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Why does Sonic Fox win everything?

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Hiyomoto

Hiyomoto

Noob
Youphemism said:
Oh look, coolwhip is criticising something on TYM again *mild shock*

Please go ahead and prove this "undeniable fact" with evidence besides because you said so. In the meantime have a read at this: http://www.npr.org/sections/ed/2016/06/01/479335421/practice-makes-possible-what-we-learn-by-studying-amazing-kids

This Fatal 8 example is also terrible because it's based on the assumption that all of them put in the same effort and labbed the same things. Unless you can actually prove they all looked at/labbed the same things and practiced the same things then that example barely proves anything. Also

Really? You're really implying that him winning wasn't because he put in the effort? Just this magical "talent" which totally isn't just a developed understanding of fighting games from having experience in multiple previous ones. Oh boy.

How ridiculous to say that anyone can do something they want to do if they put in enough time, dedication and practice. Boy all those people who achieve their dreams by doing just that are so ridiculous right? Noone can live up to these inhuman people with this unachievable "talent". I can admit I don't put in enough time/effort/practice, I play once a week at my local. I do well there but I know have things to improve on if I even want to be one of the best in the UK never mind in the world, just like anyone else. If I played it all the time and actually put in the effort and studied what makes a top fighting game player then, believe it or not, yes maybe years from now I could be up there. You could be up there. Buffalo could be up there. z-azeez could be up there. Sorry you just want to use excuses to make it seem like the highest level is unachievable.

Reach further man, reach further. I didn't say other top players hadn't been in the lab for more than 5 minutes, I'm just saying they have been in the lab for more than 5 minutes. I could've said 100 minutes, 1000, 100000. Doesn't matter because the number of minutes isn't the point.
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Yes hard work does achieve great things but at one point, hard work isn't going to really cut it. He brought up a very good point. Kasparov starting the game of chess at 6 and mastering it by 8. Something that people have revolved their entire lifetime trying to achieve. Yes you will get better through practice, reptition, dedication, ect but at one point, it just isn't going to cut it at all. Combine this with the fact that Sonicfox makes a living off this game so he literally gets paid to do what he loves so it's not even work to him. Probably just a fun game of wits to him. Even younger, he was doing great and going against veteran players in fighting games. If you think that's just solely achieved from "lab time" then I don't know what to say because to me, it's not. There's just too much of a skill gap between Sonicfox and other top players for it to be just the amount of lab time put in. But yes, you do bring up a point because I saw TOO MANY missed punish opportunities in EVO's pool alone. Lab time will make things easier but you can practice your whole life and won't have "it".
 
Youphemism

Youphemism

Gunslinger since pre patch (sh/out to The Farmer)
coolwhip said:
I'm arguing with someone who confuses disagreement for criticism. So... yeah. I mean, don't get me wrong, I often criticize you for being unbearable, a sentiment shared by many here, but in this thread, I merely responded to your post.

A post where you're denying the existence of talent. I mean, seriously, why even bother with the rest?

I love how you ignored the bulk of the post that disproves your points.
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You said that my argument wa "ridiculous", that is a criticism. But continue with the personal attacks while you reread that post I linked you explaining that "talent" is merely, like I said, the result of effort, time and practice. I think I'd take actual evidence provided by someone who actually studies that than someone who likes making assumptions, not providing evidence and taking jabs at me/my posts instead of trying to provide a decent counterargument.

Of course you're claiming what I said was ridiculous instead of providing a proper counterargument, you can't even prove me wrong. You still haven't. So you can continue attacking my argument to fish for likes or whatever, or you can try and come back at me with some evidence and some logic :rolleyes:

I like how you yet again are making assumptions. I didn't ignore them, I read them. I just didn't have anything to say on those points.
 
Youphemism

Youphemism

Gunslinger since pre patch (sh/out to The Farmer)
For the record I'm not saying just being in the lab all day every day is what it takes to win, I did also mention matchup experience as being another possible factor. Lab work is one thing, then you'll know the character, but everyone plays a character differently. From then on it's looking at player specifics and that also comes form matchup experience.
Hiyomoto said:
Yes hard work does achieve great things but at one point, hard work isn't going to really cut it. He brought up a very good point. Kasparov starting the game of chess at 6 and mastering it by 8. Something that people have revolved their entire lifetime trying to achieve. Yes you will get better through practice, reptition, dedication, ect but at one point, it just isn't going to cut it at all. Combine this with the fact that Sonicfox makes a living off this game so he literally gets paid to do what he loves so it's not even work to him. Probably just a fun game of wits to him. Even younger, he was doing great and going against veteran players in fighting games. If you think that's just solely achieved from "lab time" then I don't know what to say because to me, it's not. There's just too much of a skill gap between Sonicfox and other top players for it to be just the amount of lab time put in. But yes, you do bring up a point because I saw TOO MANY missed punish opportunities in EVO's pool alone. Lab time will make things easier but you can practice your whole life and won't have "it".
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I didn't say it was just solely achieved from lab time, I said it was one of those reasons.
 
coolwhip

coolwhip

Noob
Youphemism said:
You said that my argument wa "ridiculous", that is a criticism. But continue with the personal attacks while you reread that post I linked you explaining that "talent" is merely, like I said, the result of effort, time and practice. I think I'd take actual evidence provided by someone who actually studies that than someone who likes making assumptions, not providing evidence and taking jabs at me/my posts instead of trying to provide a decent counterargument.

Of course you're claiming what I said was ridiculous instead of providing a proper counterargument, you can't even prove me wrong. You still haven't. So you can continue attacking my argument to fish for likes or whatever, or you can try and come back at me with some evidence and some logic :rolleyes:

I like how you yet again are making assumptions. I didn't ignore them, I read them. I just didn't have anything to say on those points.
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Saying that your argument/post is ridiculous is criticizing said argument/post. Saying you're dumb would be criticizing you. It baffles me that you can't see the difference.

Yes, I'm making "assumptions" about talent. Me and like...the whole world, because of one study you read. Fantastic. Talent doesn't exist.

That's why person A can be better than person B at something despite person B working twice as hard. Sure buddy. Got anymore studies to link me to?
 
coolwhip

coolwhip

Noob
A 6 year old picks up a ball and within a month looks like he's super gifted at a particular sport. That's not talent guys, that's just hard work. Every child prodigy is the result of hard work as a child. Hard work he was able to put in while simultaneously going to school, doing his homework, and other child-related activities.

This is seriously what is being claimed in this thread. The word "talented" should never be used because there's no such thing. It's just an excuse.

Again, that is something that someone is not only claiming, but doing it in a condescending fashion and calling his arguments facts. Then again, that person also trained himself to react to Batgirl's 50/50... (see, now that's criticism).
 
Youphemism

Youphemism

Gunslinger since pre patch (sh/out to The Farmer)
Hiyomoto said:
You think "talent" isn't a factor at all? Just an "excuse" that other people who've worked their whole life to achieve use to pat themselves on the back for their own shortcomings against their superior rival?
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I think talent is just an easier way to say something like "this person has put in more time/effort/practice/dedication than me and has explored more options". If someone is superior there has to be a reason for it, it's not like Sonic is using some unknown tool.
coolwhip said:
Saying that your argument/post is ridiculous is criticizing said argument/post. Saying you're dumb would be criticizing you. It baffles me that you can't see the difference.

Yes, I'm making "assumptions" about talent. Me and like...the whole world, because of one study you read. Fantastic. Talent doesn't exist.

That's why person A can be better than person B at something despite person B working twice as hard. Sure buddy. Got anymore studies to link me to?
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Wow, more assumptions already. Why are you assuming I don't know the difference? I said you were criticising something, didn't say it was me personally. Got any more assumptions to make?

Oh it seems you do. Assuming that the "whole world" agrees with you. Not egotistical at all. Oh and another assumption, please tell me where I said talent didn't exist. If you can't find where I said that then I'd probably advise not trying to make things up for the sake of avoiding a logical retort.

Great, another hypothetical situation that doesn't even apply to this thread.

God if you're going to try and argue with me at least keep it on topic and try providing evidence to back up your arguments instead of being condescending and reaching for points I'm not even making.
 
Youphemism

Youphemism

Gunslinger since pre patch (sh/out to The Farmer)
Oh and look, bringing up more points that aren't relevant (and also not true). I guess coolwhip forgot what fuzzying was and what a logical, on-topic counterargument that doesn't rely on personal jabs looks like.
 
E

Eldriken

Guest
@Youphemism, if that's what you consider talent to be, then explain the chess analogy that was presented to you. Explain why some people are naturally better than others despite said others working infinitely harder trying (not achieving) to be better than the person who's currently better than them?

How are you not understanding this, dude? The word "talent" exists for a reason and it applies to this very thread's purpose.
 
Hiyomoto

Hiyomoto

Noob
Youphemism said:
I think talent is just an easier way to say something like "this person has put in more time/effort/practice/dedication than me and has explored more options". If someone is superior there has to be a reason for it, it's not like Sonic is using some unknown tool.

Wow, more assumptions already. Why are you assuming I don't know the difference? I said you were criticising something, didn't say it was me personally. Got any more assumptions to make?

Oh it seems you do. Assuming that the "whole world" agrees with you. Not egotistical at all. Oh and another assumption, please tell me where I said talent didn't exist. If you can't find where I said that then I'd probably advise not trying to make things up for the sake of avoiding a logical retort.

Great, another hypothetical situation that doesn't even apply to this thread.

God if you're going to try and argue with me at least keep it on topic and try providing evidence to back up your arguments instead of being condescending and reaching for points I'm not even making.
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Say I'm a 30 something year old top chess player and have been since I was about 11. Then a kid picks it up at 7 and he's far better than me and every other player I know by the time he's 9. Are you saying that kids skills are superior because he put in more practice and effort than I did? Even though I have been practicing longer than he's been alive and have much more experience going against top level players than him? I would call it talent, plain and simple. What about people who can replay a song on a piano just from hearing it once? If they have the talent and have so much fun that they put in a ton of work to further expand on that natural skill then it makes them superior to the competition.
 
GrimJack

GrimJack

Rock paper scissor specialist
Youphemism said:
I think talent is just an easier way to say something like "this person has put in more time/effort/practice/dedication than me and has explored more options". If someone is superior there has to be a reason for it, it's not like Sonic is using some unknown tool.
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So can you explain to me the case of Usain Bolt or Michael Phelps. Why they are so dominant in their respective sport?
If you say that sport which requires physical attributes is different then what about the like of Bill Gates or Einstein?
Talent exists and it is one big factor in everything even gaming.
​
 
Dankster Morgan

Dankster Morgan

It is better this way
He is winning because:
1. He is more talented. He was born with the capacity to see the game and break it down in ways others can't. All the top players have this, but his is higher.
2. He also puts in a ton of effort. Talent + effort = a champion. Talent alone = someone skillful, as does effort alone.

Do you actually think that all the other top players aren't labing stuff? That he is the only one that does that? All of the top players grind all day to be good at this game and be competitive. He is born two steps ahead.
 
GrimJack

GrimJack

Rock paper scissor specialist
In the case of Sonicfox. He has everything. He put in the work, lab many different characters but he is also the biggest talent. Isn't it what we call him a prodigy for?
The example is Sonic vs Yomi in the game first year. You can't say the yomi guys put in an incredible amount of work and effort. But sonic stil win most of the time. If you has more talent and you put in the same amount of work, you will gain the result
 
Superi0rMagik

Superi0rMagik

You only get smarter by playing a smarter opponent
if I hit 2,500 ball each day, I'll hit 17,500 balls each week, and at the end of one year I'll have hit nearly 1,000,000 balls. I Believe in math. Numbers don't lie. A child who hits 1,000,000 balls each year will be unbeatable."
-Andre Agassi
 
RoboCop

RoboCop

The future of law enforcement.
Administrator
Premium Supporter
Eric Clapton almost gave up guitar because it didn't come naturally to him and he had such a hard time doing even the most basic stuff. True story. Raw talent does exist, but at some point practice and determination overshadows it.
 
Linkuei82

Linkuei82

Live by the sword, Die by the sword
Jesus,

The answer has been made countless time with Hard work and Talent is involved with Sonic Fox success. Talent does exist. It exist in all sports. You think any boxer who works as hard as he can can KO people like Tyson or be a amazing boxer like Ali if they just work hard enough and that's it?
 
KingHippo

KingHippo

Alternative-Fact Checker
Another big reason that I only see a few people mentioning is like other top players who are super dominant at other titles (Infiltration, Sleep, Zero, etc.) is that they exclusively play the best characters with one or two goofy alts, something that a lot of people in this scene tend to see as a blowup, which is shocking.

The reality is SonicFox is really one of the few "professionals" in gaming. He plays the best characters and gives himself the best chance to win from the start, an advantage given to every player playing the game. He also has never once talked about quitting or not playing the game anymore because of [insert reason], he just plays.

This all has a profound effect on the mind I'm sure, and helps him keep his cool even in the worst of situations (Like his recent GF turnaround against Tekken Master). When the entire thread for his Evo win is "Ulllll used Alien ulllll" it's just a sign of how immature and crappy the bottom half of the community is that they would rather he lived and died by his lesser character instead of playing to win. Which he does, almost exclusively.

In contrast, the other top guys who would submit themselves as "pro gamers" are people who do nothing but cry on Twitter about how they are quitting, or bemoan their character, or spam tier charts with seemingly little to no application of foresight or reason. There are a very few elite who simply play the game and do what needs to be done, and those are the guys that could potentially best Fox in a set. Until then, get used to Dominique McClean being very good for a very long time.
 
L

lilyunggrabbagjr

Noob
You all are overthinking it sonic has a word champion brother as a fg player so by default at a young age probably even like 5 yrs old he had to learn how to compete with him so assuming that did happen plus the fact that children are sponges he absorbed everything he learned playing his brother assuminv he did start at age 5 thats 13 yrs under his belt plus like 3-4 yrs of tourney experience think about it if he had this insane "talent" he would probably whoop his brother at doa but everytime i see them play he gets rekt
 
GAV

GAV

Resolution through knowledge and resolve.
coolwhip said:
A 6 year old picks up a ball and within a month looks like he's super gifted at a particular sport. That's not talent guys, that's just hard work. Every child prodigy is the result of hard work as a child. Hard work he was able to put in while simultaneously going to school, doing his homework, and other child-related activities.

This is seriously what is being claimed in this thread. The word "talented" should never be used because there's no such thing. It's just an excuse.

Again, that is something that someone is not only claiming, but doing it in a condescending fashion and calling his arguments facts. Then again, that person also trained himself to react to Batgirl's 50/50... (see, now that's criticism).
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Talent is valid though. Some people are predisposed to be good at some things. Some people are predisposed to like certain things. Sonic Fox is predisposed to both be good at and like fighting games. Since he started earliest with NRS games, those are the ones he is best at.

I started lifting weights in middle school. By the time I was a senior in HS, I was in the 2K club on just three lifts - squats, deadlift, and bench.

I have wanted to dunk a basketball since I saw my dad do it as a baby. I bought the tip toe shoes that make you jump higher. I ran every day. I did squat jumps and practiced going up to dunk every day. I have never been able to dunk a basketball. The closest I ever got was dunking one of those small college balls you win at a carnival. I was never built to be a leaper. My frame is built for strength. I could run fast, but jumping high isn't a talent I was born with. I'm not even short.

Don't get me wrong. No "talent" matters without working hard to build on it, but there are limits to what people can do. If you're talented and predisposed to love something, that is the ultimate gift you can have. My guess is that Sonic Fox has both those gifts at fighting games.
 
coolwhip

coolwhip

Noob
GAV said:
Talent is valid though. Some people are predisposed to be good at some things. Some people are predisposed to like certain things. Sonic Fox is predisposed to both be good at and like fighting games. Since he started earliest with NRS games, those are the ones he is best at.

I started lifting weights in middle school. By the time I was a senior in HS, I was in the 2K club on just three lifts - squats, deadlift, and bench.

I have wanted to dunk a basketball since I saw my dad do it as a baby. I bought the tip toe shoes that make you jump higher. I ran every day. I did squat jumps and practiced going up to dunk every day. I have never been able to dunk a basketball. The closest I ever got was dunking smaller balls. I was never built to be a leaper. My frame is built for strength. I could run fast, but jumping high isn't a talent I was born with. I'm not even short.

Don't get me wrong. No "talent" matters without working hard to build on it, but there are limits to what people can do. If you're talented and predisposed to love something, that is the ultimate gift you can have.
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The post you quoted was sarcastic. I've been arguing the same thing you argued in this post all thread.
 
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