Discussion The Top 5/Bottom 5 Variations are...

A F0xy Grampa · Jul 28, 2016

lookgirlitsteejay said:
So mileena isn't top 5? you think those 5 characters are better than mileena ? What am I missing? Doesn't she beat tarkatan as well?

I just think those 5 are more 'stupid'.

In this game the mixup is king. Mileena is the queen of defence, so she stops alot of stupid.

I'm just trying not to fall into the trap before when I was winning with tempest and being told how tempest was #1, when we look back on it now, tempest had no chance of being even in the top 5.

Yeah Mileenas rediculous, and even if she fell outside the magical 'top 5' doesnt mean she's bad.
Lemme put it this way, Mileena has alot to make you uncomfortable causing you to kill yourself, other characters have alot to make you dead, fast.

Dvorah Sonya and Alien can all evaporate your life bar with no real consequence and no real work put in other than attempting a 5050, Takeda and Mieena are basically the same, you could change either out.

God Confirm · Jul 28, 2016

A F0xy Grampa said:
I just think those 5 are more 'stupid'.

In this game the mixup is king. Mileena is the queen of defence, so she stops alot of stupid.

I'm just trying not to fall into the trap before when I was winning with tempest and being told how tempest was #1, when we look back on it now, tempest had no chance of being even in the top 5.

Yeah Mileenas rediculous, and even if she fell outside the magical 'top 5' doesnt mean she's bad.
Lemme put it this way, Mileena has alot to make you uncomfortable causing you to kill yourself, other characters have alot to make you dead, fast.

Dvorah Sonya and Alien can all evaporate your life bar with no real consequence and no real work put in other than attempting a 5050, Takeda and Mieena are basically the same, you could change either out.

i entirely agree with you, I think you are right about Mileena, and whether or not Tempest was or wasn't #1 I'm not going to comment on, but will say that the verdict was definitely drawn way too early on that one. Although I think Acidic is also currently in that Tempest trap you spoke about as well. Great character but not undeniably #1.

Dankster Morgan · Jul 28, 2016

A F0xy Grampa said:
I just think those 5 are more 'stupid'.

In this game the mixup is king. Mileena is the queen of defence, so she stops alot of stupid.

I'm just trying not to fall into the trap before when I was winning with tempest and being told how tempest was #1, when we look back on it now, tempest had no chance of being even in the top 5.

Yeah Mileenas rediculous, and even if she fell outside the magical 'top 5' doesnt mean she's bad.
Lemme put it this way, Mileena has alot to make you uncomfortable causing you to kill yourself, other characters have alot to make you dead, fast.

Dvorah Sonya and Alien can all evaporate your life bar with no real consequence and no real work put in other than attempting a 5050, Takeda and Mieena are basically the same, you could change either out.

Wether I agree on Mileena doesn't matter right now, I don't play the game as much as you, I won't comment on that.

But I do agree about Tempest Lao. I may not have when you were winning with Lao, but you may be on to something with him not being top 5 after +27 hat was taken. An excellent character for sure, but I think there is a good chance that Quan, Liu Kang, Tanya, and Tremor were better for starters and possibly more.

x TeeJay o · Jul 28, 2016

A F0xy Grampa said:
I just think those 5 are more 'stupid'.

In this game the mixup is king. Mileena is the queen of defence, so she stops alot of stupid.

I'm just trying not to fall into the trap before when I was winning with tempest and being told how tempest was #1, when we look back on it now, tempest had no chance of being even in the top 5.

Yeah Mileenas rediculous, and even if she fell outside the magical 'top 5' doesnt mean she's bad.
Lemme put it this way, Mileena has alot to make you uncomfortable causing you to kill yourself, other characters have alot to make you dead, fast.

Dvorah Sonya and Alien can all evaporate your life bar with no real consequence and no real work put in other than attempting a 5050, Takeda and Mieena are basically the same, you could change either out.

I get where you are coming from, but mileena still controls THE ENTIRE screen . Like, when u start off a match, mileena walks back, low sai neutral control, straight sai neutral control, instant air sai control, teleport,roll for run ins ect. Tell me how someone is NOT supposed to make a mistake against her? You can't walk, you can't jump because

A.roll anti air

B. B1,B1,B1 Anti air full combo punish

C. Telekick anti air combo punish.

You can't just walk in she has her sais to control her space and her B1 is great. Whiff punishing B12 is virtually inhuman in some instances. It's true that she doesnt have "50/50's" that are safe like the others, and can make u dead fast, but mileena hits like a tank as well for no resources. 35%meterless into a restand is pretty good if u ask me. Tarkatan is very unsafe on rekkas and people let him get away with murder MOST of the time. There are ways around that specific variation, Its definitely dumb, but not as dumb as Acidic. I think mileena plays a very very different way than the other top tiers, but that doesn't make her any less dumb. She can beat them all pretty handily imo besides Acidic. But that's just my take on it ya know?

Airvidal · Jul 28, 2016

A F0xy Grampa said:
No mids
No frames
No damage
No real safety
No good anti air
Gaps everywhere
Mostly shit knockdowns

The only thing he's really got going for him is mobility.
You dont have respect this character at all.

No good anti airs? Who are you playing that won't anti air you? He has 2 anti airs that are amazing. My homie KB anti airs me EVERY single time...quite annoying.

And I hope you're not talking about not getting anti aired as Mileena cause she's like sub or Alien, you won't anti air them unless you spend meter.

Shit knockdown when his slide ender is a hard knockdown? Hard to blockables, space control with the bombs. People that play Cyber Sub or Cyrax just don't know how to use bombs for space control or don't wanna think, then they say he they suck.

These are set up characters for a reason.

No frames? S1 a 7 frame punisher that more than anything anti air so perfectly at such angle and speed.
Not happy with that anti air, cool, 11 frame S4.
7 frame d1 poke, second fastest in game.
18 frame OH vs a 15 frame low, 50/50s.
8 frame d3 that hits low and is only -3 on block.
8 frame d2.
Ridiculous NJP hitbox
Dive kick is so fast and hits OH when his slide that obviously hits low is so fast as well. Character is balls? You gotta be kidding me man.

God Confirm · Jul 28, 2016

Airvidal said:
Shit knockdown when his slide ender is a hard knockdown?

It's untechable, not HKD, and doesn't give you anything midscreen, and doesnt give you a set-up in the corner

Airvidal said:
Hard to blockables, space control with the bombs

He doesn't have hard to blockables. He has a 50/50, that you can poke out of anyway.

Airvidal said:
People that play Cyber Sub or Cyrax just don't know how to use bombs for space control or don't wanna think, then they say he they suck.

These are set up characters for a reason.

First you said use them for space control now you are saying they are a set-up tool, makes no sense. And as far as what his set-ups are, Cyber Subs set-ups are the easiest set-ups in the game to get out. Once again, all he really gets off his set up is a 50/50, that you can poke out of. He really is trash tier.

Also I don't know what the Cyrax talk is all about because he didn't say anything bad bout Cyrax

Airvidal · Jul 29, 2016

God Confirm said:
It's untechable, not HKD, and doesn't give you anything midscreen, and doesnt give you a set-up in the corner

He doesn't have hard to blockables. He has a 50/50, that you can poke out of anyway.

First you said use them for space control now you are saying they are a set-up tool, makes no sense. And as far as what his set-ups are, Cyber Subs set-ups are the easiest set-ups in the game to get out. Once again, all he really gets off his set up is a 50/50, that you can poke out of. He really is trash tier.

Also I don't know what the Cyrax talk is all about because he didn't say anything bad bout Cyrax

I mentioned space control and set ups cause he has both, you should be able to conclude that by yourself. I'm not contradicting myself lol

And mentioned Cyrax not cause Foxy mentioned him but because he is believed to be bad just like Cyber Sub.

You're saying he has a 50/50 that you can poke out of, well yeah, everything has a way to be beat, but having a solution doesn't mean it's any less of a read.

By the way, you do get a side switch after the slide, Reptile's dash style.

Pan1cMode · Jul 29, 2016

God Confirm said:
techable, not HKD, and doesn't give you anything midscreen, and doesnt give you a set-up in the corner

Untechable is the same as a hard knockdown.

What you mean is it's a splat knockdown.

Dankster Morgan · Jul 29, 2016

Airvidal said:
I mentioned space control and set ups cause he has both, you should be able to conclude that by yourself. I'm not contradicting myself lol

And mentioned Cyrax not cause Foxy mentioned him but because he is believed to be bad just like Cyber Sub.

You're saying he has a 50/50 that you can poke out of, well yeah, everything has a way to be beat, but having a solution doesn't mean it's any less of a read.

By the way, you do get a side switch after the slide, Reptile's dash style.

You don't understand. He can't set up anything in the corner that can't be escaped for free because his 1112 and F2 knockdowns got bodied.

Pan1cMode · Jul 29, 2016

Dankster Morgan said:
You don't understand. He can't set up anything in the corner that can't be escaped for free because his 1112 and F2 knockdowns got bodied.

What about njk? I remember that giving enough advantage but with terribly shitty damage output.

Dankster Morgan · Jul 29, 2016

Pan1cMode said:
What about njk? I remember that giving enough advantage but with terribly shitty damage output.

Iv dropped that piece of shit too long ago to remember? @SaltShaker @God Confirm do either of you guys remember?

CrazyFingers · Jul 29, 2016

lookgirlitsteejay said:
I get where you are coming from, but mileena still controls THE ENTIRE screen . Like, when u start off a match, mileena walks back, low sai neutral control, straight sai neutral control, instant air sai control, teleport,roll for run ins ect. Tell me how someone is NOT supposed to make a mistake against her? You can't walk, you can't jump because

A.roll anti air

B. B1,B1,B1 Anti air full combo punish

C. Telekick anti air combo punish.

You can't just walk in she has her sais to control her space and her B1 is great. Whiff punishing B12 is virtually inhuman in some instances. It's true that she doesnt have "50/50's" that are safe like the others, and can make u dead fast, but mileena hits like a tank as well for no resources. 35%meterless into a restand is pretty good if u ask me. Tarkatan is very unsafe on rekkas and people let him get away with murder MOST of the time. There are ways around that specific variation, Its definitely dumb, but not as dumb as Acidic. I think mileena plays a very very different way than the other top tiers, but that doesn't make her any less dumb. She can beat them all pretty handily imo

On this subject, I point you to Slasher Jason. He does almost the exact same things you listed AND has 50/50's in the corner. His safety isn't AS high as mileena's but it's close. Machete Toss controls full screen to a shocking degree and it recovers almost instantly. Everything the character does anti-airs (B3, B1, 1, S1, Choke) the hit box on B1 is Mileena B1 levele of good. Jumping? Don't do it on this guy. OH! And meterless damage! Slasher Jason has 32% off of anti-airs everytime. Yet we don't see people screaming "Slasher OP! Top 5!" Why? Well the publicity just isn't there but he has similar, if not almost identical tools (Their main footsies button is the same damn button for god sake's)

God Confirm · Jul 29, 2016

Pan1cMode said:
What about njk? I remember that giving enough advantage but with terribly shitty damage output.

Dankster Morgan said:
Iv dropped that piece of shit too long ago to remember? @SaltShaker @God Confirm do either of you guys remember?

if i recall you need to do it last frames, without launching them first, and you can get a set-up off it. But the set-up is still a 50/50 at the end of the day, with Delayed Wake-up and all that, and thats assuming you count the HTB as unblockable

Airvidal said:
And mentioned Cyrax not cause Foxy mentioned him but because he is believed to be bad just like Cyber Sub.

thats a completely different argument tho. Everyone thinks CSZ is bad, most people agree Cyrax isn't bad.

You're saying he has a 50/50 that you can poke out of, well yeah, everything has a way to be beat, but having a solution doesn't mean it's any less of a read.

really? how many 50/50's in this game require the corner, a long knockdown set-up, extremely high execution and can still be poked out of?

The answer is two. CSZ, and Hat Trick. He at least gets ~35-40% off his, like actual corner damage. CSZ gets what 30%? something terrible anyway

Airvidal said:
By the way, you do get a side switch after the slide, Reptile's dash style.

that isn't oki tho. meaning it fits the description of pretty poor knockdown

x TeeJay o · Jul 29, 2016

CrazyFingers said:
On this subject, I point you to Slasher Jason. He does almost the exact same things you listed AND has 50/50's in the corner. His safety isn't AS high as mileena's but it's close. Machete Toss controls full screen to a shocking degree and it recovers almost instantly. Everything the character does anti-airs (B3, B1, 1, S1, Choke) the hit box on B1 is Mileena B1 levele of good. Jumping? Don't do it on this guy. OH! And meterless damage! Slasher Jason has 32% off of anti-airs everytime. Yet we don't see people screaming "Slasher OP! Top 5!" Why? Well the publicity just isn't there but he has similar, if not almost identical tools (Their main footsies button is the same damn button for god sake's)

You have a point, but it just may depend on MU chart probably at the end of the day. Hers is probably quite dominant compared to his. She also has the benefit of having a female hitbox / low profiling d3 that beats a lot of mids

CrazyFingers · Jul 29, 2016

lookgirlitsteejay said:
You have a point, but it just may depend on MU chart probably at the end of the day. Hers is probably quite dominant compared to his. She also has the benefit of having a female hitbox / low profiling d3 that beats a lot of mids

You're probably right but at the same time the MK community has an uncanny ability to look at characters in MKX that aren't 50/50 machines but have safe pressure and are just in general extremely safe and go "Has to be broken" then they nerfed and we go on our way. It's like they don't like neutral game or something :/

youthinkyoubadyouaintbad · Jul 29, 2016

CrazyFingers said:
On this subject, I point you to Slasher Jason. He does almost the exact same things you listed AND has 50/50's in the corner. His safety isn't AS high as mileena's but it's close. Machete Toss controls full screen to a shocking degree and it recovers almost instantly. Everything the character does anti-airs (B3, B1, 1, S1, Choke) the hit box on B1 is Mileena B1 levele of good. Jumping? Don't do it on this guy. OH! And meterless damage! Slasher Jason has 32% off of anti-airs everytime. Yet we don't see people screaming "Slasher OP! Top 5!" Why? Well the publicity just isn't there but he has similar, if not almost identical tools (Their main footsies button is the same damn button for god sake's)

i see your slasher and raise you unstoppable

CrazyFingers · Jul 29, 2016

youthinkyoubadyouaintbad said:
i see your slasher and raise you unstoppable

Not even wrong. I feel like Slasher is actually possibly top 10 but Unstoppable is undeniably top 5 for me, he has too much for me to ignore it. Love the character but damn. AND he might get buffs in the next possible patch? I'm scared.

Airvidal · Jul 29, 2016

God Confirm said:
if i recall you need to do it last frames, without launching them first, and you can get a set-up off it. But the set-up is still a 50/50 at the end of the day, with Delayed Wake-up and all that, and thats assuming you count the HTB as unblockable

thats a completely different argument tho. Everyone thinks CSZ is bad, most people agree Cyrax isn't bad.

really? how many 50/50's in this game require the corner, a long knockdown set-up, extremely high execution and can still be poked out of?

The answer is two. CSZ, and Hat Trick. He at least gets ~35-40% off his, like actual corner damage. CSZ gets what 30%? something terrible anyway

that isn't oki tho. meaning it fits the description of pretty poor knockdown

So are we talking about a cortex or a 50/50? You can poke almost every 50/50 slower mover but it takes a read. Same argument you're making for Cyber sub.

Cyrax mains most I've talked to say he sucks and make threads here and there asking about the changes they want.

God Confirm · Jul 29, 2016

Airvidal said:
So are we talking about a cortex or a 50/50? You can poke almost every 50/50 slower mover but it takes a read. Same argument you're making for Cyber sub.

Cyrax mains most I've talked to say he sucks and make threads here and there asking about the changes they want.

???

some characters who's 50/50's can't be poked out of after knockdown

Alien
Jason
Jax
SZ
Sonya
Dvorah
Mileena
Shinnok
Ermac
Quan
Tremor
Raiden

hell i dunno its probably even ALL of them I cbf to keep even thinking about it

So how you gonna says CSZ's corner 50/50 after icebomb set-up (delayed HTB/non-delayed HTB) and thats being generous and calling the HTB "unblockable" which it is not, is on the same level as these 50/50s? they ALL do more damage, and cant be poked out of ? when SZ's does less damage, requires icebomb set-up, and can be poked out of?

i have had to repeat myself multiple times here but you haven't got it in the first two posts

also, newflash, Cyrax community downplays. It's a community with MadeofMetal as its most prolific poster, what do you expect? bringing Cyrax into this is still offtopic. Smoke community does the same thing, it doesnt matter when nobody is talking bout them tho, hes a completely different character so arguments concerning how strong he is have zero relevance in a discussion about how weak CSZ is

Airvidal · Jul 29, 2016

God Confirm said:
???

some characters who's 50/50's can't be poked out of after knockdown

Alien
Jason
Jax
SZ
Sonya
Dvorah
Mileena
Shinnok
Ermac
Quan
Tremor
Raiden

hell i dunno its probably even ALL of them I cbf to keep even thinking about it

So how you gonna says CSZ's corner 50/50 after icebomb set-up (delayed HTB/non-delayed HTB) and thats being generous and calling the HTB "unblockable" which it is not, is on the same level as these 50/50s? they ALL do more damage, and cant be poked out of ? when SZ's does less damage, requires icebomb set-up, and can be poked out of?

i have had to repeat myself multiple times here but you haven't got it in the first two posts

also, newflash, Cyrax community downplays. It's a community with MadeofMetal as its most prolific poster, what do you expect? bringing Cyrax into this is still offtopic. Smoke community does the same thing, it doesnt matter when nobody is talking bout them tho, hes a completely different character so arguments concerning how strong he is have zero relevance in a discussion about how weak CSZ is

Yes, it's completely irrelevant and you should have treated it as such in the first place. I only used him as example, is all.

And I didn't realize you were talking about pokes on knockdown. Thing is though, why would you wanna do the bomb set up if you can go for the 50/50 right off the bat. What do you think b1 and b3 are for. You don't need the bomb on knockdown. You can still use it to mix things up.

Besides, are you telling me you can poke EVERY bomb set up into 50/50 posibility? That would be hard to believe, but I'd like to hear your answer.

God Confirm · Jul 29, 2016

Airvidal said:
And I didn't realize you were talking about pokes on knockdown.

dont know how you got it confused when you were the one talking about his HTB set-ups, and i said thats what you can poke out of. And then I said this "how many 50/50's in this game require the corner, a long knockdown set-up, extremely high execution and can still be poked out of?" so how you thought I wasn't talking about pokes on knockdown god knows, but whatever

Airvidal said:
Thing is though, why would you wanna do the bomb set up if you can go for the 50/50 right off the bat.

Yeah thats.... kinda the point. The advantage of his bomb set up is that its safer than B1 / B3 into iceball - I guess.... i mean there is still character who can punish any HTB attempt whether meterless or delayed, for full combo meterless. I don't know, both options are really bad, and this is kind of why the character sucks

Airvidal said:
You don't need the bomb on knockdown. You can still use it to mix things up.

you say it like its a mix-up, but it's not like you are adding any extra options to your mix-up tho, you put down a bomb and its telepgraphed and reactable, instead you are simply opting for one 50/50 over another...

Airvidal said:
Besides, are you telling me you can poke EVERY bomb set up into 50/50 posibility? That would be hard to believe, but I'd like to hear your answer.

you can wake up poke out of B1, B3, F1, F4, and throw after every single ice bomb set-up he has. Almost everyone can do this with just one button covers all. You shouldn't have to believe anything, you should be testing things first.

Character specific buttons can beat the divekick, which is your only option to beat a poke and get a combo off a set-up. Making it the most unsafe "50/50" opener in the game with the absolute least reward in the corner. And of course, loses to armor, just like every single one of those other buttons do.

God Confirm · Jul 29, 2016

@Airvidal if i see a CSZ drop a bomb on me on the corner im waking up straight into F13~ex-TP, grabbing the corner back and getting mixxy

NOBODY likes risking a raw divekick against a knocked down opponent who you are trying to condition to block for your HTB to work, because its death on block and you lose your corner. The fact that this is his only real way of opening someone up who pokes out of your set-ups, makes his set-ups pretty trash, especially since the reward is less than the punishment - every character in the game is punishing that divekick for more than like the 26% combo hes gets off it, and often leaving you in the corner for your trouble. You were the one saying good things bout his set-ups, now you know why they bad.

Airvidal · Jul 29, 2016

God Confirm said:
dont know how you got it confused when you were the one talking about his HTB set-ups, and i said thats what you can poke out of. And then I said this "how many 50/50's in this game require the corner, a long knockdown set-up, extremely high execution and can still be poked out of?" so how you thought I wasn't talking about pokes on knockdown god knows, but whatever

Yeah thats.... kinda the point. The advantage of his bomb set up is that its safer than B1 / B3 into iceball - I guess.... i mean there is still character who can punish any HTB attempt whether meterless or delayed, for full combo meterless. I don't know, both options are really bad, and this is kind of why the character sucks

you say it like its a mix-up, but it's not like you are adding any extra options to your mix-up tho, you put down a bomb and its telepgraphed and reactable, instead you are simply opting for one 50/50 over another...

you can wake up poke out of B1, B3, F1, F4, and throw after every single ice bomb set-up he has. Almost everyone can do this with just one button covers all. You shouldn't have to believe anything, you should be testing things first.

Character specific buttons can beat the divekick, which is your only option to beat a poke and get a combo off a set-up. Making it the most unsafe "50/50" opener in the game with the absolute least reward in the corner. And of course, loses to armor, just like every single one of those other buttons do.

Know what, Imma test this further and I'll get back to you cause I still have questions and I see so many posibilities and don't wanna drag this convo any longer without testing what you just said. TTYL.

tafka Djinn · Jul 29, 2016

Airvidal said:
Know what, Imma test this further and I'll get back to you cause I still have questions and I see so many possibilities and don't wanna drag this convo any longer without testing what you just said. TTYL.

You beautiful soul, labbing things out because you want to know.

Airvidal · Jul 29, 2016

tafka Djinn said:
You beautiful soul, labbing things out because you want to know.

lol

Discussion The Top 5/Bottom 5 Variations are...

Problem X Promotions

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It is better this way

Canary Cry Gapless Pressure

"You play weird" It's called being unorthodox ;)

We're all from Earthrealm. If not, cool pic brah.

"You play weird" It's called being unorthodox ;)

AUS FGC represent!

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The Power of Lame Compels You

We're all from Earthrealm. If not, cool pic brah.

Canary Cry Gapless Pressure

The Power of Lame Compels You

Noob

The Power of Lame Compels You

"You play weird" It's called being unorthodox ;)

We're all from Earthrealm. If not, cool pic brah.

"You play weird" It's called being unorthodox ;)

We're all from Earthrealm. If not, cool pic brah.

We're all from Earthrealm. If not, cool pic brah.

"You play weird" It's called being unorthodox ;)

One for three off the roof

"You play weird" It's called being unorthodox ;)