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Strategy - Summoner 5 bats with one bar of meter - The Potential of The Tile Vortex

JDM

JDM

Noob
Zionix said:
its things like this that make me scared for a patch.

I'm labbing cyrax (1 week old) and I found an extremely easy HTB reset after 30% from any hit confirm and 33% for 1 bar and safe OH/LOW. This launches/armor breaks (slides and lao) and stops back dashes and can be followed up with 22% or 31% with a bar.

This is totally unoptimised, i'm terrible with cyrax so i'm sure theres plenty room for improvement. I've seen the set-ups currently but they are harder timing and longer combos for not much more payoff.

To make my point clearer. Yes cyrax has terrible reversal options and a somewhat lacking neutral, but if he does 52% or off a 111 net punish and spend 1 bar for 61% in total after reset; is it scary to give him better reversal armor or a true mid?

Whats shown here could EASILY happen in a tournament situation. What if quan gets boofed :eek:.

p.s so glad the tile couldn't use this on me :p
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Cyrax is fucking garbage man. I've used him since day 1 and have absolutely ridiculous setups with him but his neutral is terrible. I'm better with Cyber Sub and have barely ever practiced him. Take cyrax into real matches before you get ahead of yourself (not being a dick, being genuine. The character is a struggle)
 
STB Shujinkydink

STB Shujinkydink

Burning down in flames for kicks
legion666 said:
I think both times you go for the overhead in this video it can be backdashed/armoured. Funny thing is it isn't maximum damage you can get and both overhead and low can be made guaranteed. For example after you do B324,NJP,rc,2xxtrance, bat summon you can stick in a d3 (or even a s4 but it is way harder) before the trance hitstun expires, and it will actually do more damage in total. But yes the HTBs are only guaranteed when Ex Trance is used.
But on the other hand guys @STB Shujinkydink @The_Tile - let's not post more optimal/broken stuff until the patch drops)

There is a shitstorm coming...
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I've played around with d3 and personally found its easier just to go for mixup as I miss the d3 sometimes and get countered. Then I get the extra frames. I've never been armoured cause there's always the fear of b3 as well
 
Zionix

Zionix

AKA Ponkster
JDM said:
Cyrax is fucking garbage man. I've used him since day 1 and have absolutely ridiculous setups with him but his neutral is terrible. I'm better with Cyber Sub and have barely ever practiced him. Take cyrax into real matches before you get ahead of yourself (not being a dick, being genuine. The character is a struggle)
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You think I don't know?

What i'm saying is give a character like cyrax a good neutral and then what? He is one step away from god tier (not that i'd mind).

He isn't garbage aswell. Unbreakable is garbage. He is just average.
 
legion666

legion666

Noob
STB Shujinkydink said:
I've played around with d3 and personally found its easier just to go for mixup as I miss the d3 sometimes and get countered. Then I get the extra frames. I've never been armoured cause there's always the fear of b3 as well
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I can get that) online I usually do it the you are describing it. But offline I think I have gotten those d3s pretty consistently. One of the players I play online even gets confused when we get together for offline sets. He is used to blocking a mix up or armoring right after the Summon online that when offline I do a d3 there he thinks he just ate a mix up,or that his armour didn't come out and then I go for b3 or b2 (or even a HTB) which he isn't even trying to block at that point)
 
A

angry bruiser

Noob
appreciate the effort, but if summoner's honestly been reduced to what's shown in OP vid, i have no idea how people are going on about 'quan is still great'?!

the offense is literally on the same level as every other char that gets a 50/50 off a combo ender, with lower average damage while he also has the worst defense in the game, no reversal and high meter dependency. i'll break down what the video shows:
21% combo from a low starter in neutral into:
24% damage combo with 1 bar from an overhead starter into:
18% damage 'hard to blockable' into:
25% damage low starter.

pretty much every other char with 50/50s on knockdowns or enders do the same or more damage (average combo damage for those 4 is 22%.) the only thing there that's stronger than average is the hard to blockable, but that's 18% for 1 bar if you want to keep offense.

it's not like i'm saying he's worst in the game (far from it,) but his offense isn't nearly as strong as anyone here is trying to make out. most other chars are on the same level as current quan in terms of mixup strengths, some are stronger, and almost all have stronger block-pressure, defense and reversals.
 
Reactions: JDM
STB Shujinkydink

STB Shujinkydink

Burning down in flames for kicks
angry bruiser said:
appreciate the effort, but if summoner's honestly been reduced to what's shown in OP vid, i have no idea how people are going on about 'quan is still great'?!

the offense is literally on the same level as every other char that gets a 50/50 off a combo ender, with lower average damage while he also has the worst defense in the game, no reversal and high meter dependency. i'll break down what the video shows:
21% combo from a low starter in neutral into:
24% damage combo with 1 bar from an overhead starter into:
18% damage 'hard to blockable' into:
25% damage low starter.

pretty much every other char with 50/50s on knockdowns or enders do the same or more damage (average combo damage for those 4 is 22%.) the only thing there that's stronger than average is the hard to blockable, but that's 18% for 1 bar if you want to keep offense.

it's not like i'm saying he's worst in the game (far from it,) but his offense isn't nearly as strong as anyone here is trying to make out. most other chars are on the same level as current quan in terms of mixup strengths, some are stronger, and almost all have stronger block-pressure, defense and reversals.
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Oh yeah not trying to prove that at all. Buff skydrop please
 
Meep8345

Meep8345

Noob
angry bruiser said:
appreciate the effort, but if summoner's honestly been reduced to what's shown in OP vid, i have no idea how people are going on about 'quan is still great'?!

the offense is literally on the same level as every other char that gets a 50/50 off a combo ender, with lower average damage while he also has the worst defense in the game, no reversal and high meter dependency. i'll break down what the video shows:
21% combo from a low starter in neutral into:
24% damage combo with 1 bar from an overhead starter into:
18% damage 'hard to blockable' into:
25% damage low starter.

pretty much every other char with 50/50s on knockdowns or enders do the same or more damage (average combo damage for those 4 is 22%.) the only thing there that's stronger than average is the hard to blockable, but that's 18% for 1 bar if you want to keep offense.

it's not like i'm saying he's worst in the game (far from it,) but his offense isn't nearly as strong as anyone here is trying to make out. most other chars are on the same level as current quan in terms of mixup strengths, some are stronger, and almost all have stronger block-pressure, defense and reversals.
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Are you crazy lol he basically has a pre-patch Cassie level vortex... Yeah he does have to open them up to have the safe 50/50's or just call out a bat in the neutral while they respect his zoning or something but that damage adds up in that SAFE vortex. His defense and meter dependency is still a huge problem but a safe vortex is crazy good offense to me.
 
A

angry bruiser

Noob
Meep8345 said:
Are you crazy lol he basically has a pre-patch Cassie level vortex... Yeah he does have to open them up to have the safe 50/50's or just call out a bat in the neutral while they respect his zoning or something but that damage adds up in that SAFE vortex. His defense and meter dependency is still a huge problem but a safe vortex is crazy good offense to me.
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i dunno, by default in most fighting games, any vortex is generally 'safe' (because most fighters have safejumps, even on ambiguous crossups.)

i strongly disagree with his offense being "crazy good." i think most of the other chars are easily at the same level, with some being far better. especially when you consider that they have 50/50s that lead into more 50/50s (exactly the same) except they also get way more than 18-24% damage from it. when they also have significantly better defense, meter management, and reversals, i have no idea why they're on-par with offense, as well.

and i especially don't get people who say quan is amazingly good or anything, since it's mathematically not correct. he used to have the strongest offense, now he has the same level of offense as everyone else while being weaker than most other chars in almost every other area as well. there is literally no reason to choose him over another. why choose him when you could choose a char with just as good offense, without any of the problems and glaring weaknesses?

my point here is that's exactly what i'm doing. i easily drop quan because i have no 'char loyalty' and there's no reason to choose him over another char when i'd get way more from them. i simply look at the toolsets and strengths. if you'd want strong offense, for instance, there are plenty of other chars that give you just as strong offense (and way stronger block pressure, not just loopable on-hit vortex) without any of the terrible weaknesses (and actual armor.) there's no reason to go quan over that if you want to win and don't have some absurd loyalty.
 
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JDM

JDM

Noob
you're not factoring in his great zoning as well dude. Quan has that advantage over most mixup characters. Top 3 zoner in the game with some of the best vortex options as well makes him a good character. I dropped him because I didn't feel like relearning him but he's still very good.
 
A

angry bruiser

Noob
JDM said:
you're not factoring in his great zoning as well dude. Quan has that advantage over most mixup characters. Top 3 zoner in the game with some of the best vortex options as well makes him a good character. I dropped him because I didn't feel like relearning him but he's still very good.
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i think zoning's too bad in this game for it to really matter much that he's top 3 in it. any vortex char has access to the same options as quan aside from hard to blockable 18% combo for 1 bar. if you think strong zoning (when zoning is very weak) and a meter-costly low-damage hard to blockable is worth the trade-off of the poor defense, strings, block pressure and lack of reversal/armor, then we see things very differently.

i thought he was worth it when his offense was clearly the best at the cost of being the worst defensively. now most of his mixups are on-par with most others, his damage is lower than average and he has some of the worst block pressure in the game.

i almost always play glass-cannon type chars with the strongest offense, but when that offense gets toned down to everyone else's level, i see no reason to play the glass cannon anymore.

ultimately it doesn't really matter, i'm simply sharing the reasons for why i dropped him.
 
Meep8345

Meep8345

Noob
angry bruiser said:
i dunno, by default in most fighting games, any vortex is generally 'safe' (because most fighters have safejumps, even on ambiguous crossups.)

i strongly disagree with his offense being "crazy good." i think most of the other chars are easily at the same level, with some being far better. especially when you consider that they have 50/50s that lead into more 50/50s (exactly the same) except they also get way more than 18-24% damage from it. when they also have significantly better defense, meter management, and reversals, i have no idea why they're on-par with offense, as well.

and i especially don't get people who say quan is amazingly good or anything, since it's mathematically not correct. he used to have the strongest offense, now he has the same level of offense as everyone else while being weaker than most other chars in almost every other area as well. there is literally no reason to choose him over another. why choose him when you could choose a char with just as good offense, without any of the problems and glaring weaknesses?

my point here is that's exactly what i'm doing. i easily drop quan because i have no 'char loyalty' and there's no reason to choose him over another char when i'd get way more from them. i simply look at the toolsets and strengths. if you'd want strong offense, for instance, there are plenty of other chars that give you just as strong offense (and way stronger block pressure, not just loopable on-hit vortex) without any of the terrible weaknesses (and actual armor.) there's no reason to go quan over that if you want to win and don't have some absurd loyalty.
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Well of course if you compare his mixups to demo,alien,etc he isn't special but characters like say scorpion wish they had his mixups (not that scorpion's mixups are bad) Also you can say that about every character almost like why play marksman erron when you can play cutthroat or why play venomous when there's acidic. Quan isn't bad his bat is crazy good, when his bat is up you can go crazy with zoning or just go in. I think if they just made ex sky drop 7 frames he'd be crazy good and make his normals/strings safer so he doesn't have to always spend meter.
 
A

angry bruiser

Noob
Meep8345 said:
Well of course if you compare his mixups to demo,alien,etc he isn't special but characters like say scorpion wish they had his mixups (not that scorpion's mixups are bad) Also you can say that about every character almost like why play marksman erron when you can play cutthroat or why play venomous when there's acidic. Quan isn't bad his bat is crazy good, when his bat is up you can go crazy with zoning or just go in. I think if they just made ex sky drop 7 frames he'd be crazy good and make his normals/strings safer so he doesn't have to always spend meter.
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i dunno, for any char who's built around mixups or pressure, i'd say most are pretty even with quan in terms of how scary it is. this is with also considering other pressure outside just low/overhead 50/50s, such as jc with his throw/cancel pressure, 'cause even if it's not a typical 50/50 it's still guesswork (like most stagger pressure in general.)

additionally, if you can say that about any character, that's not an argument against what i said; that's a criticism of the game design. at no point should anyone be able to make such statements, and the existence of such statements for other characters do not automatically invalidate that complaint about the relevant character we're discussing. there should be design differences and reasons like that, otherwise having the different variations exist is pointless in the first place if they overlap that much.

but yes, we clearly see things pretty differently. i don't think quan's bad, but i definitely don't think he's good, and i feel like for any of the reasons you'd have to pick quan, there are other chars that will give you the same, but also more.
 
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