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Discussion NRS Patching - Genuine Balance or Mere Tier Shifting?

MK_Al

Noob
I agree with the first point, but kind of disagree with the second. Granted that I think every blockadvantage bigger than ~12f is absolutely crazy and shouldn't exist in the first place, i think that every tool needs to be analyzed in the context of that character.
However, the problem with the patches is that NRS sometimes seems to lack the proper sensitiveness. Instead of implementing 3-5 nerfs on alien I would start with making the long ranged pokes (or one of them) not cancelable and see what happens. I assume this would be very easy to implement, and maybe that's all he needs.
 

STB Shujinkydink

Burning down in flames for kicks
On the subject of transfering tools: cyrax, Takeda, Alien, Quan-chi, and more all have hard to blockables while they took away Cyber Sub's completely. Smh
To be fair, Quan does have to use meter to get his. I think that's balanced. Isn't CSZ ex low bomb a HTB?

Anyway good post. I think they did a good job balancing Quan chi. He's still solid without being broken. Again the only change is give him a larger aerial hitbox on his sky drop. I try not to talk too much about specific changes to other characters as I don't play them. But I do believe Alien, Takeda, Sonya and Kano could use some adjustments. But I'll leave the specifics to the pros
 

CrazyFingers

The Power of Lame Compels You
It would be awesome if we can stop referring to low tier or bottom tier characters as "shit", "garbage", "useless", or "trash". Such harsh words for characters that are a bit over exaggerated on how "awful" they are. This is how characters end up getting unnecessarily steroid buffed and then we deal with reoccurring problems like Mileena, Takeda, etc. etc.

Can we relax with trying to make every character into a dumb S tier character and instead focus on trying to make every character a very strong mid tier character? I rather have characters balanced to or around Kung Lao and Leatherface level, rather than having everyone be as stupid as Demo Sonya or Piercing Mileena.

It would be such wasted effort and a serious let down if the next patch introduces "new S tier characters" such as Kitana or Bo' Rai Cho that end up dominating the game and ruling until the game's very last breath because "oops, maybe they shouldn't have gotten THAT buffed..." We would all be back at square one, just with new faces to replace the old ones.

Just my two cents.
This. All this. Yes, nerfs are more important than buffs. More and more I think about the upcoming possible balance patch, the more I realize that normalization isn't "Shit on the top tier, put miracle grow on the 'garbage' characters" NRS needs to look at the problem characters FIRST. Which is why I like the idea of having two separate patches. Nerf Patch Followed by Buff Patch. Would it be more work? Probably a little bit but it would result in less stupid things coming out via buffs. Also NRS, NO MORE REKKAS.
 

hayatei

Noob
This. All this. Yes, nerfs are more important than buffs. More and more I think about the upcoming possible balance patch, the more I realize that normalization isn't "Shit on the top tier, put miracle grow on the 'garbage' characters" NRS needs to look at the problem characters FIRST. Which is why I like the idea of having two separate patches. Nerf Patch Followed by Buff Patch. Would it be more work? Probably a little bit but it would result in less stupid things coming out via buffs. Also NRS, NO MORE REKKAS.
rekkas are 100% fine
 

M2Dave

Zoning Master
I agree with the first point, but kind of disagree with the second. Granted that I think every blockadvantage bigger than ~12f is absolutely crazy and shouldn't exist in the first place, i think that every tool needs to be analyzed in the context of that character.
However, the problem with the patches is that NRS sometimes seems to lack the proper sensitiveness. Instead of implementing 3-5 nerfs on alien I would start with making the long ranged pokes (or one of them) not cancelable and see what happens. I assume this would be very easy to implement, and maybe that's all he needs.
You bring up a great point. In Street Fighter V, Nash (and Guile too) cannot cancel cr. MK, which hits farther than most low pokes in the game. If he could cancel cr. MK into a Sonic Boom, getting in and playing footsies would be extremely difficult for some characters, but by design he cannot. In Mortal Kombat X, almost everything goes. Everything is cancel-able. The distance a move covers is entirely irrelevant.

On a related note and future NRS fighting games, @YOMI REO has also mentioned on multiple occasions that tail and weapon-based attacks ought to have active hurt boxes as Dhalsim's limbs do. If you stick out a poke at the correct time, you should be able to clip the limb.
 

hkriderz

Lin Kuei Scum, yellow robot enthusiast
I completely agree to daves points. Although I will interject that Tanya's rekkas were considerably more broken than Alien's. Way better than tarkatans, but still NRS can't make fair rekkas obviously. But yeah this game has shifted tiers all around with no proper balance. Kitana and Kung Lao ( pre patch tempest) were the closest to a balanced strong mid tier I can name, but they are severely overshadowed by the safe plus mixup, long range hell that is the S tier group.

I can't say how frustrating it is to play tempest now and try to win against the Dvorah's and the shotguns. It's not fun.

Hopefully this patch, or next game, NRS can work with close attention to the top respectable players like REO, PL, etc.. Instead of whoever that dumbass was that let Alien get released. And fix this game.
 

hayatei

Noob
I completely agree to daves points. Although I will interject that Tanya's rekkas were considerably more broken than Alien's. Way better than tarkatans, but still NRS can't make fair rekkas obviously. But yeah this game has shifted tiers all around with no proper balance. Kitana and Kung Lao ( pre patch tempest) were the closest to a balanced strong mid tier I can name, but they are severely overshadowed by the safe plus mixup, long range hell that is the S tier group.

I can't say how frustrating it is to play tempest now and try to win against the Dvorah's and the shotguns. It's not fun.

Hopefully this patch, or next game, NRS can work with close attention to the top respectable players like REO, PL, etc.. Instead of whoever that dumbass was that let Alien get released. And fix this game.
alien rekkas are not a problem at all
 

ChatterBox

Searching for an alt.
One of the most important things in this thread needs to be trumpeted by our community more
I am not going to call out anyone personally or ask that someone at NRS resign because of Alien.

To be to fair to NRS, I personally believe that the majority of the top tier characters were balanced correctly.

By the way, I am fully aware that top tier characters will exist as long as fighting games exist. I am not arguing against the nature of fighting games. I am merely arguing against tier shifting.
It would be awesome if we can stop referring to low tier or bottom tier characters as "shit", "garbage", "useless", or "trash". Such harsh words for characters that are a bit over exaggerated on how "awful" they are. This is how characters end up getting unnecessarily steroid buffed and then we deal with reoccurring problems like Mileena, Takeda, etc. etc.
Just my two cents.
Is these quotes from REO and M2Dave. If we want to have a great game worthy of our community our community should treat the game and the people who make it better. I hope everyone on this site truly reads and understands these words. It's one thing to state dissatisfaction, but the vitriol, hyperbole, and insults on this forum are too much. If most of the people here acted calmly then the few outliers who don't would be ignored.

Great posts guys, keep them coming.
 
To be fair, Quan does have to use meter to get his. I think that's balanced. Isn't CSZ ex low bomb a HTB?

Anyway good post. I think they did a good job balancing Quan chi. He's still solid without being broken. Again the only change is give him a larger aerial hitbox on his sky drop. I try not to talk too much about specific changes to other characters as I don't play them. But I do believe Alien, Takeda, Sonya and Kano could use some adjustments. But I'll leave the specifics to the pros
Don't quote me on this but wasn't there a thread on how to get your HTBs meterless
 

Ze Dingo

D4->F2 = unblockable. Ice Clone = unpunishable.
I think the biggest problem with NRS games is the woeful lack of consistency.
 

Tweedy

Noob
The community is just interested in tier shifting. Otherwise they wouldn't be asking for buff for mid tier characters.

But then they'll cry about the next top 4-5.
 

M2Dave

Zoning Master
The community is just interested in tier shifting. Otherwise they wouldn't be asking for buff for mid tier characters.

But then they'll cry about the next top 4-5.
I am aware, but what most of the community thinks should be disregarded. Obviously, Alien players want Alien to be as good as he can be, Bo Rai Cho players want Bo Rai Cho to be as good as he can be, D'Vorah players want D'Vorah to be as good as she can be, etc. Tournament results and general consensus on tier lists can be taken into account, but social media websites should not dictate specific balance changes. The gameplay department at NRS are the experts. They make unbiased changes that are best for the game, not for certain characters or players.

ComboFiend's message to the Street Fighter community has more or less been "Shut up and play the game. It is not changing until after Capcom Cup no matter how hard you cry", which generally promotes an environment that contains less complaints and less buffs and nerfs threads.
 

KingHippo

Alternative-Fact Checker
Personally, I think the idea of "tier shifting" is goofy and a weird talking point because, invariably, balance patches essentially WILL do that, and I don't think I've ever played a fighter where a bit patch hasn't invariably shaken up how character matchups play out across the board. The very point of a balance patch is often to shake up who's good and who's bad, so of course you're going to see some changes across the board. I don't think that is the issue.

I also think a big problem is that talking points of players on the internet often revolve around what's annoying, but not what's actually insanely powerful and plays out in top level play. For example, Alien's f3 and b3 reaching super far are really annoying and a pain to block, but what consistently wins out is the ability to control massive amounts of screen space with u3 and d4 acid splats, which invariably cause you to lose health hit or block. Tarkatan, by comparison, also controls a massive amount of space by using various moves into Rekka, which are strong but have counters. The mixups may be annoying, but I would say that making them more unsafe or...I mean I guess not hit low or overhead (That seems dumb) would not really solve the issue that you can't move against Alien without taking a significant risk.

Mileena is the same thing, although it's highly likely that she's not as good as everyone thinks (Ironically enough, similar to Kung Lao). The issue isn't a matter of really good mixups or absolutely absurd sai projectiles that you can't move against, it's just a matter of movement being difficult because b1 is so good and forces you to have to tiptoe around it, which naturally opens up her tremendous anti air and pretty good projectiles. She can make you guess overhead and low in strings and yeah it looks annoying but when people play against Foxy, it looks like they mainly lose because they lost their composure and ate B1 instead of guessing wrong.

Takeda, yet again, looks like he relies more on the strength of his b1 staggers then actually hitting people with the b2 or sword pick up mixup. The real issue is probably more related to how good b1 and f1 do at controlling how you move vs. being able to guess high or low. The kunai being + is good, but it really only gets him another b1 or f1, so the bigger issue to me would be how much those two moves sort of force you into a specific position.

Sonya, too, controls wicked amounts of space AND It lingers, which makes getting away from her very, very difficult. Tossing a grenade up into the air and then just even trying to move in is overwhelming enough to make you sit there while she runs up and does an overhead or low. Again, I think toning down the grenade's hitbox or lingering aftereffect would do wonders to make her more in-line while keeping her very good.

Tl;DR: I do think a large part of tier discussion is stilted mainly because people largely ignore what's really good and focus too much on the "annoying" part. What's good, what is always good is not allowing the opponent to move. Kano, Johnny Cage, Ermac, etc. seem like characters that can control movement to a degree that is far more "fair" I guess than the characters above them. That's what should be aimed for.
 

DarksydeDash

You know me as RisingShieldBro online.
To be fair, Quan does have to use meter to get his. I think that's balanced. Isn't CSZ ex low bomb a HTB?

Anyway good post. I think they did a good job balancing Quan chi. He's still solid without being broken. Again the only change is give him a larger aerial hitbox on his sky drop. I try not to talk too much about specific changes to other characters as I don't play them. But I do believe Alien, Takeda, Sonya and Kano could use some adjustments. But I'll leave the specifics to the pros
No, your opponent jumps out. Also, if it costs a bar, that isn't bad and is fair tbh.
 

STRYKIE

Are ya' ready for MK11 kids?!
Imo characters that were handled properly in patches:
Kitana, Quan, Kotal, Jason, Jax, Scorpion, Cassie, Jacqui, Kung Jin, Liu Kang, Reptile, Goro, Tremor
Just for the record I don't know about this. Up until XL they crippled one of his most important strings for something other characters got far more mileage out of (quite literally tier shifting). And all he got in compensation was making Ninjutsu not do worse damage than variationless Scorpion (I'm not exaggerating about that either).
 
I have never seen a balance NRS game when comparing to other popular fighting games say TK, SF, and KOF. The balance of top tier to everyone else is a lot closer than NRS top tier to everyone else.

Ofcourse, NRS is smart..... They want the DLC characters to be broken so people would buy them
 

Dankster Morgan

It is better this way
Just for the record I don't know about this. Up until XL they crippled one of his most important strings for something other characters got far more mileage out of (quite literally tier shifting). And all he got in compensation was making Ninjutsu not do worse damage than variationless Scorpion (I'm not exaggerating about that either).
I think Scorpion is pretty good, and the 7 frame s3, 21 being plus on block, the ninjutsu damage buffs, and hellfire being good in its current state as well. Minus Inferno, Scoprion is a really well done character imo.
 

Doctor Rektangle

Think outside the Box
3. Giving characters buffs they don't need. Whether it be a negligible buff such as Unbreakable's ability to combo off EX Slide. Or something nutty like Bane's final adjustments in the final big patch in injustice. Meter Burn Venom Uppercuts.
 

STRYKIE

Are ya' ready for MK11 kids?!
I think Scorpion is pretty good, and the 7 frame s3, 21 being plus on block, the ninjutsu damage buffs, and hellfire being good in its current state as well. Minus Inferno, Scoprion is a really well done character imo.
I agree that he's in a good place now for the most part, I'm just saying he's had his fair share of Nick Young reaction-inducing changes.