Question - Grandmaster Deleted Account.

Immortal said:

Kenshi in any variation isn't remotely close to GM SZ so i really fail to see the analogy here.

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Kenshi midscreen > GM sub midscreen

And for the record, Sub is useless against Swarm D'Vorah, Demo Sonya, Piercing Mileena, Lasher Takeda, Shaolin Kung Jin, Alien, Aftershock Tremor, Mystic Ermac, and HQT Predator.
BUT, minus HQT and Tremor, those characters are high tier. If the patch were to balance those characters in such a way that it may interectly affect the SZ matchup, then he may become a problem. But let's not act like SZ is on the precipice of being broken, it's a long shot and a lot of characters need to catch the dick. I understand that for every D'Vorah, there is a Jax, but it's not like Sub is some undiscovered gem. He is a really good character, there are just even more messed up characters.
If you look at a variation tier list, Grandmaster would be pretty high up. But if you look at a character one I think Sub is around 17-20, bottom half. Not that it's bad, but that's just what Sub is.

Grand master is ok, he doesnt need buffs/nerfs

ragnar0kz28 said:

Grand master is ok, he doesnt need buffs/nerfs

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He only needs to fix the Ice Klone. Nothing else. The other variations need buffs/tweaks.

Dankster Morgan said:

And for the record, Sub is useless against Swarm D'Vorah, Demo Sonya, Piercing Mileena, Lasher Takeda, Shaolin Kung Jin, Alien, Aftershock Tremor, Mystic Ermac, and HQT Predator.
BUT, minus HQT and Tremor, those characters are high tier. If the patch were to balance those characters in such a way that it may interectly affect the SZ matchup, then he may become a problem. But let's not act like SZ is on the precipice of being broken, it's a long shot and a lot of characters need to catch the dick. I understand that for every D'Vorah, there is a Jax, but it's not like Sub is some undiscovered gem. He is a really good character, there are just even more messed up characters.
If you look at a variation tier list, Grandmaster would be pretty high up. But if you look at a character one I think Sub is around 17-20, bottom half. Not that it's bad, but that's just what Sub is.

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Piercing Vs. GM seems pretty even, IMO.

Revenant Zero said:

Piercing Vs. GM seems pretty even, IMO.

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There is a thread called "why does piercing dominate grandmaster?" In the Mileena forums if you want to see everyone's reasoning.

Tanno said:

He only needs to fix the Ice Klone. Nothing else. The other variations need buffs/tweaks.

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I dont think he needs anything maybe Unbreakable could get less damage scale, at this point I would only normalize the top tiers and leave the rest of the cast the way they are, no more tier shifting.

GM seems pretty balanced right now.

Damage scaling from shatter combos would be good I guess but most if not all casual players don't go for them. Tagging a 24-31% shatter combo with minimum inputs are good but 50-75% of the time, they won't connect and they would just pushback. So that shouldn't be a big concern.

If NRS... does anything with the clone now, I will cryo... man tears.

Increasing cool down on clone would probably break most defensive/bait and punish stratagems. Simply having the clone out and choosing whether to use it for a combo, throw it or let is halt your opponent would be scrapped.

Even more detrimental for all aspiring scrub-zeroes would be the jailing clone in the corner. Never mind the fact Sub-Zero is literally struggling for meter, has literally the easiest most basic move set, or has a lack of projectiles or teleport. But removing the clone from being done in the corner (not sure of the specifics) would be a HEINOUS crime. What, we are supposed to low block, back dash, ji2, b2 F42 into ice ball or EX now? No.

rubmytaco said:

That's bull. If you change his cornergame, you're changing clone. GM has terrible strings, slow pokes, and very unsafe 50/50s. He needs the clone badly in his current state, both in the corner AND midscreen. He needs to bully you to the corner and a lot of characters dont even care once they're there.

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Very unsafe 50/50s? WHAT? How is a -14 overhead with stupid pushback and a -8 low string 'very' unsafe? It's unsafe no doubt but the way you worded it it's like every time GM does a 50/50 he has Raiden b2 levels recovery. I also don't get how his strings are 'terrible' when most of them have utility.

thlityoursloat said:

Very unsafe 50/50s? WHAT? How is a -14 overhead with stupid pushback and a -8 low string 'very' unsafe? It's unsafe no doubt but the way you worded it it's like every time GM does a 50/50 he has Raiden b2 levels recovery. I also don't get how his strings are 'terrible' when most of them have utility.

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All strings into clone are punishable by a vast majority of the cast. B33 cancelled into ice ball is armorable, and good players will easily punish B2. So yeah, he's very unsafe. Every single thing he does can be punished and will be punished by seasoned players.

this thread is shit please close it

rubmytaco said:

That's bull. If you change his cornergame, you're changing clone. GM has terrible strings, slow pokes, and very unsafe 50/50s. He needs the clone badly in his current state, both in the corner AND midscreen. He needs to bully you to the corner and a lot of characters dont even care once they're there.

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See that's all well and good, but he at least has tools in the neutral to get you to the corner. When you have a character like high tech with a ridiculously strong corner game, but fuck all for neutral, people still complain about how strong her corner game is. Sub's corner game might not be as strong, but his ability to play neutral is vastly superior.

And get outta here with the "very unsafe 50/50s". Very unsafe is Ermac 50/50 into tele. Sub's hitconfirmable low and his overhead with weird block stop and good pushback might be unsafe, but it's not "very unsafe". Majority of the cast can't even punish it in the corner because clone is in the way.


Sub zero does not need significant nerfs. My changes would be:
- 7 frame d1
- regular and ex shatter have no pushback (unless a clone is shattered)
- universal invincibility when teching a throw (which would in turn get rid of sub's unblockable throw into clone; along with sonya's setup and other character unblockable bullshit)
- damage nerf to combos involving shatter (~5%)
- cryo hammer is -1 on block
- cryo air hammer is 0 on block from max height (more plus if it hits deeper)
- cryo air hammer is slightly faster (5 frames)
- unbreakable parry has better recovery (10 frames better)
- aura does DOT when active (similar to noxious)
- aura makes slide (and ex slide) -9 on block, he loses aura after a blocked slide
- aura gives shatter significant pushback and range (same as GM with a clone)
- regular aura startup 5 frames faster

Pan1cMode said:

See that's all well and good, but he at least has tools in the neutral to get you to the corner. When you have a character like high tech with a ridiculously strong corner game, but fuck all for neutral, people still complain about how strong her corner game is. Sub's corner game might not be as strong, but his ability to play neutral is vastly superior.

And get outta here with the "very unsafe 50/50s". Very unsafe is Ermac 50/50 into tele. Sub's hitconfirmable low and his overhead with weird block stop and good pushback might be unsafe, but it's not "very unsafe". Majority of the cast can't even punish it in the corner because clone is in the way.


Sub zero does not need significant nerfs. My changes would be:
- 7 frame d1
- regular and ex shatter have no pushback (unless a clone is shattered)
- universal invincibility when teching a throw (which would in turn get rid of sub's unblockable throw into clone; along with sonya's setup and other character unblockable bullshit)
- damage nerf to combos involving shatter (~5%)
- cryo hammer is -1 on block
- cryo air hammer is 0 on block from max height (more plus if it hits deeper)
- cryo air hammer is slightly faster (2-5 frames)
- unbreakable parry has better recovery (4 frames better)
- aura does DOT when active (similar to noxious)
- aura makes slide (and ex slide) -9 on block, he loses aura after a blocked slide
- aura gives shatter significant pushback.
- regular aura startup 5 frames faster

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I was reading that gm f4 cancel into ex clone is safe at plus 11 frames, is that calculated by subtracting the the block adv frames of f4 from the start up frames of ex clone, if this is wrong what is the formula to calculate how safe the cancel is for f4 into db2 ex, thanks

blue dragon said:

I was reading that gm f4 cancel into ex clone is safe at plus 11 frames, is that calculated by subtracting the the block adv frames of f4 from the start up frames of ex clone, if this is wrong what is the formula to calculate how safe the cancel is for f4 into db2 ex, thanks

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No, that's not exactly how it's calculated. It's based up on the cancel advantage of the f4 string as well as the startup and recovery of ex clone and the block advantage of f4.

It's a bit of a bitch to calculate using frame data alone so most people test by seeing what jails afterwards. For example, if you set the AI to reversal, if there is a gap in your block string the computer will be able to reversal out. Since d4 can jail after f4~ex clone, it must be at least +9.

You can test more accurately by recording and counting frames, but that generally requires specialised equipment.

Immortal said:

Nobody and i mean nobody not even Tom with his 15 years old girl like tantrums thinks that Kenshi is on the level of GM SZ. Coz its like night and day difference. Not to mention you're talking about 2 people when in bigger picture not even 1/100 of people who think Kenshi is trash (low tier) also think that GM SZ is bad. Simply because he isn't.

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oh the irony

Pan1cMode said:

See that's all well and good, but he at least has tools in the neutral to get you to the corner. When you have a character like high tech with a ridiculously strong corner game, but fuck all for neutral, people still complain about how strong her corner game is. Sub's corner game might not be as strong, but his ability to play neutral is vastly superior.

And get outta here with the "very unsafe 50/50s". Very unsafe is Ermac 50/50 into tele. Sub's hitconfirmable low and his overhead with weird block stop and good pushback might be unsafe, but it's not "very unsafe". Majority of the cast can't even punish it in the corner because clone is in the way.


Sub zero does not need significant nerfs. My changes would be:
- 7 frame d1
- regular and ex shatter have no pushback (unless a clone is shattered)
- universal invincibility when teching a throw (which would in turn get rid of sub's unblockable throw into clone; along with sonya's setup and other character unblockable bullshit)
- damage nerf to combos involving shatter (~5%)
- cryo hammer is -1 on block
- cryo air hammer is 0 on block from max height (more plus if it hits deeper)
- cryo air hammer is slightly faster (5 frames)
- unbreakable parry has better recovery (10 frames better)
- aura does DOT when active (similar to noxious)
- aura makes slide (and ex slide) -9 on block, he loses aura after a blocked slide
- aura gives shatter significant pushback.
- regular aura startup 5 frames faster

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I understand that you're comparing him to High Tech because you play that character, but how does him having more tools than High Tech make him have good tools midscreen? They're mediocre. B33 is hit confirmable if the opponent gets hit by the first low, which is almost never the case. Also, I'm not trying to make a point that GM is a terrible character, but I am saying that if you nerf his clone, he'll lose the advantage that he has over characters who he beats, and get destroyed worse by his bad match ups. I've said before that I'm all for adjusting the clone, but he needs something in return that makes him rely upon it less.

rubmytaco said:

I understand that you're comparing him to High Tech because you play that character, but how does him having more tools than High Tech make him have good tools midscreen? They're mediocre. B33 is hit confirmable if the opponent gets hit by the first low, which is almost never the case. Also, I'm not trying to make a point that GM is a terrible character, but I am saying that if you nerf his clone, he'll lose the advantage that he has over characters who he beats, and get destroyed worse by his bad match ups. I've said before that I'm all for adjusting the clone, but he needs something in return that makes him rely upon it less.

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I was making the comparison that having a 'weak' midscreen game isn't necessarily an excuse for having a stupidly strong corner game.

Pan1cMode said:

I was making the comparison that having a 'weak' midscreen game isn't necessarily an excuse for having a stupidly strong corner game.

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It isn't and I'd rather see it adjusted on both sides. Him relying on his corner game so much is the reason some of his bad match ups are so terrible.

rubmytaco said:

All strings into clone are punishable by a vast majority of the cast. B33 cancelled into ice ball is armorable, and good players will easily punish B2. So yeah, he's very unsafe. Every single thing he does can be punished and will be punished by seasoned players.

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How many characters get worthwhile punishes though? Most characters can either break the clone as soon as it comes out with a projectile or with an advancing armored special, characters like Kano, EB, non-Slasher Jason and Jax have to spend meter just to knock you away again.

thlityoursloat said:

How many characters get worthwhile punishes though? Most characters can either break the clone as soon as it comes out with a projectile or with an advancing armored special, characters like Kano, EB, non-Slasher Jason and Jax have to spend meter just to knock you away again.

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Jax gets a full combo punish and carries you to the corner, Kano gets a full combo punish, and even if it isn't full combo punish, you're still doing damage and taking your turn. There are also a bunch of characters that DON'T need to spend anything and get free pressure or a full combo punish.

rubmytaco said:

Jax gets a full combo punish and Kano gets a full combo punish.

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Que?

thlityoursloat said:

Que?

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If they spend meter, they get a punish. I don't understand what the problem is here. You're spending meter to take a good chunk of your opponent's life and carry them to the corner. It's not like if you don't punish the clone every single time, you're losing the match, because the only time the clone being between you is really relevant, is when you're in the corner. What's Sub Zero gonna do midscreen after he put that clone out?

Pan1cMode said:

No, that's not exactly how it's calculated. It's based up on the cancel advantage of the f4 string as well as the startup and recovery of ex clone and the block advantage of f4.

It's a bit of a bitch to calculate using frame data alone so most people test by seeing what jails afterwards. For example, if you set the AI to reversal, if there is a gap in your block string the computer will be able to reversal out. Since d4 can jail after f4~ex clone, it must be at least +9.

You can test more accurately by recording and counting frames, but that generally requires specialised equipment.

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will lab, thanks for being very specific that cancel adv of f4 and recovery of ex clone need to be factored into the calculation, will do what you recommended about ai reversal and d4 jailing after the f4xxdb2ex, thanks again

They'll make the clone stop coming out

Revenant Zero said:

Piercing Vs. GM seems pretty even, IMO.

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im sorry dude you seem like a nice lad but ive seen ur sub gameplay you do not know how to play this game enough to judge matchups and shouldnt post your opinion until u get good enough to grasp the basics of him at high level guys look I'm ok with people giving their opinion if they know how to play but this is simply unacceptable.