Why high execution when low execution yields the same or better results?

Eddy Wang said:

You didn't mention that Kazuya to do good in Tekken besides fundamentals he also needs execution.

No offense to american players, but i laugh my ass off every time there is a stream and they pick a mishima to play, it just feels so basic, lol.

The kazuya player might have 10/10 execution but PEWGF its practically a 13f CH launcher he needs to maximize his damage and force people to respect his neutral far more than his other tools already does.

If a kazuya player can PEWGF you consistently as TMM does, you won't randomly be pressing buttons hoping to catch him off guard, because you knowing he is that consistent you're putting yourself at risk and subject to lose to this option because its not everyone that has brought that barrier down often.

I main Kazuya and i know it, i can't do PEWGF but if i did, not only i would have a more damaging 13F CH launcher, but my opponents would actually think twice before throwing me certain attacks i can counter with df2.

just my 2cents on this though, my opinion is, hard execution characters are fine, when the barrier gives a level of layer that brings strong options to the table, which in turn makes that character worth playing.

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Sure you are right about that. But what I wanted to point out is that execution alone is nothing to really bet on. Kazuya is a special case here. But if we focus on execution alone we will quickly notice that noone will ever come far with it.

Btw its only a few months left bro i am counting the days for t7 *.*

Pan1cMode said:

So does Jacqui? Except hers do way more damage and are 100% safe without any gaps to armour through.

Jacqui undeniably has the better vortex.

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How does Shotgun make her 50/50s + enough on block to guarantee another? Yeah Jacqui does have the best vortex midscreen. In the corner however...

And with 1 bar of meter and the bat, which he still gets off most touches for free, Quan can end any vortex in a 50/50 plus enough to guarantee another with ExSkull and the bat covers the gap. In fact, if you try to armor I punish you and put you back in the same situation. And if not? I'm plus enough for another safe mixup anyway.

On top of this Quan has various ways in which he can make a read to get yet another mixup, like not sending the bat to break your armor and saving it for plus frames instead. This then allows him to make the next 50/50 plus on block without even spending meter.

Plus if he ever needs to build meter, he can swap any mixup attempt for a F212xxRune instead. This sequence builds around half, or just over IIRC, a bar which then allows the next mixup to be cancelled into ExSkull again for plus frames.

But anyway, I meant set play in general, not just specifically off a vortex. Summoner is the master of setplay from any touch, in the neutral or on oki, on block or on hit.

The_Tile said:

How does Shotgun make her 50/50s + enough on block to guarantee another? Yeah Jacqui does have the best vortex midscreen. In the corner however...

And with 1 bar of meter and the bat, which he still gets off most touches for free, Quan can end any vortex in a 50/50 plus enough to guarantee another with ExSkull and the bat covers the gap. In fact, if you try to armor I punish you and put you back in the same situation. And if not? I'm plus enough for another safe mixup anyway.

On top of this Quan has various ways in which he can make a read to get yet another mixup, like not sending the bat to break your armor and saving it for plus frames instead. This then allows him to make the next 50/50 plus on block without even spending meter.

Plus if he ever needs to build meter, he can swap any mixup attempt for a F212xxRune instead. This sequence builds around half, or just over IIRC, a bar which then allows the next mixup to be cancelled into ExSkull again for plus frames.

But anyway, I meant set play in general, not just specifically off a vortex. Summoner is the master of setplay from any touch, in the neutral or on oki, on block or on hit.

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Shotgun literally kills you with one wrong guess. I don't see how being able to loop mixups 4-5 times is preferential to mixing them up once and taking their entire life bar.

Shotgun can reset opponent in the corner too... for 40%+ damage as well.

Anyways doesn't matter, you'll still disagree, but I feel at least the majority would agree with me.

because swag

Eddy Wang said:

The problem is not being able to perform 2 or 1 frame links.
The problem lies in the character design, you just don't put a super hard links on a character in order for his combos to look cool, this is a very bad idea.

If you look at SF Sonya, i've recently put out a execution klass video, @Pan1cMode clarified to me, i really had no idea so thanks to him, that Park drone combos which are relatively 1 or 2 frame links, scales damage significantly, enough to make park drones combos a road to never go to, when you can just do super simple stuff with low kamikaze it renders the usability ofo thigh links, a particularity the character offer just no worth learning.

Pretty sure there might be more characters under the same dilema, but its just a bad design, specially when other characters who doesn't require links, and have a much more relaxed window to perform juggle combos and less drop factor involved present in the same game, people will always weight it out the time to learn the character and go with the easier road.

The idea of having hard execution characters in the game its because they are strong, but such effectiveness in order to be achieved most of the time is due their super strong tools being regulated with execution.

Look at Kabal in MK9, Kabal at high level had some super insane NDC cancel pressure, juggle, restand and 50-50 pressure.

Skarlet execution barries was a 2f link to continue keep jailing people standing with her best string in order to maximize her chip and meter build which any other of her strings just didn't do the job.

When i put this video out, very few people understood the real goal behind it, some said this was old, but i wasn't sharing for being new, i was sharing because at that time, i've attained something i wanted with Skarlet, which is the consistency of doing 2 frame jail blockstrings nearly 90% of the time everyt ime i forced someone to block standing against 114 or ex dagger, so my game became far more effective from that point on, some people complained it was even fair.

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completely agree, on one hand this gives me nightmares, i remeber some of the MK9 dirty shit and after playing MKXL so long i long forgot what we had to deal with in MK9 we are so spoiled now and have no clue what broke truley is anymore. Imagine if i had my MK9 Cyrax in MKX of course updated, but those Unblockable Bombs and a few strings to force them in it mayby 212 yank would be nice. people complaine now or did with a bomb that takes almost twice the time to comeout and twice the recovery and on top of that is only a low bomb. Wish Kenshi had some jailing pressure, that would be fun. #make balanced fearful

Pan1cMode said:

Shotgun literally kills you with one wrong guess. I don't see how being able to loop mixups 4-5 times is preferential to mixing them up once and taking their entire life bar.

Shotgun can reset opponent in the corner too... for 40%+ damage as well.

Anyways doesn't matter, you'll still disagree, but I feel at least the majority would agree with me.

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Shotgun is dope and fun as fuck to play, anyone who doesn't see the potential of SG means they just don't play her write, not saying they are bad at the game just haven't mastered Jacqui yet.

oinly thing i can't do with her consistantly is Stanky Leg that damn string is still to hard for me to get every time i barley get it now if im completely honest they really should change the input of that string or add some frames to input either way thats whats hard with Shotgun

MadeOfMetal said:

Shotgun is dope and fun as fuck to play, anyone who doesn't see the potential of SG means they just don't play her write, not saying they are bad at the game just haven't mastered Jacqui yet.

oinly thing i can't do with her consistantly is Stanky Leg that damn string is still to hard for me to get every time i barley get it now if im completely honest they really should change the input of that string or add some frames to input either way thats whats hard with Shotgun

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The buffer window is now 8 frames. It's annoying but doable with practice. They're not gonna change the input, and they can't increase the buffer window any more because s4 is 8 frames.

Pan1cMode said:

The buffer window is now 8 frames. It's annoying but doable with practice. They're not gonna change the input, and they can't increase the buffer window any more because s4 is 8 frames.

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good to know i was not aware, is there some trick you use to get it, ive always tried 4 U4 and somnehow never get it, is there a tip you can give me? on block vs on hit any different?

btw i always use High tech if that matters

Daemantalo said:

I 100% understand what ZeroSymbolic is saying. It's harder to apply his argument to fighters, however, because fighters have much more depth than other games. His argument is why main a top tier that's harder to use, than main a top tier that's much easier to use. It's like saying, why would I main Swarm Queen D'Vorah, who I feel has one of the biggest execution requirements in the game, vs. Cutthroat Kano, who's top tier but anyone who's used him for an hour could wreck face without having to give second thoughts to what his moves are.

The idea is to save your own mind space in a sense. In MKXs case, people are very focused so much on what the opponent is going to do (is he going to play spacing, rush me down, disrespect my pressure and attempt to poke out, overhead or low, etc) I feel that as a medium skilled player, it would be difficult to continuously attempt to make reads on your opponent AND have to consistently execute the timing of a Wasp Grenade cancel like B1xxWGC. To some players, shit like this is second nature, and that's a good thing, but to some players, their mind would be more at ease if their character was more forgiving in a sense. Missing a run cancel is unforgiving. Doing an input like Blade Slice and being safe, is VERY forgiving.

My two cents. I hope I'm understanding correctly now that I think about it.

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THis is exactly what I'm saying.

ZeroSymbolic said:

So is just the case that Jacqui's Shotgun variation just isn't worth while?

Also in what world is Ermac difficult to use? Hit lift, free string, cancel into a projectile which yields another free string. :-/

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I think he meant spectral

I've always been more inclined to characters with simple buttons and high damage regardless of tier placement

injustice 1: Lobo, ares
mkx: slasher Jason, kotal, and the homie sektor

I think Ferra/Torr and I bonded today.

WATCHD0G said:

I've always been more inclined to characters with simple buttons and high damage regardless of tier placement

injustice 1: Lobo, ares
mkx: slasher Jason, kotal, and the homie sektor

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That's actually the reason I stopped playing slasher, he's a high damage character and super easy to use, but too simple, too easy, too one dimensional. I wonder if his other variations are the same?

ILuvFightGames said:

That's actually the reason I stopped playing slasher, he's a high damage character and super easy to use, but too simple, too easy, too one dimensional. I wonder if his other variations are the same?

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theres is a bit more to unstoppable, he has armor break setups midscreen, tick throws, boosting damage Which is what breaks armor and Xray(with punishment) and contantly needing to setup the punishment off forward 4 and B3 or whatever is the low i forget been using so many new characters. at least Unstoppable gives you something to do other than taptap...taptap..tap of slasher.

Thats why i use High Tech Jacqui, Brood Mother D'Vorah, Kenjitsu Kenshi, and Grandmaster Sub Zero now, just so i have abreak from the normal, and some new fun characters that have more to them than boring ass Mileena and her B12/Roll/F23/F4 tactics and her near identical combos.

Edit:

kinda why we need to get some Charcater buffs and adjustments soon, and quit nerfing charcaters so they have nothing left.

if we keep nerfing all the charcaters we will have nothing fun left. My Cyrax and Cyber Sub Zero are boring as hell now.

I hope we get some Buffs for the following characters soon:

Kenjitsu: imo needs a few less recovery frames after DB1 to combo easier meterless. And it couldn't hurt to change his Tele push on block to at least -9 so we can make F2 safe on block. its only fair when 90% of the cast has Safe as hell mixups specials and plus on block normals or some way to make them all safe. just for example cuz i herd some people saying before that alien had safe oh tail flip and they thought noone should have that, well news for ya most the cast does have safe oh's and lows. Jacqui has safe oh's and lows and if they are not she has DB2 which is -7 with pushback and DF2 which i think is -4 hella safe with small pushback and EX BF2 which is 0 on block. Cassie can make everything safe with EX flip and normal flip at max range not to mention Nut punch.

Alien makes everything safe with Oh flip.

Kano safe with DB1. and powerup.

Kotal makes everything safe with EX sword and a few other tools including EX pizza.

Sonya can make her shit safe with grenades and in CO makes it safe with stance.

Liu Kang makes everything safe with EX light and parry as well as Cancel pressur.

Johnny cage can make everything safe with Cancel pressure. and in SD with clone.

Sub is safe with Cryomancer.

Mileena is already safe.

Shall i go on there are many more including Tekada, goro and Predator.




But what im getting at is Kenshi Kenjitsu has zero safe specials and no Safe Oh besides B2 which pig says is useless and the move can not be canceled into specials.

Pan1cMode said:

Shotgun literally kills you with one wrong guess. I don't see how being able to loop mixups 4-5 times is preferential to mixing them up once and taking their entire life bar.

Shotgun can reset opponent in the corner too... for 40%+ damage as well.

Anyways doesn't matter, you'll still disagree, but I feel at least the majority would agree with me.

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Because in the corner, Quan also kills you with one combo and one guess? And even if you guess right I don't have to give up my turn, I get to go for another safe mixup. And another if I want to spend more meter.

Plus Quan has better chip and better meter build so he always has meter to go for these mixups.

In a game like this you should know it's not all about the damage. Momentum is just as, if not more, important. Giving up your turn can mean death so having ways to keep your turn, especially after a wrong guess, is crucial.

Whatever, just because you think people will be on your side doesn't make it right. Most people are just pretty ill-informed about post patch Summoner. Really, not all that much changed.

ILuvFightGames said:

That's actually the reason I stopped playing slasher, he's a high damage character and super easy to use, but too simple, too easy, too one dimensional. I wonder if his other variations are the same?

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and there's nothing wrong with wanting more...in fact I kind of did the same among all the characters I listed I play him the least becuase of those same reasons....not really sure about the others since I haven't dabbled I them at all