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Discussion 10/21/16 Tier List (Spicy)

Wigy

Wigy

There it is...
TheGangstaFace said:
It wouldn't be off topic. It's a tier discussion. He's got a safe overhead, the D4 THE cancels, the good staggers. You say he has no Defence but he's got 6f D3, D4 (no need to explain) and good fireballs. Only thing he lacks is a wakeup
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His d3 is 7 frames and -9 on block. It is not good.

His d1 is 8 frames

His d4 is great in certain matchups but its whiff punishable and not usable as a fast poke.

Only high wakeups.

You're sounding like you dont know what your talking about and are just saying dem cancels tho.

The cancels have to be done on block and hit with the same speed even though hit cancels 5 frames faster, this means hitconfirms from f2 skc and f24 skc cannot be used like before. You either convert off the mixup or get plus frames.

The plus frames mean very little as he gets one run cancel and his options after that are a jailing 11 string (2 frame jail into a high) into staggers or a garbage mixup or a throw or 114 for +2.

If you wana do skc into f24 they can backdash on read or poke if you're not inhumanly crispy.

His 11 staggers are about the only good part of his pressure now. All his cancels are slow, nearly impossible to jail with consistency and lead to very little danger.

His mixup midgame used to be better but not they have 5 more frames block a f2 after a rc.

He hasnt got a good tool as a pressure starter if hes trying to get in, half the time you'll have to a f3 DC to check them in foosties cause universal stamina nerf. If he gets poked doing any cancels hes totally out of stamina with weak up close pokes and armour.

Hes a rushdown character who's fastest mid is 11 and fastest high is 9. His only fast poke is horrific on block armour is bad

@Mikemetroid has said from day 1 a list was good, and now agrees hes fucked
 
TheGangstaFace

TheGangstaFace

Psn, Xbox, Twitter: TheGangstaFace
Wigy said:
His d3 is 7 frames and -9 on block. It is not good.

His d1 is 8 frames

His d4 is great in certain matchups but its whiff punishable and not usable as a fast poke.

Only high wakeups.

You're sounding like you dont know what your talking about and are just saying dem cancels tho.

The cancels have to be done on block and hit with the same speed even though hit cancels 5 frames faster, this means hitconfirms from f2 skc and f24 skc cannot be used like before. You either convert off the mixup or get plus frames.

The plus frames mean very little as he gets one run cancel and his options after that are a jailing 11 string (2 frame jail into a high) into staggers or a garbage mixup or a throw or 114 for +2.

If you wana do skc into f24 they can backdash on read or poke if you're not inhumanly crispy.

His 11 staggers are about the only good part of his pressure now. All his cancels are slow, nearly impossible to jail with consistency and lead to very little danger.

His mixup midgame used to be better but not they have 5 more frames block a f2 after a rc.

He hasnt got a good tool as a pressure starter if hes trying to get in, half the time you'll have to a f3 DC to check them in foosties cause universal stamina nerf. If he gets poked doing any cancels hes totally out of stamina with weak up close pokes and armour.

Hes a rushdown character who's fastest mid is 11 and fastest high is 9. His only fast poke is horrific on block armour is bad

@Mikemetroid has said from day 1 a list was good, and now agrees hes fucked
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I was told it was 6 frames, my bad. Off 1 Frame by a poke? Don't know what I'm talking about. And are you kidding me? Whiff punishing his D4? Who's doing that aside from probably Kotal? I can say that about any characters pokes in the game pretty much. Also D4 low profiles so hard the shit goes under D1's. Also I ALREADY mentioned he has no wakeup. Also D'vorah mains have had the same cancels for the longest and nobody made an excuse for that. Also the nerf to armored launchers helps his pressure as well. Also 11 frame advancing mid isn't bad at all. That's good. Youre listing it as a con wtf? But I will give you the standing 1 should probably be faster
 
Tanno

Tanno

The Fantasy is the Reality of the Mind
Revenant Zero said:
Sub-Zero shouldn't be S-Tier, he's in general A+ Tier.
Individually: Unbreakable went from C to A+, Cryomancer went from B to S- and GM stayed the same.
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Since the nerf on stamina and JIPs, I would say that GM is now A Tier.
 
Shaikhuzzaman

Shaikhuzzaman

magicmeerkatman
BlackJackSnack said:
Since no one has posted a recent tier list, and I'm slow at work I thought I would take the liberty of upsetting some people. This tier list is based on the best variation used for each character depending on the matchup.



*No particular order in each tier*



S: Sonya, Takeda, Sektor, Sub Zero, Shinnok, Mileena


A+: Jason, Kitana, Ermac, Quan Chi, Smoke, Kano


A: Cassie, Predator, Reptile, Goro, Liu Kang, Cyber Sub, Scorpion, Bo'Rai Cho


B+: Kenshi, Jacqui, ?Johnny Cage?, Alien, Tanya, Tremor, ?Leatherface?, Kung Lao


B: Kotal Kahn, Raiden, Erron Black


C: Kung Jin, Ferra/Torr, D'Vorah


D: Cyrax, Jax




I admit I am not a guru so there will be obvious things people are gonna want changed, please comment and explain somewhat so I can update this as it's out.
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Can you explain to me your thoughts about cyber sub? In my opinion he should be in the worst tier, maybe I'd even make a new tier for him
 
hayatei

hayatei

Noob
takeda is too high fam. unless lasher somehow stayed broke, but i think he still loses bad to a lot of zoners like mournful/pyro. i could see it tho, hes the closest thing to the old tarkatan alien in his current state
 
SaSSolino

SaSSolino

Soul Stealing Loyalist
hayatei said:
takeda is too high fam. unless lasher somehow stayed broke, but i think he still loses bad to a lot of zoners like mournful/pyro. i could see it tho, hes the closest thing to the old tarkatan alien in his current state
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Every variation of his is S, besides maybe lasher witch I don't know enough
 
hayatei

hayatei

Noob
after further review ive come to the conclusion dat i disagree with like 3/4 of this list

B+: Kenshi, Jacqui, ?Johnny Cage?, Alien, Tanya, Tremor, ?Leatherface?, Kung Lao


B: Kotal Kahn, Raiden, Erron Black

jacqui tremor kung lao leatherface kenshi raiden should all be way higher. especially raiden who i believe is one of the contender for top 5 atm.
 
Wigy

Wigy

There it is...
TheGangstaFace said:
I was told it was 6 frames, my bad. Off 1 Frame by a poke? Don't know what I'm talking about. And are you kidding me? Whiff punishing his D4? Who's doing that aside from probably Kotal? I can say that about any characters pokes in the game pretty much. Also D4 low profiles so hard the shit goes under D1's. Also I ALREADY mentioned he has no wakeup. Also D'vorah mains have had the same cancels for the longest and nobody made an excuse for that. Also the nerf to armored launchers helps his pressure as well. Also 11 frame advancing mid isn't bad at all. That's good. Youre listing it as a con wtf? But I will give you the standing 1 should probably be faster
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i play with people who make me scared to throw out my d4.

D'vora is a different character with different tools and pressure.

after a rc if you're like most people and cant reliably get a 2 frame jail you have to check them with f3 dc.
That means your pressure string was f3 rc f3 dc and the pressure is over. Lol. He has no long 3 hitting hitconfirmable staggerable mid string like cassie dvora jax liu etc.

That allows you to continue pressure with staggers and get your stamina back.

A safe overhead is to be expected when he has no low. But if you get caught by lots of f2s from cage in his current state thats 100% on you.

His d4 is great, though people exaggerate at times. The issue at the moment is the stupid stamina dependence, all these other pressure characters have long 3 hit mid strings which help with getting in and stamina. Jc doesnt. He has to blindly hitconfirm shit into dc which is bad.

When he gets in he has no proper mixup outside staggers and grab (hes +0 on his grab and it pushes half screen)
His d1/d3 are below average, which is stupid for a rushdown character
His fastest move is 9frames.
He struggles to get in on certain characters big time now.

Tl/dr his offence just isnt scary no mixups and if you wana check them with f3 dc your pressure is well and truely over, he struggles more getting in, his defence sucks, his air control is crap, zoning is decent in some Mu's.

Hes not guna win majors with grabs d4's and occasional force ball which is basically what he is now.
 
CrazyFingers

CrazyFingers

The Power of Lame Compels You
hayatei said:
after further review ive come to the conclusion dat i disagree with like 3/4 of this list

B+: Kenshi, Jacqui, ?Johnny Cage?, Alien, Tanya, Tremor, ?Leatherface?, Kung Lao


B: Kotal Kahn, Raiden, Erron Black

jacqui tremor kung lao leatherface kenshi raiden should all be way higher. especially raiden who i believe is one of the contender for top 5 atm.
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FINALLY! Someone who realizes how good Leatherface. Hayatei the god.
 
ienjoywinning

ienjoywinning

Noob
Tweedy said:
Most boring tier list incoming, because I think the game is decently balanced.

S: Ermac, Predator, Smoke, Mileena, Sonya, Jason

A+: Sub Zero, Quan, Reptile, Sektor, Kitana, Kano

A: Shinnok, Kotal Khan, Raiden, Liu Kang, Takeda, Goro, Tanya, Kenshi, Tremor, BRC, Kung Jin, Jacqui, Scorpion, Kung Lao

A-: Johnny Cage, Alien, Erron Black, Cassie, D'vorah, Leatherface, Cyber Sub Zero

B+: Jax, Cyrax

Edit: Going by best variation. Balanced Kenshi is definitely not A tier for example.
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Pred isn't 'S , a+
 
hayatei

hayatei

Noob
ronin legit isnt dat great for many reasons right now

i count 16 characters who have atleast 1 variation that beats it

it doesn't matter cuz no one will ever know the match up asides for my training partners and the top players. it's legit been like that since ive been competing and i don't think that will suddenly change until we are all done with the game
 
T

T-box88

Noob
BlackJackSnack said:
Since no one has posted a recent tier list, and I'm slow at work I thought I would take the liberty of upsetting some people. This tier list is based on the best variation used for each character depending on the matchup.



*No particular order in each tier*



S: Sonya, Takeda, Sektor, Sub Zero, Shinnok, Mileena


A+: Jason, Kitana, Ermac, Quan Chi, Smoke, Kano


A: Cassie, Predator, Reptile, Goro, Liu Kang, Cyber Sub, Scorpion, Bo'Rai Cho


B+: Kenshi, Jacqui, ?Johnny Cage?, Alien, Tanya, Tremor, ?Leatherface?, Kung Lao


B: Kotal Kahn, Raiden, Erron Black


C: Kung Jin, Ferra/Torr, D'Vorah


D: Cyrax, Jax




I admit I am not a guru so there will be obvious things people are gonna want changed, please comment and explain somewhat so I can update this as it's out.
Click to expand...
Replace sektor with preds. Sektor has severe low profiling issues. F2 may as well be a high all things considered. Lazer cancel pressure is strictly better than 114 and 1112, both have gaps and can be back dashed free. I thought sektor was gunna be really good too do to the shift of the game being more footsie and projectile based. But he lost his 50/50's. Preds has a similar low profiling problem, but its made up for in much stronger zoning and footsies with discks and d4.
 
TheGangstaFace

TheGangstaFace

Psn, Xbox, Twitter: TheGangstaFace
Wigy said:
i play with people who make me scared to throw out my d4.

D'vora is a different character with different tools and pressure.

after a rc if you're like most people and cant reliably get a 2 frame jail you have to check them with f3 dc.
That means your pressure string was f3 rc f3 dc and the pressure is over. Lol. He has no long 3 hitting hitconfirmable staggerable mid string like cassie dvora jax liu etc.

That allows you to continue pressure with staggers and get your stamina back.

A safe overhead is to be expected when he has no low. But if you get caught by lots of f2s from cage in his current state thats 100% on you.

His d4 is great, though people exaggerate at times. The issue at the moment is the stupid stamina dependence, all these other pressure characters have long 3 hit mid strings which help with getting in and stamina. Jc doesnt. He has to blindly hitconfirm shit into dc which is bad.

When he gets in he has no proper mixup outside staggers and grab (hes +0 on his grab and it pushes half screen)
His d1/d3 are below average, which is stupid for a rushdown character
His fastest move is 9frames.
He struggles to get in on certain characters big time now.

Tl/dr his offence just isnt scary no mixups and if you wana check them with f3 dc your pressure is well and truely over, he struggles more getting in, his defence sucks, his air control is crap, zoning is decent in some Mu's.

Hes not guna win majors with grabs d4's and occasional force ball which is basically what he is now.
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I think Tweedy honestly said it on point. Johnny plays the game like Lao now. Lao isn't bad at all. He's pretty damn good lol. But as far as the jailing goes, Idk how he's doing it now but @GOOD DRAGON was a freak pre patch and jailed everything (i hate you). You may not jail but other Johnnys do. Youre right about not being able to hit confirm but there's also an option for keeping it safe without having to cancel if for some reason you think you spaced it wrong or you think you might screw up the cancel with F34 and if it hits, it has 34 hr advantage and you can forward Dash all the way to your opponent before they can even wakeup. It works the same way as Jax's F3 imo. Which is really good. You also have the option to spend the bar on Ex fireballs for plus frames for good chip and to substitute your cancels. Youre +4 which obviously doesn't jail but in the corner it's strong and there's no armored launchers anymore to worry about and F3 can catch some characters back dashes in the game afterwards and even the ones that can escape by backdashing they have to do it twice or hold block afterwards. And yeah F2 you can fuzzy but that's not 100% consistent and it can be made safe and if you get opened up but it thats a full combo into a restand into at least guaranteed chip along with +2 staggers. His throw doesn't really matter also cuz most characters don't wanna be full screen against Johnny where you can't neutral duck his fireballs so he forces you to move in on him
 
Wigy

Wigy

There it is...
TheGangstaFace said:
I think Tweedy honestly said it on point. Johnny plays the game like Lao now. Lao isn't bad at all. He's pretty damn good lol. But as far as the jailing goes, Idk how he's doing it now but @GOOD DRAGON was a freak pre patch and jailed everything (i hate you). You may not jail but other Johnnys do. Youre right about not being able to hit confirm but there's also an option for keeping it safe without having to cancel if for some reason you think you spaced it wrong or you think you might screw up the cancel with F34 and if it hits, it has 34 hr advantage and you can forward Dash all the way to your opponent before they can even wakeup. It works the same way as Jax's F3 imo. Which is really good. You also have the option to spend the bar on Ex fireballs for plus frames for good chip and to substitute your cancels. Youre +4 which obviously doesn't jail but in the corner it's strong and there's no armored launchers anymore to worry about and F3 can catch some characters back dashes in the game afterwards and even the ones that can escape by backdashing they have to do it twice or hold block afterwards. And yeah F2 you can fuzzy but that's not 100% consistent and it can be made safe and if you get opened up but it thats a full combo into a restand into at least guaranteed chip along with +2 staggers. His throw doesn't really matter also cuz most characters don't wanna be full screen against Johnny where you can't neutral duck his fireballs so he forces you to move in on him
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You want to compare these tools to the rest of the cast.

The bottom line is his presssure cant really open up characters properly like it used to. When lao grabs hes + 14 or something.

Jc has good footsies with f3 (when he has stamina) and alright staggers with zoning in some matchups.

Hes still a rushdown character with slow buttons and no mixups. The +frames off everything used to glue it all together. Now its just kind of janky ghetto pressure with no defence. Spending a bar for +4 is not a good idea anywhere.

Hes stamina reliant to a rediculous extent for his whole game.

@IrishMantis has said the same thing, hes mid tier now.

I still play him hes fun but just nothing stands out at all. Liu kang is just a more complete character in like every way.

As far as im aware tweedy only plays lao and alien? Why is he a source of knowledge on cage. Could be completely wrong here.

Cage is one of these characters you need to play a lot to understand.
 
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TheGangstaFace

TheGangstaFace

Psn, Xbox, Twitter: TheGangstaFace
Wigy said:
You want to compare these tools to the rest of the cast.

The bottom line is his presssure cant really open up characters properly like it used to. When lao grabs hes + 14 or something.

Jc has good footsies with f3 (when he has stamina) and alright staggers with zoning in some matchups.

Hes still a rushdown character with slow buttons and no mixups. The +frames off everything used to glue it all together. Now its just kind of janky ghetto pressure with no defence. Spending a bar for +4 is not a good idea anywhere.

Hes stamina reliant to a rediculous extent for his whole game.

@IrishMantis has said the same thing, hes mid tier now.

I still play him hes fun but just nothing stands out at all. Liu kang is just a more complete character in like every way.
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Lao's grab is +14 cuz he doesn't have decent zoning lol and you don't need the jailing for pressure. And a bar for +4 is definitely good in the corner and it does like 3-4% chip
 
Wigy

Wigy

There it is...
TheGangstaFace said:
Lao's grab is +14 cuz he doesn't have decent zoning lol and you don't need the jailing for pressure. And a bar for +4 is definitely good in the corner and it does like 3-4% chip
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Hahah that was meant to say 'spending a bar for +4 is not useful anywhere but in the corner'

Lao has tools jc doesnt vice versa. I was just trying to say jc cant play like lao cause nothing is guaranteed after a grab.

Hes basically a crappy rushdown with zoning that only sorta works in some matchups.

Most top johnny players agree hes now midtier. You dont play him enough to really get how he works i suspect.

Hang on a minute. Whats your name on psn?
 
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TheGangstaFace

TheGangstaFace

Psn, Xbox, Twitter: TheGangstaFace
Wigy said:
Hahah that was meant to say 'spending a bar for +4 is not useful anywhere but in the corner'

Lao has tools jc doesnt vice versa. I was just trying to say jc cant play like lao cause nothing is guaranteed after a grab.

Hes basically a crappy rushdown with zoning that only sorta works in some matchups.

Most top johnny players agree hes now midtier. You dont play him enough to really get how he works i suspect.

Hang on a minute. Whats your name on psn?
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I don't have psn and I have 2 friends that play Johnny a lot fam
 
Wigy

Wigy

There it is...
TheGangstaFace said:
I don't have psn and I have 2 friends that play Johnny a lot fam
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I have friends who play many characters, doesnt make me an expert. When mike metroid and irish mantis both agree hes mid tier now and before that was always very good, that carries more weight than your perception based on playing friends.

Most of the community would never have cage anywhere close to top 10 now. You're the only person i've heard saying hes still really good.
 
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