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Question - Cryomancer Is it really that bad? with a Buff thread

gibster13

A fan of fans
Hi,

Whilst I wait for a new mkx patch, I decided to mess around with a character deemed shit for a bit of fun amongst a game two-face would love. This is where I came to cryo, the dead variation of the game. I played and played and I have actually won a ton of games with him. it may be due to the lack of experience people have had, cyro isn't that bad or I am a god on earth.

Subs poke game is extremely strong with d3 and d4 being pretty safe on block especially d3. His f4 string (remember to hit confirm) is pretty good which leads to a ton of damage. He has the highest damage potential in cryo and a lot of characters struggle to keep up. Yes he has his issues (upcoming) but he does have his strengths.

Strengths
-pokes
-damage
-50/50
-damage again
-whiff punish potentail

Weakness
-No crazy shit other characters have
-honesty
-no insane pressure that carries the top tiers
-No safe or plus 50/50s that seem to be the game

He gets easily around 40% of converts or touches that other characters dream of. 48% of a wrong guess is decent and don't forget his cheeky b12 reset.

Buffs
- I wanna see him have a new nip
-Exhammer smash needs to be a lot quicker on startup perhaps 12f-15f
-f4 reach further
-iceball to link of f4 string cuz why not
-faster d2
-Air hammer to have a use
- A teleport like the one from mkvsdc YAAAASS

" i may be going over the top but why not. the character would be so fun.

IMPORTANT NOTICE
-Just because a character is displayed at a top level, doesn't mean they're bad. Look at jason. People thought he was trash,till sonic fox played him. You get me?

anything you wanna argue. go for it. the cryo threads are dead ;-;
 

STRYKIE

Are ya' ready for MK11 kids?!
Cryomancer IMO needs only one change to make it relevant.

I've been meaning to post my own thread about it, was just tied up with VSFighting preparation and other life priorities at the time. I'll have it up by the end of the week.
 

DDutchguy

Stand 4'ing airplanes out of the sky
Weakness
-honesty
Honesty is an incredibly subjective term, I personally don't like it very much. It makes it sound like honest characters are morally superior to dishonest ones, like you're being judged for using a 'dishonest' character.

Mini-rant aside, Cryomancer is a 50/50 variation and gets incredible amounts of damage off of them. Sure B2 is unsafe, but Cryo still gets some of the highest 1-bar damage in the game off of them.

48% of a wrong guess is decent
Making your opponent lose nearly half their health for 1 bar off of a coin flip is really good if you ask me.

Buffs
- I wanna see him have a new nip
-Exhammer smash needs to be a lot quicker on startup perhaps 12f-15f
-f4 reach further
-iceball to link of f4 string cuz why not
-faster d2
-Air hammer to have a use
- A teleport like the one from mkvsdc YAAAASS
- New NJP, sure why not.
- Seeing as EX hammer is practically safe at this point in time, you're asking for a 12 to 15 frame nearly safe armored launcher. No thanks.
- F4 going further is okay I guess? He can play better footsies but I feel like F4 already has plenty of range. The animation doesn't really allow for it unless you're okay with phantom hitboxes.
- No point in making Iceball connect off of F4.
- Faster D2 would make for an alright buff, although standing 1 is already a great anti-air that gives you a lot of damage.
- Air hammer is pointless so yeah give it a use.
- Cryomancer needs a little help, but a teleport? What good would that do him exactly? He already has a slide for mobility and wakeups so a teleport feels redundant.

" i may be going over the top but why not. the character would be so fun.
While there's nothing wrong with having a little fun in a thread, when it comes to suggesting buffs try to keep the buffs to things that the character actually needs. Suggesting buffs just for the sake of giving a character buffs won't do much good.

Cryomancer's biggest problem is that he's not Grandmaster, simple as that.
 

gibster13

A fan of fans
Honesty is an incredibly subjective term, I personally don't like it very much. It makes it sound like honest characters are morally superior to dishonest ones, like you're being judged for using a 'dishonest' character.

Mini-rant aside, Cryomancer is a 50/50 variation and gets incredible amounts of damage off of them. Sure B2 is unsafe, but Cryo still gets some of the highest 1-bar damage in the game off of them.



Making your opponent lose nearly half their health for 1 bar off of a coin flip is really good if you ask me.



- New NJP, sure why not.
- Seeing as EX hammer is practically safe at this point in time, you're asking for a 12 to 15 frame nearly safe armored launcher. No thanks.
- F4 going further is okay I guess? He can play better footsies but I feel like F4 already has plenty of range. The animation doesn't really allow for it unless you're okay with phantom hitboxes.
- No point in making Iceball connect off of F4.
- Faster D2 would make for an alright buff, although standing 1 is already a great anti-air that gives you a lot of damage.
- Air hammer is pointless so yeah give it a use.
- Cryomancer needs a little help, but a teleport? What good would that do him exactly? He already has a slide for mobility and wakeups so a teleport feels redundant.



While there's nothing wrong with having a little fun in a thread, when it comes to suggesting buffs try to keep the buffs to things that the character actually needs. Suggesting buffs just for the sake of giving a character buffs won't do much good.

Cryomancer's biggest problem is that he's not Grandmaster, simple as that.
-The 12-15f armoured launcher would become around -15. I forgot to put it.tehe.
-Iceball to connect of the f412+4 string would be really good. lead to new combos and b12 resets.
-Telesport was there for fun cause the one in mkvsdc looked very cool
 

DDutchguy

Stand 4'ing airplanes out of the sky
-Iceball to connect of the f412+4 string would be really good. lead to new combos and b12 resets.
You said F4 so I thought you meant Iceball connecting off of just the normal. Connecting off of F421+3 would be interesting, though the meterless vortex he would get could maybe be a bit too powerful. Still sounds like an interesting change though.
 

ArmedCalf

I guess I play Necromancer now.. PSN: ArmedCalf
Just close up his some of his holes. I do like the idea of ice ball comboing off of f412+4 - I don't think that would be too strong a change especially the way he is now. The problem is that people can literally just jump out of his shit and full combo punish him. It'd be nice if he had something other than just f4 hammer to throw out in the neutral. Then again there could be, I've only been playing him the last month or so
 

Snibbor

Yarrrr Matey
Cryomancer needs a 7f d1, a 10f d2, and iceball to connect after f421+3.

He wouldn't have a meterless vortex because he has no way of launching off his low without meter unles you're in the corner, but then b33 xx iceball would have already frozen your opponent and so the freeze is used up, making it impossible to freeze again after f421+3.
 
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LaidbackOne

Scrubby nice guy
Hi,

Whilst I wait for a new mkx patch, I decided to mess around with a character deemed shit for a bit of fun amongst a game two-face would love. This is where I came to cryo, the dead variation of the game. I played and played and I have actually won a ton of games with him. it may be due to the lack of experience people have had, cyro isn't that bad or I am a god on earth.

Subs poke game is extremely strong with d3 and d4 being pretty safe on block especially d3. His f4 string (remember to hit confirm) is pretty good which leads to a ton of damage. He has the highest damage potential in cryo and a lot of characters struggle to keep up. Yes he has his issues (upcoming) but he does have his strengths.

Strengths
-pokes
-damage
-50/50
-damage again
-whiff punish potentail

Weakness
-No crazy shit other characters have
-honesty
-no insane pressure that carries the top tiers
-No safe or plus 50/50s that seem to be the game

He gets easily around 40% of converts or touches that other characters dream of. 48% of a wrong guess is decent and don't forget his cheeky b12 reset.

Buffs
- I wanna see him have a new nip
-Exhammer smash needs to be a lot quicker on startup perhaps 12f-15f
-f4 reach further
-iceball to link of f4 string cuz why not
-faster d2
-Air hammer to have a use
- A teleport like the one from mkvsdc YAAAASS

" i may be going over the top but why not. the character would be so fun.

IMPORTANT NOTICE
-Just because a character is displayed at a top level, doesn't mean they're bad. Look at jason. People thought he was trash,till sonic fox played him. You get me?

anything you wanna argue. go for it. the cryo threads are dead ;-;
Jason was trash untill he got buffed.
 

Lokheit

Noob
You were getting a lot of wins because Cryo's weaknesses aren't shown against unexperienced players, meaning you can yolo rush them to death and look like you're a destroyer of worlds (I really know that feeling, then reality comes to slap you in the face). Against someone that knows what's going on? Not by a long shot. In fact Cryo is a punish character, not an offensive one so going face in on offense means death.

I've posted this a thousand times but a good start to fix him would be to give him his F122 string WITHOUT the first hit (on previous patches characters were given strings as recycled pieces of other existing strings, so it's completly doable). It never made sense to have sword strings starting with a close (VERY close) range (and also slow) hit, making them ultra slow and therefor not good to play footsies (throwing the regular 31 frames hammer around is faster IIRC, that's how slow F12 sword hit is if used for footsies). It's like if Cryo was designed before variations existed and his sword strings were designed with the klone in mind like MK9 "22" string with the first hit being a punch because the klone would protect you during the whiff... but at least "22" was much faster.

Then something like making the air hammer usable. I would remove the armor breaking property and give it a new role like a ground pound or something similar (again in the line of making opponents respect your options and force mistakes as this is a punish character without almost anything to create those punish opportunities), on its current state it's of no use for Cryo's gameplan and NJP, NJK and even empty jump are all superior options in the corner that is the only place where you can think it could have a small low rewarding use. A variation exclusive move (for this or any variation in the game) should bring something to the gameplan and air hammer is a big missed opportunity to make Cryo way more interesting.

He doesn't need a lot of stuff, just basic quality of life things and he will leave the bottom section of the tier lists, but he needs them as he's eaten alive by anyone with any degree of good neutral game and good pressure (and both of them at a high level make him implode).

Seriously, the F122 second hit as first hit would be perfect, it would keep opponents check, you could option select it on whiff and if you can't hit confirm it still grants a 50/50 opportunity. That sword hit isn't the fastest thing in the world (16 frames if the first close range hit is removed) but decent enough to make opponents respect it.
 
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AGRxShiroKuma

The White Bear
Give me an NJP like erron blacks outlaw variation and make the air hammer useful in some way and I'm happy. Cryo will never be up there with grandmaster obviously but cryo rewards you if you are good and making reads and mixing people up. I struggle with finishing people off with cryo sometimes but hey...he's not unbreakable.
 

Temp

Salmon. Otters. The Bringer.
All he needs is 9 startup frames on F+1,2,2 and 21 startup frames on regular hammer. That's really it. Reduced start up on D+2 would be nice, but frankly, EVERY character needs reduced startup on D+2. That should be a universal buff.

And I'm going to have to say "no" on the teleport. His neutral is fine without it (plus, subzero turning into ice and shattering doesn't make sense and should logically kill him). I still don't buy this rhetoric that he's a punish character. He's got great whiff punishes, yes, but he also has great mix-ups with decent pressure on F+1,2,2 AND he has armor setups that let him keep his turn. Stack a fantastic D+4 on top of all that.

I also think the extended NJP range is overkill. I don't think people realize just how strong extended-range NJP's are in this game. You would need to nerf his damage to even justify it.
 

Braindead

I want Kronika to step on my face
Cryomancer IMO needs only one change to make it relevant.

I've been meaning to post my own thread about it, was just tied up with VSFighting preparation and other life priorities at the time. I'll have it up by the end of the week.
Just because you got lucky with one buff prediction doesn't make you an expert on this char OK?

Lol I'm kidding, did you get to posting that thread yet?
 

STRYKIE

Are ya' ready for MK11 kids?!
Just because you got lucky with one buff prediction doesn't make you an expert on this char OK?

Lol I'm kidding, did you get to posting that thread yet?
Good question actually. I finished archiving it on my laptop but I didn't actually post the thread cause of the Chinese whispers about the patch. I'll post it when I get home later today.
 

Braindead

I want Kronika to step on my face
Good question actually. I finished archiving it on my laptop but I didn't actually post the thread cause of the Chinese whispers about the patch. I'll post it when I get home later today.
Tag me in that shit when you post it.
 
All he needs is 9 startup frames on F+1,2,2 and 21 startup frames on regular hammer. That's really it. Reduced start up on D+2 would be nice, but frankly, EVERY character needs reduced startup on D+2. That should be a universal buff.

And I'm going to have to say "no" on the teleport. His neutral is fine without it (plus, subzero turning into ice and shattering doesn't make sense and should logically kill him). I still don't buy this rhetoric that he's a punish character. He's got great whiff punishes, yes, but he also has great mix-ups with decent pressure on F+1,2,2 AND he has armor setups that let him keep his turn. Stack a fantastic D+4 on top of all that.

I also think the extended NJP range is overkill. I don't think people realize just how strong extended-range NJP's are in this game. You would need to nerf his damage to even justify it.
I don't see how it's overkill. Ferra/Torr gets bigger damage than Cryo and has the farthest reaching NJP in the game. Just a little sword like scorpion's ninjutsu variation.
 

Tanno

The Fantasy is the Reality of the Mind
Cryo's pokes are his strength? Kotal Khan would laugh at that.

Cryo isn't like GM and Unbreakable. He's the offensive guy, therefore he doesn't have the Ice Klone in his variation to protect him. He has his Ice Sword and Ice Hammer to counterattack his opponents.

What the other variations lack compared with Cryo are these:

D2: Upward Ice Sword, which has an advantage in AA games.
F42T: Cold Blooded, which is a unique grab combo that can connect with the iceball and the hammer. It also serves as the second B12, meaning the temporary stun move.
F112: Ice Sword Uppercuts, which serve as the 2nd 242. This one is slightly powerful than the 242, I think.

The most useless move is the Air Ice Hammer. If they gave it the EX move just like the grounded EX Ice Hammer, he would be truly an offensive guy.

He doesn't need buffs. He only needs some tweaks. Unbreakable NEEDS the buffs and tweaks to be completed as the defensive guy. Grandmaster is just the balanced type.
 

crosshair271

Sub-Xerox
I really wish he had Ice Hammer Run Cancel and variation specific string adjustments. NJP ice sword, 111 overhead last hit, 114 cancelable and no belly flop, more sword strings like Ninjutsu. I'd gladly trade some damage potential for these and it would finally make him the offensive variation.