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Discussion The Dilemma of Armor Attacks

Do you agree with the "one size fits all" approach to launching armor attacks?


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You mean those game where everyone s super defensive option a.k.a do is punishable and does low damage instead of having 2 hit of armor and be safe
what?

Anyway. I suppose it's worth noting that my issues with this change are entirely based on the assumption that a single meter bar is a scarce and valuable resource. This is an assumption I am not really prepared to defend. If you're getting knocked down there's a good possibility that you probably have a meter to burn.

So yeah.. how often would it really even happen where someone gets nocked down and they don't have a bar to introduce the wakeup threat?

I guess I'd need to start playing this game again to know for sure, but it's entirely possible that meter isn't pas precious and the preservation of it doesn't need to be considered as much as I think it does.
 

Konqrr

MK11 Kabal = MK9 Kitana
I normally don't agree with m2dave... but he nailed it here.

Number one is my exact issue with this. There's no risk for just running at someone and pressuring. The aggressor gets to just ignore the possibility of getting blown up for over committing because there are no such things as invincible start up reversals that lead to any respectable damage anymore.

The 50/50 meta that everyone bitched about got buffed. If you get HKD once, there's no way you are getting up without spending a meter and risking getting blown up anyway.

It almost seems as if these changes were implemented without any sort of consideration as to how armored reversals were used defensively. Not so much being entirely useful all the time because they were always punishable, but the threat of them being an option at least kept aggressors on their toes.

Now they don't even have to worry about that? If sonya knocks you down, good luck getting up.

there is a reason why pretty much every single other game has invincible startup frames on non metered wakeups. A change like this requires invincible startups. It just does.
Several characters had their overhead option slowed down or taken away so the mixup can now be fuzzy guarded.

The stamina bar was reworked so that it runs out faster and if you get hit while running, you lose a stamina bar! Don't tell me there are no more defensive options.

Anti airs are better.

This game is more about controlling space now like it was in mk9... like a fighting game should. Most, if not all, characters have 2-hit armor "get off me" moves that reset the neutral which is great.

This game is way better off than it was before.

I was done with this game after evo, but now i have a reason to play it again that seriously has nothing to do with kitana being my main.
 

SaSSolino

Soul Stealing Loyalist
They are an incredibly strong tools to give just to a few characters that actually need them, like Warlock Quan Chi witch has lost any reason to be picked.

However NO armored launcher should be safe on block, and those armors that don't launch and are safe on block should still have a way to be punished, like JC's ex shadow kick, witch can be ducked and punished afterwards.

EDIT: No command grab should have armor either.
 
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Pig Of The Hut

Day 0 Phenomenal Dr. Fate and Darkseid player
You know what threads/thread/tweets/status updates were never made? The following:

"GOD I CANT DO ANYTHING ABOUT KENSHI EX RK OR KENJUTSU EX DB4, gooooood God NRS why is kenshi so BROKENNNNNN, plz god NERF THIS"

Yea

Ex RK was a scrub killer and blew up bad fundamentals from bunny rabbit jumpers and punishable like hell on block (-17 and ex db4 -29)
 
Several characters had their overhead option slowed down or taken away so the mixup can now be fuzzy guarded.

The stamina bar was reworked so that it runs out faster and if you get hit while running, you lose a stamina bar! Don't tell me there are no more defensive options.

Anti airs are better.

This game is more about controlling space now like it was in mk9... like a fighting game should. Most, if not all, characters have 2-hit armor "get off me" moves that reset the neutral which is great.

This game is way better off than it was before.

I was done with this game after evo, but now i have a reason to play it again that seriously has nothing to do with kitana being my main.
I'm not saying that your anti airs and pokes for defending rush downs aren't better now, because they unquestionably are. Neutral defensive options are significantly improved. My concerns are surrounding wakeups exclusively.

Slowed down overheads are a big step in the right direction as well. that's true.

It is great that characters have the "get off me" moves, but why do you need to have meter for them to even be an option? I'm just saying if armored launchers don't have armor anymore, then the regular versions of said get off me moves should have invincible start up frames. If that happened, I'm totally fine with the removal of armored launchers.

I'm not even sure if it would be possible, but what about something like regular non launching / non combo starting specials get invincible startups, but the specials that could juggle still didn't have invincibility? Like.. specials that reset situations to neutral would have invincible startup on wakeup, but specials that led to juggles or started combos wouldn't. This is sort of what exists, but only with meter. I'm just saying that it should be this way without meter too.

You'd still have a meterless static "get off me" threat, but you wouldn't have invincible launchers. I think that's pretty fair.
 

YUZU_RZA

Aftershock | Crystalline | Metallic
so is tremor abysmal again :DOGE ?

obviously a lot of chars got hurt by these changes, and just need to adjust their playstyle
we will see how the new meta turns out, free armored launchers shouldnt be in the game in the first place
edit:
also, they did tone down +frames a lot, and with the increased cost of stamina, i think the whole armored attacks not launching, is a welcome change
Tremor never been abysmal in his entire lifetime on this game.

Like you said, free armored launchers shouldnt be in the game but,

EX Low Launcher was needed in the past version of MKX cuz tremor doesn't have any poke or mid, and the game was too much armor dependent.

In this meta the character is much better than ever cuz the 3 variation are viable. And we got the poke & a true mid now.

Except it's not because you can still use it to mix people up in more than one string. On top of that, as a Tremor - you have a freakin Flash Parry that gives any of your moves/specials 1 hit armor after you cancel the EX DB2 into run. With it you can literally get armored: wakeups/ reversals, jailing, mixups.

And while you have Flash parry - you want additional armored/safe'ish EX Low Shatter that launches? That's nonsense.

Oh and metallic in Lava skin, without EX Punch parry, also has another, two hit armored parry from EX DB1. So yeah...

Long story short: Adapt.
I totally agree with you sharp. Now you can still mix people with a free safe low launcher. We still have the FLASH PARRY ( the only one in this game ) and a fckin 2 hits armor parry in LAVA.

A better corner pressure & a 14f Mid. #TremorsReborn
 
REO hit the nail on the head.

Bad mechanic is a bad mechanic, even if a character needs it. Better to adjust the character to work without it then keep it.

I remember this whole drama in KI when they made juggles breakable. It really hurt some characters, but they Had To Go.

I always thought it was really odd that armored launchers were committed from the 50/50 complaints. I'm +4 but I need to guess if any button I press is going to put me in a full kombo?
 
All valid points.

I think about a game like street fighter.. Where if you knock someone down and try to keep pressuring, there's always the threat that you're gonna get wakeup DPed. What if that threat didn't even exist without meter?

I don't see how anyone would be in favor of something like that. there are characters where this is the reality. In MKX it's now a reality for everyone. I'm probably not going to be convinced that this is a good idea.
I m pretty sure they are some anti DP set up I may be wrong though
 

Ger187

Noob
Yeah i used Cyrax from time to time, he is a personal favorite of mine, not a main though. I seen that too. but even though he is not Cyrax anymore i dare say. He is still strong in this meta. sadly it seems he won't be able to HTB or Setplay like Cyrax always have, they did ruin that aspect of Cyrax now. But he will still have Resets that are very hard to armor like: F13 xx EX BuzzSaw RC B2 RC 4 xx Net Dash forward B1 F43 xx EX Air Grab 4 xx Net DF2 F43 F43 Air Grab 55%-60% almost 1-5 frame link where i have lighted in red!
why you use b1?
 

ismael4790

Stay focused or get Caged
REO hit the nail on the head.

Bad mechanic is a bad mechanic, even if a character needs it. Better to adjust the character to work without it then keep it.

I remember this whole drama in KI when they made juggles breakable. It really hurt some characters, but they Had To Go.

I always thought it was really odd that armored launchers were committed from the 50/50 complaints. I'm +4 but I need to guess if any button I press is going to put me in a full kombo?
I honestly don't see what's bad in armor launchers that get me full punished if I fail them, really. Dave made some clear and super valid points imo. Armor launchers not negative enough or with stupid blockstun needed to be adjusted, that's for sure. But eliminating all of them is really drastic, specially when the tools that should compensate from the loss are not enough in some cases.
 

SHAOLIN

内部冲突
Only thing I can really add to this conversation, is to say that now we are all on the same page when it comes to armor moves.

It has transformed to armor launcher > get combo > start your offensive pressure to armor through someone offensive > back to neutral > play footsies.

I do have one thing to add. . . Kitana is gonna be a problem.
 

ChaosTheory

A fat woman came into the shoe store today...
Supporting armored launchers based on being necessary to anti-air is an indictment of aerial attacks' power. Dumb shit should be toned down as opposed to creating more dumb shit to combat it. If jump-in attacks are still an issue (it's been two days, btw) then adjustments should be made to them directly.

Supporting armored launchers to get out of pressure gets us back to the meta game that apparently the majority didn't like. Turn-stealing and counter-counter-poking to that level got tiresome. It still exists, but is toned down along with the overall aggressive options. Armor is a perk for your meter-management and you shouldn't have to completely rely on it as your sole option to get out of pressure. And after less than 48hrs, I can't bring myself to believe we have concrete exceptions yet.

Some players might have hard habits to break because the existence of armored launchers has influenced how they mentally approach so many situations in general. In some cases you could be talking about 5+ years and 3 separate games worth of habits and/or mental approach.
 

Amplified$hotz

Done with MK1. Stop supporting a scam company
I agree with REO and Shazzy. Removing armored launchers helps to see what the game is really lacking. Block breakers being better could help a lot.
 
I don't really even think it requires any significant time frame to identify what the game needs once armored launchers are gone. It becomes obvious REALLY fast.

I have only one question left here.. Why don't regular wakeup specials (that don't combo) have invincible startup frames?

Someone said that there was a reason they don't. What exactly is that reason?

In MK9 regular wakeups had invincible startups.. Did anyone think that was bad? I certainly don't remember anyone complaining about it.
 

STB Sgt Reed

Online Warrior
Armor is busted, and I think trying to balance a game around something as polarizing as armor is not the way to go. Having weaker or less attacks with armor would be better than having a game with overpowered armor attacks that dictate way too many things and result in a less enjoyable experience.
*starts slow clap*
 

Rude

You will serve me in The Netherrealm
Nobody asked for all the characters in the roster to get a universal armor launcher (punishable or not) removal that didn't take into account the particular gameplan of each character, and if someone did, i call him stupid right now.

A good patch treats each character individually, looking the good points and the flaws and tries to make him/her better. A bad patch applies the same rule to everyone without thought.

One of the primary talking points made about the game was it's lack of consistency. NRS tries to address that with how armor works by making it consistent and people complain.

This patch has done way more good than bad for the game.