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3 common points of reason that needs to die!

IrishMantis

Most humble shit talker ever!!!
I know this going to offend a lot of people but I honestly don't give a Donkey's hoop on how you feel.

The reason I think it will offend because I'm constantly seen these "3 points of reason" be mentioned a lot.

To keep this thread focused on the topic I ain't going to name any MKX characters or players but I will use MK9 and Injustice characters as examples.

You ready?
Don't care if you're not going to say them in anyway.

So these are the 3 common invalid reasons people use to justify why their characters are not viable, not top tier, does not need nerfs, needs buffs or makes players think they are "just that damn good"


1. You never see this character win a major or place Top 8.

This one is the age old excuse to justify there character, there could many factors why you have not seen or rarely see this character top 8.
Is the character being used correctly, is there enough players representing this character at its highest level, are they just genuinely being outplayed before top 8, does the character require more work to learn(oh boy we'll get back this one :p ), unlucky bracketology and so on.

The biggest example to this is DJT winning with Cyrax at MK9 honestly I'm not sure if was first major Cyrax won but people sure as hell used that before Denzell won with Cyrax at Evo as a common point of reason why Cyrax is fine .

It took him not 1 Evo, not 2 Evo's but 3 EVO's to win with the character!

3 Evo's is a long ass time which compliment the points I gave above.

But of course people still had an OS they liked to use to defend that and it's.....



2. There is only 1 player placing/winning consistently when nobody else is.

Ohhhhh pleeeease stop!
Argument 1 I can at least see people believing it's a legit reason, but this point of reason just reeks of desperation that people use to keep a character protected from the nerf hammer.
Honestly with NRS backtracking of over nerfs I don't fully blame them but in a logical World I refuse to believe this is a legit excuse.

First and foremost I never discredit the players ability, the reason why DJT was the only one to win a major with Cyrax is because he fully understood how the character worked, moved and understood all the MUs along side with his godlike personal skills like pattern spotting, reactions, space control and resource management. So this is not to take away any credit from the players who are monsters with these characters but to look at it from a logical standpoint.
Just because YOU are not doing all that good with the character and a top player is, it does not give you the right to use this reason as a defence option.
All my points from reason one follows here but you have to be foolish to think somebody is winning or coming close to winning majors with a mid tier character at a consistent rate.
Just because the player is super good does not mean the character is not super good .

Top tier player + top tier character = ???

But hay that's what makes these guys so much better than the rest, it's that these players have the ability to see what makes there own a top tier character choice and how the style compliments them so they can fully use the tools to their advantage.

But back to the question why are we only seen 1 person place consistently?

I feel it's due to NRS tournament scene not living long enough, player bases dying off as the game continues and most importantly our scene is small as shit!!!!

It's true, this can't be denied.
Although we are successfully growing with each game, we are still a small scene looking from the eyes of Japenese games, there is nothing wrong with either as we are still young and fresh out of the womb since 2011 when Japenese games have being alive at a constant competitive standpoint since the 90s.
Japanese games fighting Games gains competition from the entire World while NRS games so far only pro dominantly appeals to NA (which can and will improve) with a fair share of EU and decent splashes of players from other parts of the World but nothing drastic.
Back to my point let's take Evo numbers. MKX 707 vs SF 5600 (note: I'm not knocking MKX and I think we did super good plus I also don't think it's fair to compare these on which game is better because NRS does not have the legacy yet, but for my example to work I need to compare them from this perspective)
I'm sure if we had that amount of numbers we be seen more one player be a threat with that character, although I don't fully follow the SF scene too much but I can bet my balls if you ask who is a viable threat with "insert here" at a major (twist: I got no balls :eek:, ....Double twist I do they are just twisted...twice) you will get more than one answer, because the scene and legacy is so big it's improbable not to be.
Hell you would even see mid tier characters in MKX place more if that was the case I bet.

I'll just close this one out by saying if player A fights Player B who has equal skill and Player A plays an overpowered top tier character while Player B plays a mid tier char and they both at a FT10 daily for a whole year who do you think will take it? Player A and I would say by a convincing mergin.
Note:by Overpowered I mean who has the slight edge over nearly everyone


3. My character is too hard to play

I told you I'll get back to this :D
I'll keep this one short as it appears a wrote a mother fudging Essay for reason 2 (lol sorry)

We've heard this with Kabal, we've heard this with Skarlet, we've heard this with Zod, we've heard this with Flash and we're damn sure hearing it more than ever now.

"Uhhh, My character too hard"

I find this one more adorable than irritating, but c'mon we know this can't be an excuse lol

My counter to this point of reason is if somebody can or has viably proven this character can played at a practical level then the character is viable and should be treated like other characters.

Practical being the keyword there , as it could be possible that a character is actually too hard but I've yet to see it and it certainly not a thing in MKX.

Just to not sound like a hypocrite for using this in reason A, it can be a factor for not seen a Character win as early as other characters because they require strict execution and execution requires practice and practice requires time.
I just don't believe this can be a reason of justification at all.
I'll finish this out by taking something that you can make as a credible point to this so I can flip it right back in your smug face :p

You could say if Player A and Player B are equally skilled and they both play over powered S tier characters, Player As character is super easy to play and Player Bs character requires A LOT of execution to play in a daily FT10 for a year who wins? Player A right and probably by a decent length too.

But what if they do the same for Year 2 you will drastically see the scores even up to the point of of back and forward.

But here is the reality we talking about nerfing S tiers that are overpowered and if NRS was to take "character too hard" as a legit reason not to nerf Player Bs character and they nerf Player As character and then they run a daily FT10 for a year again now who's the one that's winning? Exactly

You will then be seeing Characters who where too hard to play now dominate the scene.

If you feel you can win easier by playing the easier character go for it, but you should always judge a character by the tools they got which judges the character by MUs which judges the character in viability which is what truly matters.
So stop trying to overwhelm Paulo with cuteness this is not a legit Reason your character should get special treatment.

I bet some of you are pissed huh?
You can invite me to 1v1 pick a low tier beat me 10-0 in a FT10 and teabag me to oblivion till I fly back up in my Mothers Womb but it won't change shit, it will prove you're the better player than me and also how quite childish you are but it won't change my opinion.

So you can entertain me in the comment section, let the thread die off, post TLDR memes, post things that I have covered as a counter because you didn't read the whole thing (inevitable), see a reputable poster/ player argue against me so you can keep liking his comment so this "dummy OP looks wronger" or point out that I weirdly used the word "womb" twice :p

Haha it's up to you.
All I ask (even though somebody will) is to try not bring MKX players or character community's to avoid getting off topic.
This thread was honestly made with no player or community in mind so this is a subliminal blow up. Thank you.

Side question how many characters did I use on the word character alone?
 
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ismael4790

Stay focused or get Caged
"character" appears 44 times in the text. 44*9=396 characters used. Nice roster :p

Interesting post. The only way to justify that a character is good or not, is to look at his/her toolset and analize the pros and cons, in comparison with the other characters in the roster. If a character is easier to use that might be a plus, but in the end all that matters is what a character can do or not, and this is not related in any way with the players.
 

Eddy Wang

Skarlet scientist
Skarlet was hard to play, but at the highest level she also produced very good results which was well worth the time tho, of course this shouldn't be an excuse in MKX when someone mains a character under the same category, problem is there are far more easy-to-play characters which produces fastest results with far less of a time and effort and maybe fundamentals and even if you main a "hard to play" character there is not telling if you using said character at high level will still be better than one which has a much more simple concept.

I agree with the rest tho.

Also this hard to play character thing, if there is really one in MK, a character of that caliber should've been designed to be top tier at the highest level to balance the level of skill.

If you look at Kazuya in Tekken, he is often ranked among the best characters of the game, but he is probably the hardest mishima to use, since he requires lots of fundamentals, execution top notch because his hardest to execute move its practically his launcher, his poke, his pressure his frame trap, his everything, and has a good oki game out of his mixups, but his normals aren't that great if you don't condition people with ewgfs first.
 

IrishMantis

Most humble shit talker ever!!!
Skarlet was hard to play, but at the highest level she also produced very good results which was well worth the time tho, of course this shouldn't be an excuse in MKX when someone mains a character under the same category, problem is there are far more easy-to-play characters which produces fastest results with far less of a time and effort and maybe fundamentals and even if you main a "hard to play" character there is not telling if you using said character at high level will still be better than one which has a much more simple concept.

I agree with the rest tho.

Also this hard to play character thing, if there is really one in MK, a character of that caliber should've been designed to be top tier at the highest level to balance the level of skill.

If you look at Kazuya in Tekken, he is often ranked among the best characters of the game, but he is probably the hardest mishima to use, since he requires lots of fundamentals, execution top notch because his hardest to execute move its practically his launcher, his poke, his pressure his frame trap, his everything, and has a good oki game out of his mixups, but his normals aren't that great if you don't condition people with ewgfs first.
Sounds me like you Agree with all my points unless you think a char should never be touched because they require more execution which I don't think you are
 

HanSolo

Noob
I'm confused. It seemed like you were going in the direction of "level up and quit blaming your character", but then you took a turn and basically said mid-tier characters can't win.

Confused.
 

IrishMantis

Most humble shit talker ever!!!
I'm confused. It seemed like you were going in the direction of "level up and quit blaming your character", but then you took a turn and basically said mid-tier characters can't win.

Confused.
My bad can you quote the parts and I'll try to clarify what I meant ?

About the mid tier thing I was that as a contrast between if a top tier player used a character vs a top tier character as example

Yeah I did say it in "hell maybe a mid tier character can place" but the point of the thread is not about how viable mid tier char Iis that's a subject that's already being covered
 

Eddy Wang

Skarlet scientist
Sounds me like you Agree with all my points unless you think a char should never be touched because they require more execution which I don't think you are
We're on the same page.

Sadly most people today think high execution characters are not worth the trouble if we have far-easy-to-use top tiers characters in the same game, i can't blame them for that.
 

STRYKIE

Are ya' ready for MK11 kids?!
Good points all round, but as far as who does well with certain characters I think the agenda setting of characters can definitely end up working both ways.

Erron Black is a good example of this. He was sworn to be top tier for quite some time but it's only now that SonicFox only uses him relatively sporadically that he's allowed to have his problems. Notions such as his mids not being good enough, you can OS all his tick grabs, his armor is slow etc. (and no patches changed any of that, those things were always the case with Erron.)

If Sonic never played Outlaw, I honestly don't think that variation ever would've had the publicity that it did.
 

Espio

Kokomo
Lead Moderator
This was a great post and a nice wake up call that everyone needs to step up how they argue and make their points for characters. When people argue rationally and sensibly, we all win. I do have some feedback though. You mentioned player A playing player B where A uses top tier and B uses mid tier in sets and the person playing top will come out more often, but I believe this ignores that some mid tiers go 5-5 with top tiers, this happened at times in Injustice. That was the only point I was a bit puzzled on and just wanted to address.
 

IrishMantis

Most humble shit talker ever!!!
We're on the same page.

Sadly most people today think high execution characters are not worth the trouble if we have far-easy-to-use top tiers characters in the same game, i can't blame them for that.
That's absolutely true and I said in the OP too if they prefer to play an easier char go do it

Personally I prefer the challenge of a harder to play char but that's getting off the point
 

IrishMantis

Most humble shit talker ever!!!
This was a great post and a nice wake up call that everyone needs to step up how they argue and make their points for characters. When people argue rationally and sensibly, we all win. I do have some feedback though. You mentioned player A playing player B where A uses top tier and B uses mid tier in sets and the person playing top will come out more often, but I believe this ignores that some mid tiers go 5-5 with top tiers, this happened at times in Injustice. That was the only point I was a bit puzzled on and just wanted to address.
That's a good perspective

Hmmm let me think of how to word it better

Nvm I got it it's a bit of a cheat tough :p
 

RyuKazuya

Jesus is my Lord and Savior!
That was an interesting post and especially a thread that shouldnt be deleated at all.

Well, I want to be honest. I was one of those justifying a characters streangth for requiring harder execution than the others. But in fact it is not a justification at all, as you have already mentioned in your post. Even though I am not a top player to say anything about a special character, i still defended alist for example for having harder moves to execute. The problem is that, when a character has good tools, they can still by practiced to near perfection making no difference if it is hard or not since everyone will use them in the end making the character a horrible experience for the opponent. With that being said there is still one thing that I miss in the MKX scene, namely getting the props for having good execution like KillerXinok or you Mantis yourself.

Yet I agree with every point you brought up. The thing we need to focus on to determine wether a character is strong or not is the tools the character has.
Same in Tekken. EWGFS might be hard for some people to execute but it is still a great move that helps mishimas being on top of the tier list. Same with bryan in Tekken 6. Despite of having good moves in general, he also had an unblockable launcher that was very damaging. People got props for the execution but the character was still considered to be really damn strong for someone who mangaged to execute it consistantly. (KNEE does)

Again great post brother. Threads like these are actually needed to discuss the casual mentality that many members have on TYM
 

Harlequin969

Always press buttons
If only any of these excuses had saved CSZ from the nerf hammer

Joking aside I agree with all of these points having been a spectator until MKX
 

HanSolo

Noob
All my points from reason one follows here but you have to be foolish to think somebody is winning or coming close to winning majors with a mid tier character at a consistent rate.
So only top tier characters can place consistently, but how much of the cast would you say is top tier? Or by the DJT example are you implying that the game hasn't breathed enough to discover all of the top tiers?

Idk I'm having a hard time describing my confusion. I'm pretty sure I agree with your overall message though. Too many excuses round here.
 

IrishMantis

Most humble shit talker ever!!!
Good points all round, but as far as who does well with certain characters I think the agenda setting of characters can definitely end up working both ways.

Erron Black is a good example of this. He was sworn to be top tier for quite some time but it's only now that SonicFox only uses him relatively sporadically that he's allowed to have his problems. Notions such as his mids not being good enough, you can OS all his tick grabs, his armor is slow etc. (and no patches changed any of that, those things were always the case with Erron.)

If Sonic never played Outlaw, I honestly don't think that variation ever would've had the publicity that it did.
True

That's an another issue that can be its own thread entirely but I ain't writing anymore threads I'm bollixed ha
That was an interesting post and especially a thread that shouldnt be deleated at all.

Well, I want to be honest. I was one of those justifying a characters streangth for requiring harder execution than the others. But in fact it is not a justification at all, as you have already mentioned in your post. Even though I am not a top player to say anything about a special character, i still defended alist for example for having harder moves to execute. The problem is that, when a character has good tools, they can still by practiced to near perfection making no difference if it is hard or not since everyone will use them in the end making the character a horrible experience for the opponent. With that being said there is still one thing that I miss in the MKX scene, namely getting the props for having good execution like KillerXinok or you Mantis yourself.

Yet I agree with every point you brought up. The thing we need to focus on to determine wether a character is strong or not is the tools the character has.
Same in Tekken. EWGFS might be hard for some people to execute but it is still a great move that helps mishimas being on top of the tier list. Same with bryan in Tekken 6. Despite of having good moves in general, he also had an unblockable launcher that was very damaging. People got props for the execution but the character was still considered to be really damn strong for someone who mangaged to execute it consistantly. (KNEE does)

Again great post brother. Threads like these are actually needed to discuss the casual mentality that many members have on TYM
Thank you man most of it was in toungue and cheek and aimed at people who refuse to listen which is not you

Thanks for the kind words bro <3
 

shura30

Shura
bruh
internet is full of "(soap bar in my mouth)" thinking exactly the way you described 'just because' majors have a spotlight on

too bad because we live in the internet era and by looking at how things are done (aka how the asias do them) we should have learned something

tiers are decided off matchup charts
any other topic of discussion is just idiotic and there's countless on this very board
unless someone takes his time to draw a table representing how well or bad each character does against the rest threads like the ones that popped these last few weeks are just to kill time reading some stupidity
 
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SaltShaker

In Zoning We Trust
Finally a thread sparking some real debate with good perspective from the side represented. I'll chime in on what I agree/disagree on.

3) Fully agree. Character difficulty has zero to do with results when you master said character. It does for a while, but there comes a point where execution becomes the norm when you have your char down.

2) and 1) somewhat merge imo, from my stance at least. It's where I disagree. See Cyrax is more of an exception than the rule. Character was strong, very strong, just hadn't won the big one. It would be like saying Bane in Inj wasn't super strong and damn near broken because no one got Top 3 at a major. Many times you can pretty much see who is good, who is bad, who is broken, and who is garbage, unless some game changing tech is found. The longer a game is alive, the more the perception becomes reality. No amount of Inj1 will make Cyborg place Top 3. Which leads me to my biggest disagree.

Most characters are underused or do not place because they aren't that good. I fully believe this. Not just in MK or Inj, but all games. You'll never see an Inj major of 500 people with 50 Jokers, or a 500 MKX major with 50 Kenshi's. But you will see so many people "pick up" Mileena or "pick up" Alien or "drop CSZ" or "drop Raiden". It will never happen where low tiers dominate tourneys in abundance. Why? Because players play to win, and they pick the best characters. The low tier are low because their tools are inferior, which is a turnoff for competitive players, which leads to low representation, which leads to poor tourney performance/appearance. It's a cycle. There are exceptions like Cutt Kano who have low rep, but the majority that have low rep is because the char sucks or a char does the same thing but better.
 

IrishMantis

Most humble shit talker ever!!!
Finally a thread sparking some real debate with good perspective from the side represented. I'll chime in on what I agree/disagree on.

3) Fully agree. Character difficulty has zero to do with results when you master said character. It does for a while, but there comes a point where execution becomes the norm when you have your char down.

2) and 1) somewhat merge imo, from my stance at least. It's where I disagree. See Cyrax is more of an exception than the rule. Character was strong, very strong, just hadn't won the big one. It would be like saying Bane in Inj wasn't super strong and damn near broken because no one got Top 3 at a major. Many times you can pretty much see who is good, who is bad, who is broken, and who is garbage, unless some game changing tech is found. The longer a game is alive, the more the perception becomes reality. No amount of Inj1 will make Cyborg place Top 3. Which leads me to my biggest disagree.

Most characters are underused or do not place because they aren't that good. I fully believe this. Not just in MK or Inj, but all games. You'll never see an Inj major of 500 people with 50 Jokers, or a 500 MKX major with 50 Kenshi's. But you will see so many people "pick up" Mileena or "pick up" Alien or "drop CSZ" or "drop Raiden". It will never happen where low tiers dominate tourneys in abundance. Why? Because players play to win, and they pick the best characters. The low tier are low because their tools are inferior, which is a turnoff for competitive players, which leads to low representation, which leads to poor tourney performance/appearance. It's a cycle. There are exceptions like Cutt Kano who have low rep, but the majority that have low rep is because the char sucks or a char does the same thing but better.
Yeah same with yourself a none offensively passive reply I'm washed out for now but I'll reply back to you in awhile

Cheers for the thought out reply bro
 

IrishMantis

Most humble shit talker ever!!!
Im assuming everybody who read this know I wrote it in tongue and cheek rather than being a dick :p
 

Asodimazze

https://twitter.com/AlfioZacco
An Irishman was flustered not being able to find a parking space in a large mall's parking lot.

"Lord,"he prayed,"I can't stand this.If you open a space up for me,I swear I'll give up drinking me whiskey, and I promise to go to church every Sunday."

Suddenly, the clouds parted and the sun shone on an empty parking spot. Without hesitation, the man said,"Never mind,I found one."