote semi-reasonably, or am I just delusional?
I'd like to think our vocal majority actually isn't a majority at all, and with just flat numbers more of us would be inclined to throw in our 2 cents.

Also, these graphs might benefit from being completely reset whenever major patches arrive.
 

Second Saint

A man with too many names.
Didn't m2Dave have a thread similar to this awhile back? Anyways, I'm all for active open discussion about the individual strengths and weaknesses of a character.