Why high execution when low execution yields the same or better results?

No.

Some of the easiest characters to use in the game [CURRENT PATCH] are as follows: Goro, (Warlock) Quan Chi, Tremor, Jason, Predator (Hunter), Kobo Jutsu Tanya, Sub Zero,(Cryomancer), (Venomous) Dvorah, (War God) Kotal Kahn, (Fisticuffs) Johnny, (Master of Souls) Ermac, (Bojutsu) Kung Jin, and (Full Auto) Jaqui.

As of right now none of those variations are dominating the META. None of these characters without a co-main / alternate character or pocket character have solidified DOMINANCE in the current version of the game. None of them are difficult to play. However mastering a character like Mystic Ermac, Ronin Takeda (Who I'll argue is easy), HQT Predator, and Marksman / Gunslinger Erron Black are much harder to use than Alien and some in that group are harder to learn than Piercing Mileena, yet there aren't a bunch of them running rampant and destroying the world SOLO. None of them are meta defining but they're easy.

MKX is a game where you need a squadron of characters. Just picking one and letting it rock isn't going to yield the best results unless its (Acidic or Tarkatan) Alien and (Piercing) Mileena. Some will say "Takeda Though". But let's be honest most of the top Takedas will at least switch variations depending on the MU at hand and Ronin plays 100% different than Shirai Ryu and Lasher.

So easy to learn does not mean (Auto Win Lol) and Dragon's Fire Liu which has some of the harder execution does well against Alien. I understand your post stems from salt but it's an illusion. Hell I know the feeling

"BRUH I GOTTA DO ALL THIS WORK, TIGHT LINKS, AND I GET HALF THE DAMAGE?"

"OH I DROPPED MY JUST FRAME LINK? WELL HE GETS A FREE 40+% KOTAL KAHN SCRUB PUNISH GG"

But that's the risk and reward you play with higher execution characters. And in SFV. There is NOTHING hard about playing Zangief execution wise. But where he at in top 8 tho?

I think for some players they are comfortable playing high level execution characters that are top tier like D'Vorah or A-List JC and can multitask with no problems that the BnB's are just as routine as waking up and eating breakfast. For some players like me, I want to main a character where execution is nothing complicated like ninjutsu and so I can focus on making the reads I need to make and don't have to worry about pulling off Run Cancels. At the end of the day, it comes down to preference and comfort level for a player.

ZeroSymbolic said:

So is just the case that Jacqui's Shotgun variation just isn't worth while?

Also in what world is Ermac difficult to use? Hit lift, free string, cancel into a projectile which yields another free string. :-/

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Jacqui Shotgun is worth using as she has great mixups and resets along with one of the best vortex potential and good neutral.
When guys are referring to ermac being high execution, I believe they are talking about Spectral which is by far Ermac's hardest variation to use and potentially his best variation when used in the right hands

Johnny Based Cage said:

I think the point he's trying to make here is that if two characters are of relatively equal (and high) tier placement, but one requires you to be Tokido with cybernetic implants and the other can be played effectively by a monkey wearing mittens (dicks out for Harambe!) then why in the blue hell even bother with the former?

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This guy gets me.

TyCarter35 said:

I think for some players they are comfortable playing high level execution characters that are top tier like D'Vorah or A-List JC and can multitask with no problems that the BnB's are just as routine as waking up and eating breakfast. For some players like me, I want to main a character where execution is nothing complicated like ninjutsu and so I can focus on making the reads I need to make and don't have to worry about pulling off Run Cancels. At the end of the day, it comes down to preference and comfort level for a player.

Jacqui Shotgun is worth using as she has great mixups and resets along with one of the best vortex potential and good neutral.
When guys are referring to ermac being high execution, I believe they are talking about Spectral which is by far Ermac's hardest variation to use and potentially his best variation when used in the right hands

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Can I get a video explaining these godlike mixups and rests in Shotgun, or a link to them. I did do some looking around in the forums, the problem is that patches change properties and possibilities, and I don't want to practice something that is super difficult when the possibility of it still existing is dubious.

ZeroSymbolic said:

Can I get a video explaining these godlike mixups and rests in Shotgun, or a link to them. I did do some looking around in the forums, the problem is that patches change properties and possibilities, and I don't want to practice something that is super difficult when the possibility of it still existing is dubious.

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Yeah, go to YouTube and type " jacqui Briggs shotgun combos". I get what you're saying but in my opinion it's all preference. Lao doesn't have great chipping. He's barely safe and ex hat in tempest and ex spin is his best options. Imo he's hard to use because to get solid damage you have to be able to perform a 2 or 3 frame link depending how you look at the frame data and you have to make Hella reads and just outplay your opponent. But when I just want to chill I pick ct kano because he doesn't have the high execution and skill that Lao takes in any variation. Sometimes its just easier to get on and work smarter and not harder.

diversity
/thread

SonicFox5000 said:

diversity
/thread

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HE HATH SPOKEN. SHUT IT DOWN.

OP has a great point. When alien is running top tier why play a character that requires execution to be good?

Props?

I enjoy high execution characters because styling on your opponent is super important in the FGC. Winning is winning. But beating somebody to the point they know you deserved the win is what playing hard characters is all about. On a side note. High execution characters aren't necessarily hard characters. I play better when I have to do more button presses and I have more fun when I am doing cancels. After you have learned to play high execution characters you can play them. I don't think I am ever aware of how hard it is to play one over the other.

I feel like you're not quite 100% on the things you're bringing up.

Scorpion doesn't have a vortex, F4 is reactable.

"Why play jacqui's non full auto variations?" Because Shotgun Jacqui has probably the truest vortex in the game and can kill in two touches if you have the execution to pull off max damage.

Kung Lao can't chip you to death anymore, this is post patch.

Cyrax Bomb traps require execution to maximize, Cyrax is one of the most execution heavy characters in the game when played correctly.

Some high execution characters can only be maximized with good execution, Johnny Cage and Liu Kang are very clear examples of that.

When I think of "why bother with high execution when low execution gives the same reward", I think alien or takeda, characters that can just throw safe strings out that have a million years to hitconfirm into huge damage. The issue is that many of the game's braindead characters are currently also top tier, mainly because of that reason. You don't have to think. The character plays itself for you.

Because they love the characters
And Jacqui is medium execution, not that hard. I mean doing combos like 50% Ravenous meterless corner is way harder than doing stanky leg consistently

Tweedy said:

Kung Lao is way harder to play than Kenshi.

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If you mean harder in terms of execution, I can agree. If you talk about the difficulty to make the character work, then I absolutely disagree, specially in the state of the game the video showed xD

Kenshi might not have difficult combos tu pull off (indeed he has some) but his difficutly lies in other aspects. Kenshi requires many things from the player to have some sort of success, that other characters don't require.

When people say easy or hard, they just tend to think about the inputs and execution, and that is a very simplistic way to look at the question.

ZeroSymbolic said:

it really really sucks to understand the gameplay mechanics at a deeper level than my opponent, but then lose anyway because they use a fighter that is stupid simple:

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not being an ass but what you implied here was you know how to play the game better than your opponent and that you where better trained and educated in the game not only by execution but knowledge of fundamentals and strategy. but when it comes to fighters the only thing that matters is the end result, keep in mind it was alose and you should wipe that way of thinking out of your thought process. you are not better than your opponent because you think you use a hard character or heavy execution or lower tier character.

ill start with no matter what character you use you can use the charcater effectivley in many ways, this can be very easy as well, you may not have to do anything harder than 2 button links and normal to special cancels. some of the best players in fighting game history have been space control/zoners. and even though zoing in this game is not the strongest together with space control it can be a strong gameplan and with that said that can be used with almost every character in the game esspecially Shotgun. and BTW shotgun is not execution heavy by no means and is very good and very viable id go as far to say Shotgun is at least A tier with favorable matchups if used properly.

What you can think you get out of using High ececution characters instead of trying to use them for win loss gain, is the knowledge and muscle memory that is gained by using the harder characters in the roster. that will always reward you in many ways. when you go to use another easier charcater you will find how much more can be applied to there simple movesets or game plans. and when you come to a new variation you can find how easy it is to pick up after mastering the harder characters beforehand.

But in fighters High Execution does not equal Top tier nor does Low Execution = Top tier. as said before there is a grey line and all are scattered.

Id say your only problem is not with your character of choice but your state of mind and how you view the state of the game. instead you should take that anger and put it to something productive and further your skills with whichever character you desire to use.

ZeroSymbolic said:

Can I get a video explaining these godlike mixups and rests in Shotgun, or a link to them. I did do some looking around in the forums, the problem is that patches change properties and possibilities, and I don't want to practice something that is super difficult when the possibility of it still existing is dubious.

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there is nothing hard with Shotgun, just time needed to master muscle memory required.

but i do get what you are frustrated with. i mean i use Kenshi and Kenjitsu has hard AF Meterless combo links with lame as fuck damage for reward, all mixups are really damn punishable and no special is safe while the rest of the cast have safe mixups(or almost all of them) or some way to make them safe and almost all of them have easy AF meterless combos and not just a couple but several starters and several ways to start said lows or overheads OS to make them safe and so on. its frustrating to learn a character 's in and outs and then have someone else take for granted what they get so easily. but like i said before, execution is not a tier placing mechanic.

Harder to use characters don't often implies execution.
And some times execution barries implies character effectiveness.

Sadly isn't something we see a lot in MKX considering some characters are just super easy to use and super effective at the same time.

Eddy Wang said:

Harder to use characters don't often implies execution.
And some times execution barries implies character effectiveness.

Sadly isn't something we see a lot in MKX considering some characters are just super easy and super effective at the same time.

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i think mostly because while it is tournament favoring at the same time the founders have to bend to the masses and lets face it, sadly some can't even perform a fatality let alone a 2 frame link's.

MadeOfMetal said:

i think mostly because while it is tournament favoring at the same time the founders have to bend to the masses and lets face it, sadly some can't even perform a fatality let alone a 2 frame link's.

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The problem is not being able to perform 2 or 1 frame links.
The problem lies in the character design, you just don't put a super hard links on a character in order for his combos to look cool, this is a very bad idea.

If you look at SF Sonya, i've recently put out a execution klass video, @Pan1cMode clarified to me, i really had no idea so thanks to him, that Park drone combos which are relatively 1 or 2 frame links, scales damage significantly, enough to make park drones combos a road to never go to, when you can just do super simple stuff with low kamikaze it renders the usability ofo thigh links, a particularity the character offer just no worth learning.

Pretty sure there might be more characters under the same dilema, but its just a bad design, specially when other characters who doesn't require links, and have a much more relaxed window to perform juggle combos and less drop factor involved present in the same game, people will always weight it out the time to learn the character and go with the easier road.

The idea of having hard execution characters in the game its because they are strong, but such effectiveness in order to be achieved most of the time is due their super strong tools being regulated with execution.

Look at Kabal in MK9, Kabal at high level had some super insane NDC cancel pressure, juggle, restand and 50-50 pressure.

Skarlet execution barries was a 2f link to continue keep jailing people standing with her best string in order to maximize her chip and meter build which any other of her strings just didn't do the job.

When i put this video out, very few people understood the real goal behind it, some said this was old, but i wasn't sharing for being new, i was sharing because at that time, i've attained something i wanted with Skarlet, which is the consistency of doing 2 frame jail blockstrings nearly 90% of the time everyt ime i forced someone to block standing against 114 or ex dagger, so my game became far more effective from that point on, some people complained it was even fair.

Pan1cMode said:

It has the best setplay of any character in the game

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Summoner Quan.

Forgot to mention that one of things that was tied to er execution was the requirement to do iaLDs and iaDs since they didn't do much damage or chip, it had massive hit advantage on hit allowing to be used as poking tools from long range, anti-airs projectiles, meter building and so on, many people couldn't do many in a row, but the requirement was just to land the first one, if you could do the first one every single time you were ready wreck some.

Well IMO you shouldn't focus too much on execution. I mean I have seen people with great execution, yet they have zero fundamentals.
Lets take a look at Tekken for instance. Lets immagine someone picking Kazuya and being able to get a PEWGF launch after a counterhit df2 8/10 times. You would say "Damn his execution is insane" but notice that he still loses against a character that does not take high execution like Bruce ( no offense to bruce players ^^). The reason for his loss is that the Kazuya player might have good execution yet doesn't understand how the game work or how to play footsies properly.
Do you understand what I am trying to explain here. Execution is nice and dandy but the main aspect of a game should never be execution alone. Its the fundamentals that counts. Being able to open up your opponent and capitalize from your opponents mistakes.

Good execution does NOT make you a good player. I was able to pull off hard combos at KOF XIII, yet I got destroyed by other people since they had a bigger understanding of the game and had way more fundamentals than me. ^^

Edit: Here is a good reason to play high execution chars. Having fun playing with them and enjoying the props you get from other players who watch you do sick stuff.

RyuKazuya said:

Well IMO you shouldn't focus too much on execution. I mean I have seen people with great execution, yet they have zero fundamentals.
Lets take a look at Tekken for instance. Lets immagine someone picking Kazuya and being able to get a PEWGF launch after a counterhit df2 8/10 times. You would say "Damn his execution is insane" but notice that he still loses against a character that does not take high execution like Bruce ( no offense to bruce players ^^). The reason for his loss is that the Kazuya player might have good execution yet doesn't understand how the game work or how to play footsies properly.
Do you understand what I am trying to explain here. Execution is nice and dandy but the main aspect of a game should never be execution alone. Its the fundamentals that counts. Being able to open up your opponent and capitalize from your opponents mistakes.

Good execution does NOT make you a good player. I was able to pull off hard combos at KOF XIII, yet I got destroyed by other people since they had a bigger understanding of the game and had way more fundamentals than me. ^^

Edit: Here is a good reason to play high execution chars. Having fun playing with them and enjoying the props you get from other players who watch you do sick stuff.

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You didn't mention that Kazuya to do good in Tekken besides fundamentals he also needs execution.

No offense to american players, but i laugh my ass off every time there is a stream and they pick a mishima to play, it just feels so basic, lol.

The kazuya player might have 10/10 execution but PEWGF its practically a 13f CH launcher he needs to maximize his damage and force people to respect his neutral far more than his other tools already does.

If a kazuya player can PEWGF you consistently as TMM does, you won't randomly be pressing buttons hoping to catch him off guard, because you knowing he is that consistent you're putting yourself at risk and subject to lose to this option because its not everyone that has brought that barrier down often.

I main Kazuya and i know it, i can't do PEWGF but if i did, not only i would have a more damaging 13F CH launcher, but my opponents would actually think twice before throwing me certain attacks i can counter with df2.

just my 2cents on this though, my opinion is, hard execution characters are fine, when the barrier gives a level of layer that brings strong options to the table, which in turn makes that character worth playing.

ZeroSymbolic said:

Can I get a video explaining these godlike mixups and rests in Shotgun, or a link to them. I did do some looking around in the forums, the problem is that patches change properties and possibilities, and I don't want to practice something that is super difficult when the possibility of it still existing is dubious.

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Midscreen:
b2~db2(ex), ji1, f2u2~du4, 11, RUN~12~db2

(males only) b33~db2(ex), ji1, f122+4, RUN~1, f2u2~du4, 4~db2

(universal) b33~db2(ex), ji1, 4u4, RUN~1, f2u2~du4, 4~db2

The_Tile said:

Summoner Quan.

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Jacqui's setplay is better.

Pan1cMode said:

Jacqui's setplay is better.

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I respectfully disagree. Jacqui potentially gets more damage but Quan gets mixups into mixups, into even more mixups depending on how much meter you wanna spend.

i kinda get what he means i think. i guess there really isn't a reason to not play alien etc due to the game's execution barriers being very subtle. and the Creep for Execution and Payoff/Risk is highly in the lower execution top tiers in this game rather than messing up a fireball cancel or something (which isn't really hard either but it's def more of a risk then doing a rekka for pressure or b12). I guess it just comes down to personal satisfaction and hype/props lmao.

TBH you have no reason to risk something on another character in this specific game when several others do things better and with minimal risk for messing up (if there is anything you could even messup)

The_Tile said:

I respectfully disagree. Jacqui potentially gets more damage but Quan gets mixups into mixups, into even more mixups depending on how much meter you wanna spend.

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So does Jacqui? Except hers do way more damage and are 100% safe without any gaps to armour through.

Jacqui undeniably has the better vortex.