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Discussion Tiers and Their Effect on Game Balance

VerminatorX

VerminatorX

Noob
IMO one of the problems with MKX balance is that Neverrealm takes forever to release simple patch. If they were releasing hotfixes monthly, balance could be better polished and game would be fresher.

Last patch was 5 months ago, now boon teases upcoming balance patch which may be last, and I am 100% sure it won`t fix all balance issues, in fact, it may give birth to new ones, as Neverrealm tends to do.

Besides, who the fuck hypes up balance patches like they were dlc or expansions?
 
dennycascade

dennycascade

UPR_ghastem
Jokes aside OP I definitely agree with what you're saying, especially about the pre emptive nerfing. Pretty aggravating that they nerf things before people even have a chance to lab shit out. Another thing I hate is how they nerf simply whatever is cried about most and make balance changes around casual complaints. For example, Tremor's armor break oki in the corner with Up Rock. I'm sure maybe one or two people complained on TYM that it was too hard to block (and probably hundreds of YouTube comments), but no one with any matchup knowledge had a problem with the setup. They knew you had options to tech roll, delay wakeup etc but Paulo still pandered to the complainers and deleted Up Rock from Tremor's movelist. There have been other examples in the past and I'm sure there will be more in this next patch. Don't have much faith in their balancing decisions anymore lol
 
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GLoRToR

GLoRToR

Positive Poster!
CrazyFingers said:
Hey guys, CrazyFingers here and today I'm here to just talk about a few specific things involving balance for fighting games and where MKXL should probably want to be after its final patch is said and done. So without further ado, the points I will be covering are these.

  • When is a Top 5/10 list a list of characters that MUST be dealt with?
  • What is the final goal for a competitive game's balance team?
  • Finally, why "preemptive nerfing" is an unhealthy practice in a patch based fighting game.
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Well, you got this off your shoulder! lol
You took your time to write what you think and I applaud you for your dedication.

You need to understand that NRS doesn't CARE for balance so much as for revenues and as they see how well other games of this generation manage that, they try their own best at it.
Is it an easy task? No.
Why? Variations.

Any way you butter it, that's the side it will land. That is to say MK is incapable of the balance KI, SF, or other games praised for their relative character-viability have achieved, pretty much because in MK each character is 3 characters. (And then the issues with normals, jumping, hit priority and errenous frames)
It's good for a beta project but the game is bad because of it.

- A top 10 is a list of characters that must be dealt with if there are more than 10 characters, and the bottom 5 are unviable compared to the top 5.
- There is no "balance team". It doesn't exist. If NRS has one, they're probably shaking their head by now, saying what a horrible idea the variation system was in the end.
- "Patch based" is a horrible term. You need to understand that they are relying on patches because that is what their funding permits. If you look at more successful studios such as Blizzard for example, those guys patch their games too but the game is mostly finished when it is released, unlike anything NRS has ever made.

Nerfing is not pre-emptive, they know what each character can do and they have the numbers so they are aware of shit like inescapable frame traps. They land it and let it play because they know that whatever they do, players will whine.
 
TheGangstaFace

TheGangstaFace

Psn, Xbox, Twitter: TheGangstaFace
Blewdew said:
The Problem is if they nerf the puddle they also nerf venomous and BM which is stupid because the last thing these two characters need is to be toned down. But this has happened before *cough* cassie

And there is just no way sq can Break armor with it with the amount of recovery. As I said venomous and bm have the armor break setups, not sq
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No lol. SQ has a variation specific puddle
 
TheGangstaFace

TheGangstaFace

Psn, Xbox, Twitter: TheGangstaFace
Amplified$hotz said:
Uhhh why tag 16 bit as if he made the game? We don't know all the details behind why the game is the way it is. As fun as it is to say paulos vision who really knows who's to blame.
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Because he works at NRS and his opinion holds weight and might actually make a difference
 
Amplified$hotz

Amplified$hotz

Done with MK1. Stop supporting a scam company
TheGangstaFace said:
Because he works at NRS and his opinion holds weight and might actually make a difference
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I doubt he's going to make any real difference. None of these complaints are new, I'm sure NRS has heard them plenty of times. Any plans they have for the game have probably been finalized. It is what it is. Just have to wait and see.
 
CrimsonShadow

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
CrazyFingers said:
This creates things like Cyber Sub Zero in his current state. NRS didn't give it more than a month before they nerfed the ever loving shit out of him and now, a lot of people call him bottom 5 in the game and for good reason. This was most definitely a form of Preemptive nerfing. Another perfect example of this is Leatherface, in fact, this is possibly the BIGGEST example of it. Upon release Leatherface had a few notable things in his arsenal. In Killer, he obtained unarmorable unblockable setups that were either backdash or eat it. This was strong, but by no means something that needed to be nerfed, and yet NRS was SO FUCKING SCARED of this possibly making everyone mad that they took it away in the blink of an eye.
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I don't think that people understand that many times developers are nerfing tools, not tiers. They are nerfing specific tools or aspects of a character that cause that character to not be played how they wanted them to be played.

If this has side effects that end up reducing that character's 'tier', this is more than an issue with the character's design overall. And sometimes these things are unavoidable or hard to predict. But if a dev sees something and says "that's dumb/that's not how the character was intended to be played", or if players are depending mostly on one particular tool to the exclusion of the entire rest of that character's kit, they have the right to take it out.

It seems to be hard for people to understand that maybe Deathstroke was meant to do more than just shoot gunshots -- where he ends up after the nerf is tough to predict.

Also the *execution* of a nerf does not make the principle of that nerf wrong. I've noticed that in this community, if a character is nerfed or buffed, and the nerf/buffing ends up being a little too strong, the community argues that this character should never have been nerfed or buffed in the first place and that they were fine.

This couldn't be further from the truth. Just because a nerf or buff was too strong (and again, this is hard to predict -- remember "Why'd they over-buff Kenshi? Ferra Torr is broken tier now NRS what are you doing??") doesn't mean that nerfs/buffs weren't needed at all.

Remember, people were mainly complaining about the just-frame/hard to blockable stuff with CSZ -- but he was also hit with the general triborg nerfs as well because of the way the variation system tied all those characters together. Sometimes there are caveats in a game's code that make it hard to cherry-pick certain changes.

I notice that people only complain about the few times the developer gets this 'wrong', and almost never give them credit for all the changes they get right (which is usually the majority).

In any case, balancing a game is a lot trickier than people make it out to be.
 
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TheGangstaFace

TheGangstaFace

Psn, Xbox, Twitter: TheGangstaFace
Amplified$hotz said:
I doubt he's going to make any real difference. None of these complaints are new, I'm sure NRS has heard them plenty of times. Any plans they have for the game have probably been finalized. It is what it is. Just have to wait and see.
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He is a representative of the community and a valued employee. He helps with balancing. I agree that at this point it's probably already set whatever plans they have for mkxl but it's still worth hearing for future games
 
Juggs

Juggs

Lose without excuses
Lead Moderator
Premium Supporter
CrazyFingers said:
What is "Preemptive Nerfing" and Why is it Unhealthy for the Game
So, usually around incoming patch time you will see countless threads crying for nerfs and buffs. But one thing that I'm sure we have seen is "Nerf this guy 'just in case' he's op after the current top tier are gone". I will preface this by informing you of my AGGRESSIVE hatred of this mentality of thinking. Why do I hate this mentality? I am so glad you asked, I love a good rant. The reason this line of thinking is Unhealthy is simple. We have no way of TRULY knowing the outcome of them at their current state being in a game where the original oppressive top tier does not exist. This creates things like Cyber Sub Zero in his current state. NRS didn't give it more than a month before they nerfed the ever loving shit out of him and now, a lot of people call him bottom 5 in the game and for good reason. This was most definitely a form of Preemptive nerfing. Another perfect example of this is Leatherface, in fact, this is possibly the BIGGEST example of it. Upon release Leatherface had a few notable things in his arsenal. In Killer, he obtained unarmorable unblockable setups that were either backdash or eat it. This was strong, but by no means something that needed to be nerfed, and yet NRS was SO FUCKING SCARED of this possibly making everyone mad that they took it away in the blink of an eye. The other thing they snatched from him were both in Butcher, his now worst variation. He had a true vortex by ending combos in S22, which forced the opponent to guess and he ALSO had the fastest command grab in the game in the form of his 6f DBF 1. However, they took away BOTH of these. And these nerfs weren't based off of any concrete data, it was all "Just in case they're op" nerfs. This form of thinking can ALSO be applied to buffs, which is fucking terrifying and has created things like Piercing Mileena and Takeda. Characters who people constantly called trash, low tier etc that got more buffs than some characters get nerfs and buffs combined. This form of thinking causes for flimsy design that just makes the entirety of your game a balancing nightmare.
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100% agree and I've been saying this forever.

Firstly, everyone is grateful for NRS even doing any kind of post release patching/balancing. And we definitely need the patching portion of glitches, infinites, or anything overtly and undeniably broken. The problem is when the balance patches start dropping early and often, this is really bad for the life of the game, for many reasons.

Nerfing a character within a few months of the games release is unreasonable. There's not enough evidence to support or justify that character being nerfed. Of course, I'm not talking about the aforementioned broken characters that have for instance infinites, but that isn't a nerf to me, that's a patch. They're presumed to be OP at the current period in time of the games life, that doesn't mean they are in fact OP and need a nerf. Take a look at Bison in SFV. Many people, including many top players, thought he was top 3 and many also believed he was the best. If Capcom went the NRS route, he would have already been "normalized". But, it turns out, he wasn't as good as people thought, and is now considered (I believe) mid tier at best. The reason this happens is because people get better, they learn the match-up, they learn the game. But if Bison WAS nerfed, he'd be bottom or even garbage tier at this point, which is unacceptable... but happens frequently in NRS games.

And to be clear, this isn't really a blame game and hate speech on NRS. NRS complies with the wishes of the community. And the community cries loud and often because they know NRS will listen. It's a vicious cycle and ultimately the only side that can really change is NRS, because our community will always whine and complain, from the scrubs to the top players, it's in our nature.

Not to mention, this is a BIG reason our games die off so quickly. People who don't only play NRS games can't even keep up with all the balance changes, which are never "slight", they're always massive changes. These changes drastically change the game and match-ups, so you almost have to relearn the game each time the game is balance patched. Which the problem with that is, is that it happens every few months. NRS only players barely have the time to relearn the game every few months, people in other communities definitely don't and eventually drop the game.
 
Eddy Wang

Eddy Wang

Skarlet scientist
Juggs said:
And to be clear, this isn't really a blame game and hate speech on NRS. NRS complies with the wishes of the community. And the community cries loud and often because they know NRS will listen. It's a vicious cycle and ultimately the only side that can really change is NRS, because our community will always whine and complain, from the scrubs to the top players, it's in our nature.

Not to mention, this is a BIG reason our games die off so quickly. People who don't only play NRS games can't even keep up with all the balance changes, which are never "slight", they're always massive changes. These changes drastically change the game and match-ups, so you almost have to relearn the game each time the game is balance patched. Which the problem with that is, is that it happens every few months. NRS only players barely have the time to relearn the game every few months, people in other communities definitely don't and eventually drop the game.
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The absolute truth, thank you juggs, spot on.
 
CompleteMadness

CompleteMadness

Noob
You should of included your boss demo line, I'll do it for ya.:p



She can choose to delay grenade detonate, have it jail, do a 50/50 in there, maybe a throw. Who knows?! I'll tell you who knows, the Sonya player, because they are calling the shots. -CrazyFingers
 
Saltea Moonspell

Saltea Moonspell

"Mind Over Matter" I dont mind, and X dont matter
It seems that we are all worried about that once the top 5 get nerfed a new top five will arise. I would like to point a something out. There are differences between ...let's say AList and Acidic. Ronin and Cutthroat. All of these variations are strong. But they require different amount of dedication, talent. The core game is nothing alike.

So to Me, if I play Ronin and I am outplayed by AList then hell, I don't mind. I know that I got out played, not I was unable to punish shit that was going on!. Just my two cents on the topic.
 
Tweedy

Tweedy

Noob
hkriderz said:
EX Kunai is not just a "50 50". You have only one option. Mash and move your ass out of there unless you want to try your luck on a one frame HTB into 36, or maybe eat some plus 32.

Anyways, this game sadly is broken on a fundamental level. Launching mixups that are safe, plus, or even unsafe it doesn't matter, half/ full screen mixups with no hurtbox completely oblliterating neutral, NJPS and NJKs with stupid range that can be made plus, double hitting armor moves, Plus gapless jailing pressure, safe armored launchers...

List goes on. This is the core of the game, its what its based on. And this upcoming patch is not fixing any of that. Unless this patch is like 15 Gigs and redoes the games meta from scratch, I'm afraid this game will remain an infestation of the list above.

New patch is going to nerf the top 5 to the ground so people will start complaining, the low tiers will get buffed, some more than needed and become insane and some of the rest top characters will start being exposed after downplayers saved them from the nerfs, and that'll be it.

But you know, still hoping:DOGE
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Jump out and hit him, or hold the pressure.

EX kunai is a 50/50, nothing more.
 
hkriderz

hkriderz

Lin Kuei Scum, yellow robot enthusiast
Tweedy said:
Jump out and hit him, or hold the pressure.

EX kunai is a 50/50, nothing more.
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EX kunai into B2. Yeah try and hold that. He doesn't have to jump for it to be a HtB

and try and jump out of b2s range after a hard knockdown, I dare you
 
omooba

omooba

fear the moobs
First section started well ended pretty bad. Turned off everything else for me. I'm like alien reasons for being broke makes sense. Sonya makes sense. Kano, only touching the tip but still makes sense. D'vorah meeeeh wtv I'll give it to you. Jason bruuuuuuuuh. And then i realize there's no mileena in a discussion about top tiers but we saw Jason. Bruuuuuuuuh.
 
Tweedy

Tweedy

Noob
hkriderz said:
EX kunai into B2. Yeah try and hold that. He doesn't have to jump for it to be a HtB

and try and jump out of b2s range after a hard knockdown, I dare you
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Lol what?

Takeda's EX kunai is a prime example of how desperately this community needs to lab more.
 
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