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General/Other - Johnny Cage Johnny Cage post patch destiny

Saltea Mike

Saltea Mike

ROG Mike
ismael4790 said:
They are different htbs, to be honest. Takeda can apply his htbs anywhere in the screen, yes, but Sd htb is a jailing one in the corner. After a nutpunch, you have to hold it if he has meter and clone, it's basically an almost guaranteed combo.

Both should go. Every htb in the game. But if Takeda keeps them, let Cage keep his too xD
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That's basically my point exactly :)
 
LeftOverShark

LeftOverShark

Tick Throw Specialist
Okay so fill me in. I know you can back dash meter burned nut punch, but can you back dash the second hit of ex nut punch.
 
ismael4790

ismael4790

Stay focused or get Caged
LeftOverShark said:
Okay so fill me in. I know you can back dash meter burned nut punch, but can you back dash the second hit of ex nut punch.
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About non A-List nutpunch, block first hit, and backdash in the gap between the first hit and second.

About A-List, I think if regular nutpunch is meterburned immediately on block, there is no gap. But if it's done as an ex reversal move (which is the point of complaints of people) then it's exactly the same as in the other variations.
 
LeftOverShark

LeftOverShark

Tick Throw Specialist
ismael4790 said:
About non A-List nutpunch, block first hit, and backdash in the gap between the first hit and second.

About A-List, I think if regular nutpunch is meterburned immediately on block, there is no gap. But if it's done as an ex reversal move (which is the point of complaints of people) then it's exactly the same as in the other variations.
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Ah so in alist, if you use ex np on reversal the second hit can be backdashed. What about when you special cancel it off normals and strings?
 
ismael4790

ismael4790

Stay focused or get Caged
LeftOverShark said:
Ah so in alist, if you use ex np on reversal the second hit can be backdashed. What about when you special cancel it off normals and strings?
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Yes, exnutpunch is the same in the three variations.

The only difference in A-List is that you have a window after normal nutpunch to meterburn so the second hit comes out, to catch people trying to punish the regular nutpunch (for example at the end of strings, as you say). The thing is if you do the meterburn without delaying, there is no gap, but there is no problem with this, Cage still gets punished.
 
LeftOverShark

LeftOverShark

Tick Throw Specialist
ismael4790 said:
Yes, exnutpunch is the same in the three variations.

The only difference in A-List is that you have a window after normal nutpunch to meterburn so the second hit comes out, to catch people trying to punish the regular nutpunch (for example at the end of strings, as you say). The thing is if you do the meterburn without delaying, there is no gap, but there is no problem with this, Cage still gets punished.
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damn so that gap in the second hit of ex np has always been there? the more you know.
 
ismael4790

ismael4790

Stay focused or get Caged
LeftOverShark said:
damn so that gap in the second hit of ex np has always been there? the more you know.
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Yep, always there xD If you hold the two hits, you can still punish, but it's harder due to blockstun.
But if you backdash, it's free punish. People just like to complain.
 
LeftOverShark

LeftOverShark

Tick Throw Specialist
ismael4790 said:
Yep, always there xD If you hold the two hits, you can still punish, but it's harder due to blockstun.
But if you backdash, it's free punish. People just like to complain.
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I can punish it just fine with johnny. I need to practice back dashing it though.
 
YoloRoll1stHit

YoloRoll1stHit

Publicly Educated
ismael4790 said:
Yep, always there xD If you hold the two hits, you can still punish, but it's harder due to blockstun.
But if you backdash, it's free punish. People just like to complain.
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Cassie has to use a different midscreen combo which leads to less damage, sometimes Spec Ops can't even backdash because she burns her stamina all day. Spending 1 bar of stamina is a big nope for some characters you know, their complaint is reasonable
 
Saltea Mike

Saltea Mike

ROG Mike
YoloRoll1stHit said:
Cassie has to use a different midscreen combo which leads to less damage, sometimes Spec Ops can't even backdash because she burns her stamina all day. Spending 1 bar of stamina is a big nope for some characters you know, their complaint is reasonable
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We're getting offtrack here.
Then is it "reasonable" to complain about any move that needs backdashing to punish no matter the character/variation?

It's and even bigger NOPE for a-list since he uses stamina to deal damage all he can do after a backdash to punish is either 113, nutpunch or spend meter to extend.

Cassie has a string that gives her enough time to build stamina after she backdashes then it's cancelled into flip for a full punish. It's the one with telescopic baton, don't know what's the input.
 
llabslb

llabslb

R1D1_998
I actually think yolo has a point but that issue he mentioned is more specific to the cassie match up. If this were the case with most match ups then it should be adjusted. I still think the blockstun stun on nut punch should be nerfed regardless. If a move is intended to be punishable, why have all this stuff like block stun to make it safer? I find it to be a massive contradiction, having blockstun to save players from getting punished.
 
ismael4790

ismael4790

Stay focused or get Caged
YoloRoll1stHit said:
Cassie has to use a different midscreen combo which leads to less damage, sometimes Spec Ops can't even backdash because she burns her stamina all day. Spending 1 bar of stamina is a big nope for some characters you know, their complaint is reasonable
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What you said is basically false, she can do his normal combos after a backdash. After backdashing the second hit of exnutpunch the stamina recovers in time to do this (and other options of course):

Hollywood: backdash second hit of nutpunch, 212d+2+4 flipkick, run, 212, b12 nutpunch. 30%

Brawler: backdash second hit of nutpunch, same combo, into scoop, 32%.

No idea about Spec Ops, never used it. But you can do the same combo except the ender, which would probably be substituted by a missile setup or something.

EVEN if you had not full stamina when Cage does the exnutpunch, you can do backdash, launcher, regular dash d4~special to get a meterless combo as an answer for Cage reversal, for example.

You know fisticuffs Cage most of the times has f3 as only option to punish many things, and after that he can only go for f34 (shit damage), crap f3~exforceball, or f3~nutpunch (low damage and not hitconfirmable and full punish if mistimed.) or f3~exnutpunch (spend a bar to punish, not hitconfirm and full punish if mistimed)...?
That really IS struggle punishing. I wish I had strings as b12 or 212d+2+4 to safely hitconfirm into huge combos.

These complaints about exnutpunch need to stop. Maybe cancels characters have more troubles with bakcdash and punish technique, but anyway, they have more advantages. That's not a reason to nerf exnutpunch.
 
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YoloRoll1stHit

YoloRoll1stHit

Publicly Educated
ismael4790 said:
Hollywood: backdash second hit of nutpunch, 212d+2+4 flipkick run, 212, b12 nutpunch. 30%

Brawler: backdash second hit of nutpunch, same combo, into scoop, 32%.
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Optimized combo for nut punch punish is backdash, walk forward, 242, run 212, F24 flip, run B1 ender = 33-34%. This can only be done with infinite stamina because after the first run 212, she can't run again. In this situation we all assume that she starts with full stamina bar as she blocks the first hit of ex nut punch. What if Johnny plays against a very stamina dependant character?
And seriously, NRS clearly wrote than they nerfed ex nut punch to -14 on block. Read this http://community.wbgames.com/t5/Latest-Updates/MKXL-Patch-notes-3-1-2016/ba-p/1059689
but they fucked up and it's still -11. This is also one of the reasons why we complain
 
ismael4790

ismael4790

Stay focused or get Caged
YoloRoll1stHit said:
Optimized combo for nut punch punish is backdash, walk forward, 242, run 212, F24 flip, run B1 ender = 33-34%. This can only be done with infinite stamina because after the first run 212, she can't run again. In this situation we all assume that she starts with full stamina bar as she blocks the first hit of ex nut punch. What if Johnny plays against a very stamina dependant character?
And seriously, NRS clearly wrote than they nerfed ex nut punch to -14 on block. Read this http://community.wbgames.com/t5/Latest-Updates/MKXL-Patch-notes-3-1-2016/ba-p/1059689
but they fucked up and it's still -11. This is also one of the reasons why we complain
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You shouldn't always do optimized combos man, you have to adapt depending on the situation and what you are punishing, and maybe it's better to drop some damage and save stamina specially with a character that relies on it and in a matchup where you are going to need it, imo.

Whether it should be -14 or not is debatable, specially combined with the existance of the gap, that makes total sense in A-list meterburn nutpunch because there is a delay option, but does not make much sense in the regular exnutpunch.

About cancel characters and stamina dependant characters, that's a factor that plays a role in the matchup. Cancel characters have huge advantages, it's not bad that they have to think or change strategies to punish certain things that other characters that don't get so much benefited by stamina can punish with more ease.
 
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LeftOverShark

LeftOverShark

Tick Throw Specialist
ismael4790 said:
You shouldn't always do optimized combos man, you have to adapt depending on the situation and what you are punishing, and maybe it's better to drop some damage and save stamina specially with a character that relies on it and in a matchup where you are going to need it, imo.

Whether it should be -14 or not is debatable, specially combined with the existance of the gap, that makes total sense in A-list meterburn nutpunch because there is a delay option, but does not make much sense in the regular exnutpunch.

About cancel characters and stamina dependant characters, that's a factor that plays a role in the matchup. Cancel characters have huge advantages, it's not bad that they have to think or change strategies to punish certain things that other characters that don't get so much benefited by stamina can punish with more ease.
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Ismael has a point. Its a little off topic, but sometimes punishes aren't even full combo punishes. Sometimes a simple d1, d3 or d4 are considered punishes. Are they huge punishes? no, but nonetheless they are punishes.
 
Saltea Mike

Saltea Mike

ROG Mike
LeftOverShark said:
Ismael has a point. Its a little off topic, but sometimes punishes aren't even full combo punishes. Sometimes a simple d1, d3 or d4 are considered punishes. Are they huge punishes? no, but nonetheless they are punishes.
Click to expand...
ismael4790 said:
You shouldn't always do optimized combos man, you have to adapt depending on the situation and what you are punishing, and maybe it's better to drop some damage and save stamina specially with a character that relies on it and in a matchup where you are going to need it, imo.

Whether it should be -14 or not is debatable, specially combined with the existance of the gap, that makes total sense in A-list meterburn nutpunch because there is a delay option, but does not make much sense in the regular exnutpunch.

About cancel characters and stamina dependant characters, that's a factor that plays a role in the matchup. Cancel characters have huge advantages, it's not bad that they have to think or change strategies to punish certain things that other characters that don't get so much benefited by stamina can punish with more ease.
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B-b-b-but muh purcents...
 
M.D.

M.D.

Spammer. Crouch walk hater.
I consider something a "punish" when given a round where the opponent spams that one move, and i always punish it to the extent of the human posibility, at the end of the round I win and not him.

Meaning that why the living fk would I d1 punish a move when I block it, if when I fail to block it I lose 40%.
How intarnations does this turn the tables and make the opponent not spam the move constantly in fear he will lose?

It's ok man, just punish with d1...
It's ok man, just use meter to destroy the clone..
It's ok man just don't press buttons.
It's ok man just don't get hit.
It's ok man just leave the controller down and watch the show, wouldn't matter anyway.
 
ismael4790

ismael4790

Stay focused or get Caged
My change suggestions for Fisticuffs. This patch is his last chance. Let's see what happens.

Fisticuffs Cage:

-B1 back to 9 f startup.
-All speedbag hits are -2 on block.
-Speedbag random whiffing issues solved. Works as a true mid. Slightly decreased pushback. Possibly gap place changed to third punch and not the second.
-Fistbump has faster activation, to at least allow him to activate it safely after some blockstrings.
-Ex fistbump move added. Does more chip, lasts longer and slightly increases damage output. Its faster on activation and allows to extend some combos ala FF Liu.
-Added a parry ala FF Liu.
-New string f321, -6 on block, special cancelable, so he has a way to safely hitconfirm into combo off f3 as the other variations. Maybe this string should only be available with fistbump active.
-Luxury buff for all Cages: Red mode activates at 12%life remaining.

@Mikemetroid , as I think you are the only one still playing the variation here xD
 
YoloRoll1stHit

YoloRoll1stHit

Publicly Educated
ismael4790 said:
-New string f321, -6 on block, special cancelable, so he has a way to safely hitconfirm into combo off f3 as the other variations.
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With all the changes above that string should be available only when fistbump is active
I mean plz don't make another character that you can play with only half of your brain
 
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