Discussion The Top 5/Bottom 5 Variations are...

Airvidal said:

Know what, Imma test this further and I'll get back to you cause I still have questions and I see so many posibilities and don't wanna drag this convo any longer without testing what you just said. TTYL.

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no doubt, i respect that, props to you for taking the time out!

One last post for me tonight lol.

I hate how a lot of people on TYM, will either hear something, see something in a tournament, or whatever, and it somehow becomes super common knowledge for almost no reason.

An example of this is "Acidic is Mileena's only losing MU".

That's probably not true, at all. Same with Demo only losing to Piercing. She probably doesn't lose to Piercing lol.

Acidic being the best is another. Acidic is the Tempest Lao of this version, like God Confirm said. Honestly Tarkatan may be better, when the game is developed further. What makes Acidic so much better than Tarkatan? The acid controlling space? Honestly, I think Sonic has made us all think that Acidic is a lot better than it really is. Like, Acidic does not beat Tarkatan, but if you watch that match when Sonic plays it, it looks like Acidic dumps all over Tarkatan. I don't even play Acidic so don't give me "yeah we know Tweedy, you downplay Alien". I have more biased towards Ronin Takeda than Acidic or Konjurer Alien.

When I told people that Alien is only plus 1 in the corner after acid blood, I got replies like "but bro sometimes we stagger at -5 and it works", lol.

+1 after a corner combo with some DoT, versus a hard knockdown, is about the same to me. I'm comparing the two variations so there can be no "bruh lol downplay alien you do".

The rekkas blow on block versus a chunk of the cast, however, it's not like you're gaining anything super safe and cheap by switching to Acidic. You can do all of the D4 xx 50/50 special shit that Sonic does with Tarkatan.

Here's where possible Alien downplay comes in.

I think people know that Tarkatan is not better than Demolition Sonya and possibly Cutthroat Kano, so to hold on to the fact that Dragon's main, the guest character, the ugly motherfucker Alien, is not top 1, they gotta keep putting Lord Acidic up there. I'm not saying Acidic or Tarkatan are not top 1. I'm just saying that I think TYM wants Alien to be, whether he is or not.

Also, you didn't hear it from me, but you can make EX rekkas safer on block than normal rekkas, making it almost a safe wake up. You also gain EX spin in Tarkatan which is amazing.

I'll explain later if someone else doesn't already have it figured out. I really gotta go to bed. TYM chatter is addicting.

Edit: Oh and standing 2 in Tarkatan is an amazing footsies tool. Absolutely amazing. Cancel it by itself into rekkas. If you whiff, nothing comes out but the S2, and it recovers in like 15 frames or less.

TheGangstaFace said:

You forgot to mention no wakeup

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How did I forgot that, lol.

Fixed.
Thx

lookgirlitsteejay said:

I get where you are coming from, but mileena still controls THE ENTIRE screen . Like, when u start off a match, mileena walks back, low sai neutral control, straight sai neutral control, instant air sai control, teleport,roll for run ins ect. Tell me how someone is NOT supposed to make a mistake against her? You can't walk, you can't jump because

A.roll anti air

B. B1,B1,B1 Anti air full combo punish

C. Telekick anti air combo punish.


You can't just walk in she has her sais to control her space and her B1 is great. Whiff punishing B12 is virtually inhuman in some instances. It's true that she doesnt have "50/50's" that are safe like the others, and can make u dead fast, but mileena hits like a tank as well for no resources. 35%meterless into a restand is pretty good if u ask me. Tarkatan is very unsafe on rekkas and people let him get away with murder MOST of the time. There are ways around that specific variation, Its definitely dumb, but not as dumb as Acidic. I think mileena plays a very very different way than the other top tiers, but that doesn't make her any less dumb. She can beat them all pretty handily imo besides Acidic. But that's just my take on it ya know?

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Its called damage control, why would you risk losing 30 by jumping in, when you can take 3% chip walking in?
Whiff punishing B12 is totally possible, dunno why people say it isnt.

The way the game engine works allows Tarkatan to get away wth murder, if we could do reversal normals as well as specials, -15 staggers wouldnt be a thing.

Airvidal said:

No good anti airs? Who are you playing that won't anti air you? He has 2 anti airs that are amazing. My homie KB anti airs me EVERY single time...quite annoying.

And I hope you're not talking about not getting anti aired as Mileena cause she's like sub or Alien, you won't anti air them unless you spend meter.

Shit knockdown when his slide ender is a hard knockdown? Hard to blockables, space control with the bombs. People that play Cyber Sub or Cyrax just don't know how to use bombs for space control or don't wanna think, then they say he they suck.

These are set up characters for a reason.

No frames? S1 a 7 frame punisher that more than anything anti air so perfectly at such angle and speed.
Not happy with that anti air, cool, 11 frame S4.
7 frame d1 poke, second fastest in game.
18 frame OH vs a 15 frame low, 50/50s.
8 frame d3 that hits low and is only -3 on block.
8 frame d2.
Ridiculous NJP hitbox
Dive kick is so fast and hits OH when his slide that obviously hits low is so fast as well. Character is balls? You gotta be kidding me man.

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I didnt say no frames as in he has no speed, I mean no frames as in he gets no real advantage, yeah he may have some quickish moves, but thats linked to another problem of his, he gets low profiled way too easy, whats the speed worth when theres minimal good application because people can literally treat him like raiden and mash lowpokes all game.

Slide is a hard knockdown, but a not a good knockdown, he doesnt get anything from it.
His NJP is ok, but no character is winning because they can NJP in this game, theyre kinda irrelevant.

The bomb hitbox is so whack they dont control much at all, and even then the damage he gets is so minimal why would you even care? You can literally just run in neutral ducking/mashing low pokes and hes gna have a hard time stopping you.

CrazyFingers said:

On this subject, I point you to Slasher Jason. He does almost the exact same things you listed AND has 50/50's in the corner. His safety isn't AS high as mileena's but it's close. Machete Toss controls full screen to a shocking degree and it recovers almost instantly. Everything the character does anti-airs (B3, B1, 1, S1, Choke) the hit box on B1 is Mileena B1 levele of good. Jumping? Don't do it on this guy. OH! And meterless damage! Slasher Jason has 32% off of anti-airs everytime. Yet we don't see people screaming "Slasher OP! Top 5!" Why? Well the publicity just isn't there but he has similar, if not almost identical tools (Their main footsies button is the same damn button for god sake's)

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Slasher is fucking dumb. And if he wants to spend a bar. 39-42%? I believe? Mid screen. Ggs

youthinkyoubadyouaintbad said:

i see your slasher and raise you unstoppable

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I honestly think slasher is better lol

A F0xy Grampa said:

Its called damage control, why would you risk losing 30 by jumping in, when you can take 3% chip walking in?
Whiff punishing B12 is totally possible, dunno why people say it isnt.

The way the game engine works allows Tarkatan to get away wth murder, if we could do reversal normals as well as specials, -15 staggers wouldnt be a thing.

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I honestly don't think I've seen b12 whiff punished. I also play kotal (9f advancing mid) and I don't recall ever whiff punishing it. Also off topic but fun fact. Did you know mileenas b12 can actually beat out ninjutsus f2 because of the range and no hurtbox on the second hit of b12? Learned that a few days ago

I feel disrespected that I was tagged during the Cyber Sub-Zero part of the discussion. Has my voice not been heard? Heard??? The character is garbage, the 50/50's weren't good since March nerfs, and there's literally no reason to use the character over 90% of the roster.

Even low tiers like Kenshi have much more to offer than CSZ ever could dream of.

Unsafe, low damage, horrendous pokes, useless mixups, not viable stankin ass.

Garbage character.

TheGangstaFace said:

I honestly don't think I've seen b12 whiff punished. I also play kotal (9f advancing mid) and I don't recall ever whiff punishing it. Also off topic but fun fact. Did you know mileenas b12 can actually beat out ninjutsus f2 because of the range and no hurtbox on the second hit of b12? Learned that a few days ago

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It doesn't 'beat out' f2. Unless Ninjutsu doesnt have the frames to get his move out first, thats not how it works. As long as you're in range and have the frames/timing you'll get it.
As long as you're moving foward you can whiff punish B12, if I can whiff punish her B12 with Laos F2 or B3, there's no reason a plethora of other characters can't. Thats on you.

Acidic Acidic Acidic.

Random question, I thought when Cyber Sub went for a bomb setup in the corner he could also d3 to beat an opponent trying to poke. Is that mistaken?

A F0xy Grampa said:

Its called damage control, why would you risk losing 30 by jumping in, when you can take 3% chip walking in?
Whiff punishing B12 is totally possible, dunno why people say it isnt.

The way the game engine works allows Tarkatan to get away wth murder, if we could do reversal normals as well as specials, -15 staggers wouldnt be a thing.

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Why would I risk jumping ? Cause I'm not gonna win the match walking you down. B12 is still a threat even if I walk you near or into the corner. It's not just the sais. You're a smart player I'm sure you know just taking the chip and don't ever jump is a bad way to approach it. At that point mileena completely has you at her mercy I'm which u basically have already loss being afraid to force her into her own mistake. You can punish her for sai if u jump over and punish but that's always a risk. She capitalizes on people's mistakes by forcing you to make one at some point because her space control is that dominant that's all I mean

lookgirlitsteejay said:

Why would I risk jumping ? Cause I'm not gonna win the match walking you down. B12 is still a threat even if I walk you near or into the corner. It's not just the sais. You're a smart player I'm sure you know just taking the chip and don't ever jump is a bad way to approach it. At that point mileena completely has you at her mercy I'm which u basically have already loss being afraid to force her into her own mistake. You can punish her for sai if u jump over and punish but that's always a risk. She capitalizes on people's mistakes by forcing you to make one at some point because her space control is that dominant that's all I mean

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The number 1 killer against Mileena is jumping, so no, jumping isnt really a good idea, thats what she wants you to do, its like people saying 'just jump Kenshis shoulder' in MK9. Thats what he wants.

You lose minimum 30% for jumping, thats equal to blocking 20 sai or 20 B12s, so no, you dont HAVE to jump.
That opens up the option for her to grab you, but again, you need to be grabbed 3 times before you equal the anti air damage.

A F0xy Grampa said:

I didnt say no frames as in he has no speed, I mean no frames as in he gets no real advantage, yeah he may have some quickish moves, but thats linked to another problem of his, he gets low profiled way too easy, whats the speed worth when theres minimal good application because people can literally treat him like raiden and mash lowpokes all game.

Slide is a hard knockdown, but a not a good knockdown, he doesnt get anything from it.
His NJP is ok, but no character is winning because they can NJP in this game, theyre kinda irrelevant.

The bomb hitbox is so whack they dont control much at all, and even then the damage he gets is so minimal why would you even care? You can literally just run in neutral ducking/mashing low pokes and hes gna have a hard time stopping you.

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And where do you leave his dive kick in your run-in neutral duck strategy?
About the bombs, he gets to have 2 bombs out and the third is already coming out when the first bomb explode. You have your ice ball or EX, all this while still watching out for the dive kick. There are so many different set ups you can think of. But you rarely see a cyber sub doing them.

About his moves not being plus enough, I get the feeling that people think that they're not plus enough just cause they used to be ridiculously +21 on a simple S1. +21 to +12 is not a nerf necessarily but a fix. He had guaranteed vortexes...

A F0xy Grampa said:

The number 1 killer against Mileena is jumping, so no, jumping isnt really a good idea, thats what she wants you to do, its like people saying 'just jump Kenshis shoulder' in MK9. Thats what he wants.

You lose minimum 30% for jumping, thats equal to blocking 20 sai or 20 B12s, so no, you dont HAVE to jump.
That opens up the option for her to grab you, but again, you need to be grabbed 3 times before you equal the anti air damage.

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Either way she is in control of you and that's what makes her just as good as the other top guys you mentioned imo. She plays mkx in her own way and she can 50/50 u if she wants although unsafe. Bottom line is we both have different opinions and there is nothing wrong with that. I think she's in the top 5, you do not. Nothing wrong with us having different viewpoints I do respect your opinion on the matter though

Airvidal said:

And where do you leave his dive kick in your run-in neutral duck strategy?
About the bombs, he gets to have 2 bombs out and the third is already coming out when the first bomb explode. You have your ice ball or EX, all this while still watching out for the dive kick. There are so many different set ups you can think of. But you rarely see a cyber sub doing them.

About his moves not being plus enough, I get the feeling that people think that they're not plus enough just cause they used to be ridiculously +21 on a simple S1. +21 to +12 is not a nerf necessarily but a fix. He had guaranteed vortexes...

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You know his divekick is unsafe and doesnt give him anything on hit? This is another problem with him not having the frames. So its a 7% divekick that if you block once he gets messed up for, and if you get hit by it, so what? Even then it doesnt leave him in a good range to do anything. (again, doesnt have the frames to do anything)

If you're giving him enough time to get 3 bombs out thats on you, again.
I know the triborg match lol, I play against the best players of each variation. CSZ is just bad overall. The character is so bad infact, even Madzin wont play him, and he plays blood god and sub lol

CrazyFingers said:

Not even wrong. I feel like Slasher is actually possibly top 10 but Unstoppable is undeniably top 5 for me, he has too much for me to ignore it. Love the character but damn. AND he might get buffs in the next possible patch? I'm scared.

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yeah i remember back in the old day unstoppable was definitely garbage. since the buffs tho he is super legit now. I watched Sonic's 'Fox it up' video about Jason and he mentioned unstoppable is top 5, possibly top 3. At first I was skeptical but the more I use him, the more i'm a believer. It's a great feeling to 'armor break' a wake-up X-ray. Oh, and seeing Sonic's performance against Hayatei at EVO, yeah that helps make me a believer as well.

youthinkyoubadyouaintbad said:

yeah i remember back in the old day unstoppable was definitely garbage. since the buffs tho he is super legit now. I watched Sonic's 'Fox it up' video about Jason and he mentioned unstoppable is top 5, possibly top 3. At first I was skeptical but the more I use him, the more i'm a believer. It's a great feeling to 'armor break' a wake-up X-ray. Oh, and seeing Sonic's performance against Hayatei at EVO, yeah that helps make me a believer as well.

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Yea. I'm glad AT LEAST Unstoppable is seeing some tournament time, people have to realize that Jason is a legit threat out there.

I'm curious why ppl think CSZ is so bad? I struggle against him. Good mobility, good damage and that hella annoying overhead that looks like a backdash

STB Shujinkydink said:

I'm curious why ppl think CSZ is so bad? I struggle against him. Good mobility, good damage and that hella annoying overhead that looks like a backdash

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What kind of damage is he hitting you with? Basically we think he is bad because he has no pressure, shit knockdowns and setups, no zoning, no armor launcher, bad damage, and his only pro is great mobility. It's even more frustrating because of the high execution barrier. If a character is this bad he should at least have the courtesy to be a potato lol.

And the worst part is, I can't think of any way to help him.

Nerf takeda

CSZ, realistically, is probably not as bad as people make him out to be.

He's still not very good, though. Basically to get the real tier placement of the Triborgs, you up them one tier from the TYM consensus. This site loves downplaying the bots.

Tweedy said:

CSZ, realistically, is probably not as bad as people make him out to be.

He's still not very good, though. Basically to get the real tier placement of the Triborgs, you up them one tier from the TYM consensus. This site loves downplaying the bots.

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What is the hidden gem of CSZ? He does nothing but mobility. The other robots are good. Smoke is suuper good, Sektor is pretty dope, Cyrax is ok, but the hot fix took everything CSZ was good at and took it away.