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Why does Sonic Fox win everything?

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Dabluprint4

eh....
No offense to Foxy, but a top player will never say that the game they're a top player at is insanely complicated. It's like when people on TYM say that X character is brain dead. They might be easy for us to use, because we've been playing it for a year.

MKX is pretty deep and still a young game.

Also, lol @ that guy saying that Foxy's post is polluted by ego, within his own SUPER condescending post. How about you go win Melee tournaments instead of posting on TYM.
You're awesome.. lmao
 

MadeOfMetal

Kenshi Srubtastic,Cyrax, Special Forces Mains
lol honestly, anyone could beat him if they dropped the excuses and went for it, its almost like everyone forgot that he was far from the best in MK9 with his Mileena and DJT, Reo, and Even Waffles mopped him back then. Anyone at any time can get better than the best, using the there is always someone better than you argument should not be considered, (think of it as there is always someone better than sonic you just haven't seen the match yet) I dare even say that Brady even beat him consistently back in mk9. i think most just lost thier confidence and thus lost there game.
 

Tweedy

Noob
lol honestly, anyone could beat him if they dropped the excuses and went for it, its almost like everyone forgot that he was far from the best in MK9 with his Mileena and DJT, Reo, and Even Waffles mopped him back then. Anyone at any time can get better than the best, using the there is always someone better than you aregument should not be considered, (think of it as there is always someone better than sonic you just haven't seen the match yet)
He was like 13-14.

So many people are working super hard to potentially be top players at this game. It's never going to be a matter of "dropping the excuses and going for it". Players that you see outside of the top 8s all of the time, like Illuusions, Jer, Toxin, those guys are so insanely good and work incredibly hard. I mean Biohazard cried when he lost and could probably 30-0 just about everyone on this board, yet couldn't breach top 8. Players like Foxy and Fox have just been at this for so long and are so talented.

The competition is fierce.
 

MadeOfMetal

Kenshi Srubtastic,Cyrax, Special Forces Mains
He was like 13-14.

So many people are working super hard to potentially be top players at this game. It's never going to be a matter of "dropping the excuses and going for it". Players that you see outside of the top 8s all of the time, like Illuusions, Jer, Toxin, those guys are so insanely good and work incredibly hard. I mean Biohazard cried when he lost and could probably 30-0 just about everyone on this board, yet couldn't breach top 8. Players like Foxy and Fox have just been at this for so long and are so talented.

The competition is fierce.
i agree the competition is fierce, and they are all very good, but i have seen to many of them make excuses for thier loses, first it was, "Sonic is a loser that only uses 50/50's" then it was "he only uses top characters with it all" then it moved onto, "my character has a bad matchup against his" then it was, "he uses mids to much and they are too strong" I even herd " he cheats with unfair tactics" what i was stating was fact, and just saying instead of them, learning from what they did wrong they blamed Characters, Mechanics, Sonics Skill Level, or made countless excuses instead of bettering themselfs in the areas they needed to to win. i still remember the first major sonic spoke out, everyone thought he would lose, and he said " i will win none of them can guess a 50/50 forever, eventually they will get opened up, and none of them realize it" and guess what he was right, none of them thought it was that important, they either though, Footsie space control or a handful of other tactics was more important, it just seemed he had it figured out and planned every inch of this game from the beginning before anyone did.

if yo0u remember correctly, everyone was complaining about the wrong tactics/gameplan and or character while he was focusing on what actually mattered. like when everyone said Kitana was trash, then he pulled her out of nowhere and said, "she is top tier and very good, you will see" and he was right.


All of them are very skilled and talented, they obviously did something wrong as we can see that now.
 
I have found the answer to the question my thread posed. Foxy's last post to me seemed like just a hate filled insult at first but after looking at it again, he answered my question perfectly. He told me " If YOU have such a good mentality on what it takes to understand and dethrone sonic fox, why don't you do it? Then I'll make a thread titled why does soul bound x lose everything (like me)" . In this he is implying that I'm saying that I have the mentality that he is admitting he doesn't have. He doesn't know what it takes or why he keeps losing, or why Sonic Fox keeps winning. I know for an absolute fact sonic fox does not have this mentality. If sonic fox doesn't know what's going on when he plays someone, i know for damn sure his attitude is "I WILL learn what's going on and what just happened." His mentality is I WILL win and I WILL be the best. Look at his face when he started losing at evo. That face said "FUCK THIS. I'm NOT losing today." CONFIDENCE. Confidence. These top players lack that confidence. They don't have it. That confidence that was on the face of sonic fox at evo when he took that hat off, they don't have that. And the more sonic fox wins, the more legendary he gets, and the more the confidence of his competition declines. I am 99% certain this is the actual reason he is so good. Wow. This thread turned out to be more useful than I had previously thought it would be. I think my work is done.
 

xenogorgeous

.... they mostly come at night. Mostly.
at the current NRS FG scene moment, he is the best, no doubt about .... probably, a hell of combination of .... natural talent, skill, adptability, high level knowledge of matchups data, dedication, disciplin, long time of training sessions, training labs exploration, high reaction capacity and the list goes on .... the dude is insanely good at NRS fighting games ... someone has to be the best, simple like that ... so it's just happens to be Sonic Fox to take over this highlighted spot/place, nothing complicated to figure out .... the guy has refined and excelent skill in MK games, and probably will kick ass in Injustice 2, so, he is an ultra good player regarding NRS games. He seems to adapt/learning well and evolve a lot as great player when playing the fighting games produced by NRS/WB.Maybe he is very fearless/brainy while playing at the highest level competition in NRS fighting game community and this causes to improve all others necessary talent along with.
 

Laggin

Noob
Actually, I know why he's good. I know what it takes to be the best. It takes love for the game, practicing a lot, learning it in and out, and dedication to being the best. I guess the real question I'm trying to ask is where the hell is all the competition? Seriously. No one wants to be better? Where are the other top players? Have you guys not been watching videos and studying him? It's not like he has some incredibly secret knowledge of the game
that you don't have. It's frame data, spacing, and mind games. This guy has been on top since the game released and no one has learned how to beat him? Really??? You guys are slacking. Sonic Fox is amazing and deserves all the credit he ever gets, but a lot of the reason he's always been number 1 HAS to be because the other top players just aren't working hard enough. You guys need to get it together.
well tekken master got him to take the hat off, that's the same as beating him right :D
 

A F0xy Grampa

Problem X Promotions
I have found the answer to the question my thread posed. Foxy's last post to me seemed like just a hate filled insult at first but after looking at it again, he answered my question perfectly. He told me " If YOU have such a good mentality on what it takes to understand and dethrone sonic fox, why don't you do it? Then I'll make a thread titled why does soul bound x lose everything (like me)" . In this he is implying that I'm saying that I have the mentality that he is admitting he doesn't have. He doesn't know what it takes or why he keeps losing, or why Sonic Fox keeps winning. I know for an absolute fact sonic fox does not have this mentality. If sonic fox doesn't know what's going on when he plays someone, i know for damn sure his attitude is "I WILL learn what's going on and what just happened." His mentality is I WILL win and I WILL be the best. Look at his face when he started losing at evo. That face said "FUCK THIS. I'm NOT losing today." CONFIDENCE. Confidence. These top players lack that confidence. They don't have it. That confidence that was on the face of sonic fox at evo when he took that hat off, they don't have that. And the more sonic fox wins, the more legendary he gets, and the more the confidence of his competition declines. I am 99% certain this is the actual reason he is so good. Wow. This thread turned out to be more useful than I had previously thought it would be. I think my work is done.
All assumptions, not once have I ever sat down to play sonic/anyone and thought I was going to lose.

I never have and never will. Even after having lost before.

You can't say that the competition lacks mental fortitude when players make major come backs all the time.

The 'I'm not losing to this' mentality is common and it's quite clearly visible, not just a sonic fox thing.

You're saying I lose everything, I've won 20-30 odd tournaments in the past year, so you're wrong.

You might not have what it takes to win in MK, but I know I do. So that being said, how can you tell me what I need to do? When clearly I've done it before and have the ability.

First you say that we don't have the mindset, and then when I claim I believe I do, you go and shoot it down as being egotistical. So if we're arguing by your rules I can't win. But it's whatever.

Like I said, if you're so situationally aware, please enter tournaments and show us what we're not doing. We both know you couldn't beat me, and I doubt you could even if you practiced your hardest/most effectively. So then how would you beat Sonic?

And if this all happens, you'd fall victim to your own questions.
 
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Trauma_and_Pain

Filthy Casual
He doesn't win everything though. He's lost many matches.

But it's because he's the best. Same reason Michael Jordan was pretty consistently the best, or Bobby Fischer, or Sarena Williams. If you're the best, you will perform the best and win the most. That seems pretty obvious.


The whole concept of "just work harder" doesn't make sense. No matter how hard you work, there are other people who can work harder than you for whatever reason. There can only be one #1.

There's also more to it than work ethic, a lot of it is physical. Dexterity, reflexes, ability to maintain composure in clutch situations, ability to focus. A person can only do so much to help these things.

There's also mathematical variance. It's possible Fox didn't deserve to win quite as many major tournaments as he did. Maybe if you run them through a simulation a thousand times, he will have lost a couple more tournaments on average.
 

The Janitor

Mop Dispensery
i agree the competition is fierce, and they are all very good, but i have seen to many of them make excuses for thier loses, first it was, "Sonic is a loser that only uses 50/50's" then it was "he only uses top characters with it all" then it moved onto, "my character has a bad matchup against his" then it was, "he uses mids to much and they are too strong" I even herd " he cheats with unfair tactics" what i was stating was fact, and just saying instead of them, learning from what they did wrong they blamed Characters, Mechanics, Sonics Skill Level, or made countless excuses instead of bettering themselfs in the areas they needed to to win. i still remember the first major sonic spoke out, everyone thought he would lose, and he said " i will win none of them can guess a 50/50 forever, eventually they will get opened up, and none of them realize it" and guess what he was right, none of them thought it was that important, they either though, Footsie space control or a handful of other tactics was more important, it just seemed he had it figured out and planned every inch of this game from the beginning before anyone did.

if yo0u remember correctly, everyone was complaining about the wrong tactics/gameplan and or character while he was focusing on what actually mattered. like when everyone said Kitana was trash, then he pulled her out of nowhere and said, "she is top tier and very good, you will see" and he was right.


All of them are very skilled and talented, they obviously did something wrong as we can see that now.
So Maybe you just figured it out, that SonicFox has the ability to see what makes the game tick and what he needs to take out of it to win tournament. Maybe it's not that he's got better reactions or is smarter, but that his unique intelligence is geared towards that and other players' mind function differently (not worse, but different) therefore giving him the advantage.

Like PL in MK9, this game suits the way SonicFox ticks (I'm not using this as an excuse people can use because if you truly are a top tier player you should aim for number 1 all day every day). Maybe the subtle changes in Injustice 2 will give rise to another King.

Bottom Line : He wins a lot, hold that. No excuse, no back seat driving, all that is a waist of time because it involves things we can never truly 100% verify. You want SonicFox to lose, HIT THE LAB BUDDY;)
 

GrimJack

Rock paper scissor specialist
Yeah because Tekken Master resetting the bracket was just magic right?
No Youph, you get what I meant wrong. Tekken Master is one hell of a player, he got the talent and the hardwork. That's why he is successful in the game.
What I meant is hardwork can only get you so far and sometime there will be someone with more natural talent can get further than you without even trying.
Basically, talent is a also a big factor and that something you cannot train or grind
 

Youphemism

Gunslinger since pre patch (sh/out to The Farmer)
No Youph, you get what I meant wrong. Tekken Master is one hell of a player, he got the talent and the hardwork. That's why he is successful in the game.
What I meant is hardwork can only get you so far and sometime there will be someone with more natural talent can get further than you without even trying.
Basically, talent is a also a big factor and that something you cannot train or grind
There's not an unlimited amount of things you can do in this game, everything can be learned at some point. Sonic just happens to have put in more effort into learning as much about as many variations as he can, that along with previous experience in multiple fighting games is why he's still winning. He doesn't just walk into a game and automatically become the best, that's ridiculous and I hope you're not actually trying to imply that. "Talent" would be a big factor if it weren't just an excuse people who aren't putting in the same effort use.
 

coolwhip

Noob
There's not an unlimited amount of things you can do in this game, everything can be learned at some point. Sonic just happens to have put in more effort into learning as much about as many variations as he can, that along with previous experience in multiple fighting games is why he's still winning. He doesn't just walk into a game and automatically become the best, that's ridiculous and I hope you're not actually trying to imply that. "Talent" would be a big factor if it weren't just an excuse people who aren't putting in the same effort use.
Talent exists though. Like, it's literally an undeniable fact. Yeah, hard work + talent is necessary in any form of competition but that's such an obvious point it's not worth debating.

But you often get two guys who put it more or less the same amount of work in anything (sports, competition, etc...), and have similar experience, and one of them will often have the other's number. In this case, it's no excuse. One guy might be marginally more talented.

Now talent when it comes to fighting games is somewhat of an abstract term and a bit vague, therefore hard to define. For instance, if you look at sports, it's really easy to see that Lionel Messi is just much more talented at football/soccer than pretty much any other player. You can put in all the hard work you want, you still won't be able to change direction as effortlessly as he does, or develop his first touch, and dribbling ability (of course, he's worked exceptionally hard, but that's a given otherwise he wouldn't be where he's at). Likewise, you look at Steph Curry or Kevin Durant and they've put in insane hours in the gym and have literally taken millions and millions of jump shots, and endured some frankly inhuman training regimens. But, your average 12 year old basketball player can practice 24 hours a day and they'll never develop Steph Curry's jumper.

Yeah, it's harder to pin point talent in fighting game as so much of the outcome depends on match-up knowledge (therefore time put in the lab), execution (which can be sharpened by simply practicing), experience, etc... And yet, we're kidding ourselves if we don't think talent has a lot to do with the ability to quickly pick up a game. Things like instincts, decision making, reactions and timing are all more or less talent related when it comes to fighting games. Yeah, you can improve them through practice but there will always be a ceiling.

Case in point: Sonic Fox won the day 0 MKX tournament, in which everyone had literally the same amount of time practicing the game. Over a year later, he's still winning. I doubt that fatal 8 win in April 2015 was due to his hard work in the two days he had with the game.

If you're seriously claiming that talent is just some "excuse," then you're kinda saying that you, Youphemism, can be as good as Daigo if you just put in the time and effort. Read that out loud, note how ridiculous it sounds, and well, yeah...
 
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Eldriken

Guest
How the hell is it not common sense yet that TALENT is a huge factor. Hard work + talent = results.

If you don't have a natural talent for something, then how can you become as good as those who do? Hard work will only take you so far until you are going to plateau. The term exists for a reason and it applies to what this very thread is about.

Other MKX players may be almost or as talented as Fox but don't put in the required amount of work. Natural talent will only take you so far in this regard, just like the aforementioned hard work. They work in tandem with one another. One without the other is only going to do you so good.

That's all there is to it. How that's even up for debate anymore is blowing my fuckin' mind.
 

coolwhip

Noob
Best example I can think of is chess.

I can't think of any form of competition that is more time consuming at the highest level. As in, I'm talking about literally 15-18 hours a day of studying games, learning opening theory, improving calculation skills, etc... And we're talking about literal geniuses with abilities beyond our comprehension.

To be a top 10 chess player in the world, your whole life has to be chess. Any super Grandmaster chess player will you, they barely have time for anything else. And yet, Garry Kasparov remained the world champion for 15 years. Was he just working harder than everyone else? That may well be the case, but that doesn't explain how he was able to pick up chess on his own, at the age of 6 and be better at the game at the age of 8 than most can be in a lifetime.

And that's a game in which both players have access to the same pieces so there's no "he wins because of his character" arguments.

Now, obviously, chess is much more complex so you could argue that some players have more mental abilities than others. But that's partially talent. Things like instincts, having the sense for a particular position, etc...

Fighting games are naturally less complex, but again, instincts, reactions, the ability to absorb knowledge, creativity, and decision making are not the same for everyone. And that's a big part of talent when it comes to fighting games.
 
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Hiyomoto

Noob
Best example I can think of is chess.

I can't think of any form of competition that is more time consuming at the highest level. As in, I'm talking about literally 15-18 hours a day of studying games, learning opening theory, improving calculation skills, etc... And we're talking about literal geniuses with abilities beyond our comprehension.

To be a top 10 chess player in the world, your whole life has to be chess. Any super Grandmaster chess player will you, they barely have time for anything else. And yet, Garry Kasparov remained the world champion for 15 years. Was he just working harder than everyone else? That may well be the case, but that doesn't explain how he was able to pick up chess on his own, at the age of 6 and be better at the game at the age of 8 than most can be in a lifetime.

And that's a game in which both players have access to the same pieces so there's no "he wins because of his character" arguments.

Now, obviously, chess is much more complex so you could argue that some players have more mental abilities than others. But that's partially talent. Things like instincts, having the sense for a particular position, etc...

Fighting games are naturally less complex, but again, instincts, reactions, the ability to absorb knowledge, creativity, and decision making are not the same for everyone. And that's a big part of talent when it comes to fighting games.
Best explanation/analogy yet to grasp how deep his skill goes to beyond practice.
 

Youphemism

Gunslinger since pre patch (sh/out to The Farmer)
Oh look, coolwhip is criticising something on TYM again *mild shock*
Talent exists though. Like, it's literally an undeniable fact. Yeah, hard work + talent is necessary in any form of competition but that's such an obvious point it's not worth debating.

But you often get two guys who put it more or less the same amount of work in anything (sports, competition, etc...), and have similar experience, and one of them will often have the other's number. In this case, it's no excuse. One guy might be marginally more talented.

Now talent when it comes to fighting games is somewhat of an abstract term and a bit vague, therefore hard to define. For instance, if you look at sports, it's really easy to see that Lionel Messi is just much more talented at football/soccer than pretty much any other player. You can put in all the hard work you want, you still won't be able to change direction as effortlessly as he does, or develop his first touch, and dribbling ability (of course, he's worked exceptionally hard, but that's a given otherwise he wouldn't be where he's at). Likewise, you look at Steph Curry or Kevin Durant and they've put in insane hours in the gym and have literally taken millions and millions of jump shots, and endured some frankly inhuman training regimens. But, your average 12 year old basketball player can practice 24 hours a day and they'll never develop Steph Curry's jumper.

Yeah, it's harder to pin point talent in fighting game as so much of the outcome depends on match-up knowledge (therefore time put in the lab), execution (which can be sharpened by simply practicing), experience, etc... And yet, we're kidding ourselves if we don't think talent has a lot to do with the ability to quickly pick up a game. Things like instincts, decision making, reactions and timing are all more or less talent related when it comes to fighting games. Yeah, you can improve them through practice but there will always be a ceiling.

Case in point: Sonic Fox won the day 0 MKX tournament, in which everyone had literally the same amount of time practicing the game. Over a year later, he's still winning. I doubt that fatal 8 win in April 2015 was due to his hard work in the two days he had with the game.

If you're seriously claiming that talent is just some "excuse," then you're kinda saying that you, Youphemism, can be as good as Daigo if you just put in the time and effort. Read that out loud, note how ridiculous it sounds, and well, yeah...
Please go ahead and prove this "undeniable fact" with evidence besides because you said so. In the meantime have a read at this: http://www.npr.org/sections/ed/2016/06/01/479335421/practice-makes-possible-what-we-learn-by-studying-amazing-kids

This Fatal 8 example is also terrible because it's based on the assumption that all of them put in the same effort and labbed the same things. Unless you can actually prove they all looked at/labbed the same things and practiced the same things then that example barely proves anything. Also
I doubt that fatal 8 win in April 2015 was due to his hard work in the two days he had with the game.
Really? You're really implying that him winning wasn't because he put in the effort? Just this magical "talent" which totally isn't just a developed understanding of fighting games from having experience in multiple previous ones. Oh boy.

How ridiculous to say that anyone can do something they want to do if they put in enough time, dedication and practice. Boy all those people who achieve their dreams by doing just that are so ridiculous right? Noone can live up to these inhuman people with this unachievable "talent". I can admit I don't put in enough time/effort/practice, I play once a week at my local. I do well there but I know have things to improve on if I even want to be one of the best in the UK never mind in the world, just like anyone else. If I played it all the time and actually put in the effort and studied what makes a top fighting game player then, believe it or not, yes maybe years from now I could be up there. You could be up there. Buffalo could be up there. z-azeez could be up there. Sorry you just want to use excuses to make it seem like the highest level is unachievable.
...as opposed to all those other constant top 8 placers, right? Yet for the most part, Sonic Fox is beating them pretty regularly.
Reach further man, reach further. I didn't say other top players hadn't been in the lab for more than 5 minutes, I'm just saying they have been in the lab for more than 5 minutes. I could've said 100 minutes, 1000, 100000. Doesn't matter because the number of minutes isn't the point.
 

coolwhip

Noob
Oh look, coolwhip is criticising something on TYM again *mild shock*

.
I'm arguing with someone who confuses disagreement for criticism. So... yeah. I mean, don't get me wrong, I often criticize you for being unbearable, a sentiment shared by many here, but in this thread, I merely responded to your post.

A post where you're denying the existence of talent. I mean, seriously, why even bother with the rest?

I love how you ignored the bulk of the post that disproves your points.
 

coolwhip

Noob
For the record, the argument of Sonic Fox labbing isn't without its merits. I mean, he's better with his 5th alt than some character "specialists" are with their main character. Guys who deem their characters unplayable.

But this doesn't explain why he's better than those who put in the time, lab extensively, etc...
 
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