General/Other - Johnny Cage Johnny Cage post patch destiny

M.D. said:

Ah the one that's a high and gets duck full combo punished, sure.

And if you use it on reaction to a projectile, it would still hit if it was minus a bazillion so that doesn't count.


P.s. BUFF IT AND MAKE IT A MID.

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It should be unsafe on block to begin with. It should never have been minus 4. lol what planet are you guys on?

M.D. said:

Ah the one that's a high and gets duck full combo punished, sure.

And if you use it on reaction to a projectile, it would still hit if it was minus a bazillion so that doesn't count.


P.s. BUFF IT AND MAKE IT A MID.

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From a Kenshi perspective (and sure other characters have the same situation) making exshadowkick a mid would be completely crazy. If it is armored, fullscreen and -4, it has to be a high. Being a mid, it would be a complete safe way to get in, where Cage shines, man. It would be unacceptable.
Kenshi vs Cage matchup, for example, is a continuous situation of reading the exshadowkick.

It's already a good move, you can do it on reaction and go through projectiles. The price we pay for it being -4 is that it's full combo punishable on neutral ducking opponents.

Dankster Morgan said:

How spoiled do you guys have to be? Most other characters couldn't dream of this? Use it on reaction to a projectile, not just throw it out. I'm sorry that you might have to make a read.

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Its good but its more of an annoyance than anything, you spend a bar get 12% or whatever it is, maybe trade with their projectile. If they're near the corner yeah its great. Otherwise its just a nuisance.

Its a good tool yes, but you guys talk about it like its the answer to all Zoning.

Wigy said:

Its good but its more of an annoyance than anything, you spend a bar get 12% or whatever it is, maybe trade with their projectile. If they're near the corner yeah its great. Otherwise its just a nuisance.

Its a good tool yes, but you guys talk about it like its the answer to all Zoning.

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The move has great hit advantage, it's one of his best specials, and prevents him from having more problems vs keepaway as, for example, Jax has.

If it was a mid, it should be totally punishable on block. I personally think the move is completely fine. If the opponent makes the correct read, we are punished. If not, either we are safe on block or we get the hit advantage to get in.

ismael4790 said:

The move has great hit advantage, it's one of his best specials, and prevents him from having more problems vs keepaway as, for example, Jax has.

If it was a mid, it should be totally punishable on block. I personally think the move is completely fine. If the opponent makes the correct read, we are punished. If not, either we are safe on block or we get the hit advantage to get in.

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If they tech roll you'll get very little, remember jc needs stamina for most of his pressure in his most dominant variation

Wigy said:

If they tech roll you'll get very little, remember jc needs stamina for most of his pressure in his most dominant variation

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I have fisticuffs in mind, yeah

Anyway, A-listers tend to use forward dash to close the distance after exshadowkick hits.
I mean...we can't expect to have an armored fullscreen safe special and be pointblank no matter what happens, right? xD

The only situation where you are at disadvantage after throwing the move is if the opponent neutral ducks, and that is a read that has to be rewarded. If the move is blocked, you are completely safe, if it hits, you get damage and probably better positioning.

ismael4790 said:

I have fisticuffs in mind, yeah

Anyway, A-listers tend to use forward dash to close the distance after exshadowkick hits.
I mean...we can't expect to have an armored fullscreen safe special and be pointblank no matter what happens, right? xD

The only situation where you are at disadvantage after throwing the move is if the opponent neutral ducks, and that is a read that has to be rewarded. If the move is blocked, you are completely safe, if it hits, you get damage and probably better positioning.

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Yeah totally but better positioning=/= super counter to zoning like everyone is saying.

Some people here make me want to kms with their Cage Downplay, some even using a garbage argument of "oh he hasn't done well in majors so he should stay the way he is" like to? When you have a fellow cage player just cringing at your stupidity, you dun focked up.

But to stay on topic. Honestly I think A-List F34 should be replaced with the regular F34 from SD and Fisticuffs. A lot of people don't realize how good this string is in SD and Fisticuffs. A lot of people attempt to punish the F3 but get hit by the 4 lol and you're at advantage afterwards. Imo it wouldn't be that bad a loss since you can still SKRC it on block and hit so you would still get pressure or a combo.

SD just increase push back slightly so sweep whiffs and that's pretty much it

Fisticuffs EX Fist bump and new hit confirmable string off F3

I think Cage is super strong, imo just below top 5 because of Alien, Takeda, Mileena, D'vorah, and Kano but he could use some normalizations. Also EX SK is fine the way it is. No need to change it

IrishMantis said:

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Nah, man, no dramas here, we are all cool xD

Tweedy said:

So last time I checked this forum, Johnny loses to D'vorah because he can't mash D4 and win the neutral.

Today Johnny is not top tier because no Johnny player is good enough to use him at a high level.

Gotcha

Johnny might have an execution barrier, and we might not be a huge community, but that doesn't mean that F3 whiff canceling isn't super unbalanced. It's not less unbalanced than Mileena's B1 recovery, because Johnny doesn't win. That's just grasping at straws so hard, that you might as well just say that you're grasping at straws.

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Lol

Think we just gotta be careful with f3 rc nerfs cause f34 is punishable on block and he has no other advancing mids

Wigy said:

Think we just gotta be careful with f3 rc nerfs cause f34 is punishable on block and he has no other advancing mids

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I think replacing A-List's current F34 with SD and Fisticuffs might not be so bad.

A lot of people tend to get hit by the second hit of F34 in an attempt to whiff punish F3 and they get knocked down and pushed further to the corner. This can also give you the distance you need to get zoning with force balls started. *mu dependent ofc*

You would also still be able to SKRC it on block and on hit for pressure and a combo respectively. I think it wouldn't be so bad.

I think taking out the f3(4) cancel and replacing the alist f34 with the sd and fisticuff f34 would actually be a buff lol. Cages would no longer get whiff punished after whiffing a f3. Also cage would get more utility from f3 when he doesnt have stamina.

The only downside would be that cages would have to wreck their hands by learning to do f3 skrc, which will actually benefit them because it's more plus on block.

As a cage player I'd definitely be down for that "nerf"

coconutshrimp said:

I think replacing A-List's current F34 with SD and Fisticuffs might not be so bad.

A lot of people tend to get hit by the second hit of F34 in an attempt to whiff punish F3 and they get knocked down and pushed further to the corner. This can also give you the distance you need to get zoning with force balls started. *mu dependent ofc*

You would also still be able to SKRC it on block and on hit for pressure and a combo respectively. I think it wouldn't be so bad.

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It's probably the best way to eliminate the f3 cancelable on whiff, and he still keeps all properties of cancels, yeah.

I really hope this time fisticuffs gets substantial changes that solve his problems. Speaking of f3, he needs something to make it a threat in this variation, and as some of us have been stating, the ex fistbump or a new string to hitconfim into nutpunch would help him to do it.

jaylee777 said:

I think taking out the f3(4) cancel and replacing the alist f34 with the sd and fisticuff f34 would actually be a buff lol. Cages would no longer get whiff punished after whiffing a f3. Also cage would get more utility from f3 when he doesnt have stamina.

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That's true too XD Let's see what happens, but f3 cancelable on whiff should go in a way the variation is not destroyed.

jaylee777 said:

I think taking out the f3(4) cancel and replacing the alist f34 with the sd and fisticuff f34 would actually be a buff lol. Cages would no longer get whiff punished after whiffing a f3. Also cage would get more utility from f3 when he doesnt have stamina.

The only downside would be that cages would have to wreck their hands by learning to do f3 skrc, which will actually benefit them because it's more plus on block.

As a cage player I'd definitely be down for that "nerf"

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Lmaooo

But you can get whiff punished for it since it's no Mileena B12, whiffing either part of the string will be certain death, or at least the F3 part. Punishing on whiff will require a bit more, but on the flip side it won't punish the opponent nearly as hard if they mess up their whiff punish attempt.

I'll eat 7% any day over 30% lol

Although I don't think I can justify less usage of stamina. I think I would just reduce the stamina regen on this variation to a little bit faster than pre patch breaker stamina regen.

coconutshrimp said:

Lmaooo

But you can get whiff punished for it since it's no Mileena B12, whiffing either part of the string will be certain death, or at least the F3 part. Punishing on whiff will require a bit more, but on the flip side it won't punish the opponent nearly as hard if they mess up their whiff punish attempt.

I'll eat 7% any day over 30% lol

Although I don't think I can justify less usage of stamina. I think I would just reduce the stamina regen on this variation to a little bit faster than pre patch breaker stamina regen.

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Its much harder to whiff punish the f3 part of the sd and fisti f34 than it is to whiff punish the alist f3(4) cancel. And if you allow the 4 in the sd/fisti f34 to whiff you deserve to be full combo punished every time imo.

jaylee777 said:

Its much harder to whiff punish the f3 part of the sd and fisti f34 than it is to whiff punish the alist f3(4) cancel. And if you allow the 4 in the sd/fisti f34 to whiff you deserve to be full combo punished every time imo.

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Ofc you deserve full combo punishment every time you whiff the 4, I actually have been punished for it a couple times, but I should've been punished a fair bit more than I have been lol. And you are technically right that the F3 in F34 is harder to punish than A-list. The thing is though this string in any part can be whiff punished, like I said this is definitely not Mileena's B12 and I would never want it to be such, but you can most certainly whiff punish each part of the string, is harder to do but equally as rewarding.

I think this is he best way to eliminate hurr durr whiff cancel on F3 without over doing it. What other way can you really fairly Nerf whiff cancel?

coconutshrimp said:

Ofc you deserve full combo punishment every time you whiff the 4, I actually have been punished for it a couple times, but I should've been punished a fair bit more than I have been lol. And you are technically right that the F3 in F34 is harder to punish than A-list. The thing is though this string in any part can be whiff punished, like I said this is definitely not Mileena's B12 and I would never want it to be such, but you can most certainly whiff punish each part of the string, is harder to do but equally as rewarding.

I think this is he best way to eliminate hurr durr whiff cancel on F3 without over doing it. What other way can you really fairly Nerf whiff cancel?

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Just add more charge frames to f3(4) on whiff

F34 RC shouldn't be a thing on whiff, we can all play neutral without it and although I've done a video demonstrating how to whiff punish and also whiff punish it consistently myself, I think it's best to end the tears by simply nerfing it. EX Shadow kick should become -9 on block and nut punch should have reduced block stun. Anything else?

llabslb said:

F34 RC shouldn't be a thing on whiff, we can all play neutral without it and although I've done a video demonstrating how to whiff punish and also whiff punish it consistently myself, I think it's best to end the tears by simply nerfing it. EX Shadow kick should become -9 on block and nut punch should have reduced block stun. Anything else?

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Ex kick is completely fine. Neutral duck and punish it. The move would suck being punishable on whiff and that negative on block.

Ex nutpunch is punishable. And for people having trouble with it, backdash after blocking the first hit and full punish.

Cage doesn't need nerfs to universal tools.
At this point only things needed are A-List specific tools toned down (carefully), stunt double htb removed without destroying the variation, and fisticuffs buffs.

If I remember correctly NRS made Alist MB nut punch -14, if Cage quickly MB it there is no gap. If he does ex it's still -11. That's a good way to adjust him

jaylee777 said:

These are my ideal balance changes

Universal:
Improve hitbox of f4 to make it a reliable antiair

A list:
Make f3(4) cancel have to charge for a couple more frames (not a lot) on whiff only.

Stunt Double:
Make the first hit of ex mimic uppercut push cage back slightly more on block. (This would cause an attempted sweep afterwards to whiff)

Fisticuffs:
Give him a new string after f3 that can be hit confirmed into nutpunch. (Like his f32 from MK9) Make it like -5 or -6 on block.

Give him Ex fistbuff which has a faster startup. (Makes s4-exbuff and 114-exbuff plus on block. 113-exbuff can combo into f3 on hit, but 113-exbuff is minus on block.)

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This is pretty much perfect.

ismael4790 said:

Ex kick is completely fine. Neutral duck and punish it. The move would suck being punishable on whiff and that negative on block.

Ex nutpunch is punishable. And for people having trouble with it, backdash after blocking the first hit and full punish.

Cage doesn't need nerfs to universal tools.
At this point only things needed are A-List specific tools toned down (carefully), stunt double htb removed without destroying the variation, and fisticuffs buffs.

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YoloRoll1stHit said:

If I remember correctly NRS made Alist MB nut punch -14, if Cage quickly MB it there is no gap. If he does ex it's still -11. That's a good way to adjust him

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Hate people crying over ex nutpunch being unpunishable. It's fully punishable and everyone else thinking otherwise ... I disagree with them. Like you said - backdash - punish.

When it comes to the SD's HTB - I think it's disputable. Look at other characters having HTB ... for example Takeda. He has a HTB midscreen AND in the corner. He has no requirement in shape of "stunt doubles" and can do it basically anytime when he has a meter bar. SD needs to have the opponent in the corner, need at least one shadow and a meter bar. I think the HTB on SD is just not that big of a deal.

For example IrishMantis hasn't used the HTB against Foxy ONCE and he won with him.

Just my point of view.

llabslb said:

F34 RC shouldn't be a thing on whiff, we can all play neutral without it and although I've done a video demonstrating how to whiff punish and also whiff punish it consistently myself, I think it's best to end the tears by simply nerfing it. EX Shadow kick should become -9 on block and nut punch should have reduced block stun. Anything else?

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I don't agree with these. If people are still complaining about punishing nut punch, then they need to lab it and work on punishing it. Also, why make EX SK -9? You are spending a bar to be safe and in the neutral that's an option your opponent should be aware of. Im not saying its easy to duck on reaction, but from that range you should keep in mind that the cage player could do that.

[ROG] Mike said:

This is pretty much perfect.





Hate people crying over ex nutpunch being unpunishable. It's fully punishable and everyone else thinking otherwise ... I disagree with them. Like you said - backdash - punish.

When it comes to the SD's HTB - I think it's disputable. Look at other characters having HTB ... for example Takeda. He has a HTB midscreen AND in the corner. He has no requirement in shape of "stunt doubles" and can do it basically anytime when he has a meter bar. SD needs to have the opponent in the corner, need at least one shadow and a meter bar. I think the HTB on SD is just not that big of a deal.

For example IrishMantis hasn't used the HTB against Foxy ONCE and he won with him.

Just my point of view.

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They are different htbs, to be honest. Takeda can apply his htbs anywhere in the screen, yes, but Sd htb is a jailing one in the corner. After a nutpunch, you have to hold it if he has meter and clone, it's basically an almost guaranteed combo.

Both should go. Every htb in the game. But if Takeda keeps them, let Cage keep his too xD