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Discussion The Nerfed to "Sh*t" & "Now Useless" Stigma

REO

Undead
I feel like this thread needs to be made because way often than not, we have players or individuals claim a character has been nerfed to "useless", "shit", "completely unviable", and much more being prematurely thrown around each update. It's to the point where it's starting to become a trend with each patch.

We've seen it happen with Raiden, Erron Black, Sub-Zero, Quan Chi, Shinnok, Tanya, Cassie Cage, Triborg, Scorpion, Predator, Tremor, etc. etc. where almost all of these characters at one point were called "dead" and claimed to have no use in the game after their "butchering".

Sure some varations of these characters may have been over normalized by a bit, but it's never been the case in MKX where a character from the roster has all of a sudden become a training dummy and has no place in the game.

Many of the Mileena and Alien players panicking on social media claiming that their character may now be "ruined" need to take a moment and realize that... It's never really happened before, and there's about a 1% chance it happens in the next big update hitting. Especially with a patch that has had seven months in the works.


TL;DR - Less claims and outrage of characters now being "shit" because of nerfs. The character that you think may become nerfed to "shit" in the upcoming patch will most likely still be good and have their uses.
 

Skedar70

Noob
Ok this is why I think Ethereal Mileena may be dead. If ball roll can only combo with meter Ravenous and Piercing will be fine, Ethereal mileena will be severely meter hungry. In this variation she only gains fade. Regular fade is almost useless. So the only real good move she has is EX fade, but this also requires meter which she wont have because she will be spending it in combos that give less damage than the other variations(28-32% maybe). Now Ethereal Mileena doesn't have B12 to contest in the neutral and help her build meter. She also doesn't have the low sai to say that you can build meter by zoning and keeping away. So what will this variation have... Nothing. I will still try to make it work... will see.
 

ChaosTheory

A fat woman came into the shoe store today...
So since Cryomancer got a command grab...

Does Cryomancer now invalidate Sun God?
Sun God is my #2 behind Grandmaster. Very intrigued by the command grab. I anticipate a decent damage reduction for Cryo and Kotal still has better normals/staggers. Excited to compare and contrast those two variations.
 
I'm waiting to for a few things

1) the crop of players saying the character wasnt bad and scrubs got them nerfed (top to bottom complained about Mileena so these people are beyond help.

2)the ones who say they can't open someone up without (insert over powered toolset here)

3) the ones who actually acknowledge the high powered arsenal some of these characters had and agree with the normalizations
 

REO

Undead
Ok this is why I think Ethereal Mileena may be dead. If ball roll can only combo with meter Ravenous and Piercing will be fine, Ethereal mileena will be severely meter hungry. In this variation she only gains fade. Regular fade is almost useless. So the only real good move she has is EX fade, but this also requires meter which she wont have because she will be spending it in combos that give less damage than the other variations(28-32% maybe). Now Ethereal Mileena doesn't have B12 to contest in the neutral and help her build meter. She also doesn't have the low sai to say that you can build meter by zoning and keeping away. So what will this variation have... Nothing. I will still try to make it work... will see.
Ethereal being meter hungry is fine. Some characters are balanced by being very meter reliant. If Ethereal could build meter super easy and always have access to a bar, then she would be insane because of how ridiculous and potent EX Fade is as a move. She does a decent job building meter against some characters with the use of her zoning, fade keep away, and strings. EX Fade is such a strong move and shuts down some characters extremely well. It's also one of the best wake-ups in the game. Watch Saltface use her to get an idea, Ethereal is really good.

Characters should feel like they're missing something in an area or have a weakness. They're usually a fairly balanced character in most cases. (depending on the game's meta) Characters that don't feel like they're missing anything big and have every tool you could want are usually the messy top tier characters that are sometimes a mistake.
 

Skedar70

Noob
Ethereal being meter hungry is fine. Some characters are balanced by being very meter reliant. If Ethereal could build meter super easy and always have access to a bar, then she would be insane because of how ridiculous and potent EX Fade is as a move. She does a decent job building meter against some characters with the use of her zoning, fade keep away, and strings. EX Fade is such a strong move and shuts down some characters extremely well. It's also one of the best wake-ups in the game. Watch Saltface use her to get an idea, Ethereal is really good.

Characters should feel like they're missing something in an area or have a weakness. They're usually a fairly balanced character in most cases. (depending on the game's meta) Characters that don't feel like they're missing anything big and have every tool you could want are usually the messy top tier characters that are sometimes a mistake.
I agree. Ethereal is really good as she is right now and I think she is fair. However, if she doesn't get anything in return for the roll change then I really doubt she won't die. For example, Ex fade will now require 2 bars in order to be effective as a wake up, 1 for ex fade and 1 for comboing after the roll once the opponent whiffs after the exfade. Plus you will only get around 28 to 30% because she doesn't have the enders that she has in the other variations. This is just speculation from what they have given us so far. We will have to wait and see when the patch drops.
 

REO

Undead
I agree. Ethereal is really good as she is right now and I think she is fair. However, if she doesn't get anything in return for the roll change then I really doubt she won't die. For example, Ex fade will now require 2 bars in order to be effective as a wake up, 1 for ex fade and 1 for comboing after the roll once the opponent whiffs after the exfade. Plus you will only get around 28 to 30% because she doesn't have the enders that she has in the other variations. This is just speculation from what they have given us so far. We will have to wait and see when the patch drops.
I'm pretty sure she can get a full combo off almost any EX Fade link cancel on hit right now if you do B+3,4~Air Sai launcher or instant NJP after.
 

Skedar70

Noob
I'm pretty sure she can get a full combo off almost any EX Fade link cancel on hit right now if you do B+3,4~Air Sai launcher or instant NJP after.
Yeah that might be a workaround, but it might be a little slow for whiff punishes after ex fade. I will try it and see.
 

REO

Undead
Yeah that might be a workaround, but it might be a little slow for whiff punishes after ex fade. I will try it and see.
I just tested and can confirm Ethereal can use NJP or B+3,4~Sai launcher string after some EX fade strings on hit to do combos.

If you don't have meter, I suppose you can do any string cancelled into tele kick and then air sai to get some guaranteed pressure, throw attempts, or staggers afterwards.

F+1,2,B+4~Tele Kick~Air Sai as an example for a very basic combo does 22% damage and leaves you plus afterwards which isn't too bad, IMO.
 

Eddy Wang

Skarlet scientist
I'm looking forward to this patch, hopefully for the first time nothing is way too over the top.

What i really need is just some consistency, less random factors and good responsiveness overall, the rest is easy.
 

MadeOfMetal

Kenshi Srubtastic,Cyrax, Special Forces Mains
I feel like this thread needs to be made because way often than not, we have players or individuals claim a character has been nerfed to "useless", "shit", "completely unviable", and much more being prematurely thrown around each update. It's to the point where it's starting to become a trend with each patch.

We've seen it happen with Raiden, Erron Black, Sub-Zero, Quan Chi, Shinnok, Tanya, Cassie Cage, Triborg, Scorpion, Predator, Tremor, etc. etc. where almost all of these characters at one point were called "dead" and claimed to have no use in the game after their "butchering".

Sure some varations of these characters may have been over normalized by a bit, but it's never been the case in MKX where a character from the roster has all of a sudden become a training dummy and has no place in the game.

Many of the Mileena and Alien players panicking on social media claiming that their character may now be "ruined" need to take a moment and realize that... It's never really happened before, and there's about a 1% chance it happens in the next big update hitting. Especially with a patch that has had seven months in the works.


TL;DR - Less claims and outrage of characters now being "shit" because of nerfs. The character that you think may become nerfed to "shit" in the upcoming patch will most likely still be good and have their uses.
This actually needed to be said. Great thread. not only does this happen on Other media like Twitter, Facebook, youtube, Google, but happends Notoriously on TYM and its getting ridiculous. like right now Mileenas are acting like She is dead before they have actually seen what it is about. and then other haters of Mileena think its aBuff and are overreacting to that. Nice timing on thread and Good work.

I think this is how it should have been done from the beginning. Wait over 6 months for patches. this could be the best patch to date. They actually have had tiome to think about how each change effects each character, and most likely have tested fully each single nerf/buff's impact.

Many other games allow 6 months for Changes, and i think MK should have done that as well. and maybe we would not have had Bottom tiers becoming S tier/A+ over the course of 3 instant patchs/Hotfixes. or characters getting 27+ buffs/Nerfs in a single month.
 

Darth-Nero

Come Thunder! Come Lightning!
So since Cryomancer got a command grab...

Does Cryomancer now invalidate Sun God?
Yeah that's what i said in the other thread as well. Cryo now have access to the easiest 33/33/33 in the game, He will have much easier time opening people up to a ridiculous amount of unscaled damage. No more reason to play Sun God.
 

MadeOfMetal

Kenshi Srubtastic,Cyrax, Special Forces Mains
Yeah that's what i said in the other thread as well. Cryo now have access to the easiest 33/33/33 in the game, He will have much easier time opening people up to a ridiculous amount of unscaled damage. No more reason to play Sun God.
that could have been said about, Commando, but i don't think it invalidates any character. there are plenty of reasons to use different Grapplers like Jason vs Kano vs SunGod vs now Cryo. they have completely different Moves normals, Timings, Strategies. I.E. Jason is more so rushdown Grappler, while Sungod is more of a Space Control Grappler, and Kano is the Parry machine with nice counters. so they all have thier own Specific reasons to use each Grappler in the game.
 

MadeOfMetal

Kenshi Srubtastic,Cyrax, Special Forces Mains
I think most characters got hadled well, Lao, Predator, Liu, Cassie, etc. The only character I think got OVER normalized was Tanya, she should have kept her db4 combo ender. That nerf was not needed.
wat about Cyrax/CSZ and what about the Shit job they have done buffing Kenshi. not for lack of trying. but damn he Abysmal
 

MadeOfMetal

Kenshi Srubtastic,Cyrax, Special Forces Mains
How has no one brought up reptile in this thread
don't know about any changes to him as of yet, but as he stands right now, if top is nerfed he could hop up to top tier. he is an all around great character, Great Zoning, Good Gap Closers(ways to get in) nice run speed, Decent Backdash. Great Neutral, nice Footsie Range. Great Damage. what is this character missing, its not safew Overheads cuz check Plus 1 on Block Overhead, and Safe Low ?

what exactly happened that you would think he is Dead?
 

Darth-Nero

Come Thunder! Come Lightning!
that could have been said about, Commando, but i don't think it invalidates any character. there are plenty of reasons to use different Grapplers like Jason vs Kano vs SunGod vs now Cryo. they have completely different Moves normals, Timings, Strategies. I.E. Jason is more so rushdown Grappler, while Sungod is more of a Space Control Grappler, and Kano is the Parry machine with nice counters. so they all have thier own Specific reasons to use each Grappler in the game.
Yeah non of those have an overhead, low and command grab that all lunch into full combos. As far as things are going i can see unbreakable getting buffed enough to invalidate commando Kano as well.
 

Tweedy

Noob
What Alien players are panicking?

Us Alien players knew that this day was coming. I haven't seen any Alien player that I know, freaking out.

We're just spending the remaining days that the perfect organism has left, in peace. Whether Paulo taketh too much, or only taketh a little, these final days will be cherished.
 

Lanqu

Noob
don't know about any changes to him as of yet, but as he stands right now, if top is nerfed he could hop up to top tier. he is an all around great character, Great Zoning, Good Gap Closers(ways to get in) nice run speed, Decent Backdash. Great Neutral, nice Footsie Range. Great Damage. what is this character missing, its not safew Overheads cuz check Plus 1 on Block Overhead, and Safe Low ?

what exactly happened that you would think he is Dead?
no more frightning aa of ex swipe? No more mind game after blocked swipe? no more punishes for klone?
 

BlackJackSnack

Bags of mostly water
It is sad to see everyone saying a character is a shitter bc they got normalized.

Imo there isn't hardly any buffs that need to be given, I think we just need to take some of the dumbness away so every character has a better chance.

some charcters that are "unviable" are actually in the best state as far as making the game fair, they just have to deal with some characters (mileena, alien) overwhelming tools, which need to be toned down.