this natural talent you are referring to sounds like physical advantages that may influence better results. The beauty of video games is the lack of physical advantages one can have over the other.
I just wanted to point out that the example used is not only wrong, but completely disproves your point. M2K does put in more work than anyone else in the smash community, and at the time he came onto the scene he was winning everything. But he actually ended up playing too perfect, which made way for players like Mango(who is probably the closest smash equivalent of Fox) to beat him by doing stuff that was crazy and unoptimal. You can practice for thousands of hours but nothing can prepare you for crazy playstyles and amazing reads/mind games(which Fox has in spades).
Mew2king has beaten mango plenty of times. Even some 4 stocks in there. And saying he puts in more work than anyone is simply not true. The game has evolved and he doesn't put in as much work anymore because he also competes in smash 4 now. What's impressive is that he does pretty well in both. He's not the best in either but he does really good in both. Mango puts in work. More work than m2k now. He studied m2k, he studies everyone, and he found a flaw in m2k's play style. I fail to see how any of this disproves my point. I feel it does the opposite.
Preparing for crazy playstyles prepare you for crazy playstyles.
If you've watched Fox play you know what I'm talking about. There's no way you could argue that doing a random EX slide with Erron is optimal, but Fox pulls it off even against top players. It's stupid to do but he does it anyway because he knows people don't expect it. The problem with preparing for crazy playstyles is that crazy players don't have patterns. Especially in a 50/50 heavy game like MKX, there's no way you can stop Fox from playing his game for that long before he switches it up. Sometimes the stupid stuff doesn't work out but it works more often then not. This is the exact problem M2K had, he tried to play as optimal as possible and expected his opponent to do so as well, which was his downfall(for a while, obviously he learned to deal with it).
Well yeah its not like he was never heard from again, my point was for the first year or two they played Mango destroyed him everytime because M2K expected him to play optimally and he never did. Once he realized Mango's style he adapted and didn't get so flustered. Saying he put in more work at the time is absolutely true. He admitted himself that he practiced for thousands of hours, putting together frame data and hitboxes for every move for every character. He doesn't put in much work anymore but I wasn't talking about anymore, obviously Mango is going to beat him now that he;s the one focusing on melee. I also never said Mango doesn;t put in work, that's absurd.
Other people can work for us. Marth's don't have to put as much work in as Ken did because he already put in some of the work for them. They don't have to discover the ken combo because he already did that for example. Mango is a newer player than m2k. A lot of that time m2k put in isn't practical anymore. The game evolved becoming a whole new beast. I'm extremely confused on what you are actually getting at. You say that mango not putting work in is absurd. Agreed. And you CAN'T be saying that mango is just smarter than m2k because m2k has beaten mango multiple times and won countless tournaments. So what is even your point?
Let's just forget about the melee example because you are missing the point entirely.
You've already answered your own question. Some agree, some don't. I think we can leave it at that. This is the most repetitive thread I've seen..
Why? Melee is the oldest game around. It has a rich history to learn from. What you say is just not true no matter how many times you say it. Just because you keep saying it doesn't make it true. Mango's playstyle that you compliment so much, the playstyle which won him evo 2014, made him look like a buster in 2015. He barely won anything and if he went to a tournament and armada or leffen was there, no one expected him to win. It's only this year that he started coming back because he TRAINED, and STUDIED, and WORKED HARD to improve himself in the new metagame. He didn't say "armada and leffen just cant be beat because they possess skills that I don't", neither did hungry box. This isn't a theory by the way. This actually what they did. They studied and worked hard to improve themselves over armada and they did it after armada dominated for a good year. And it's not like armada didn't want to win this year and didn't care about evo 2016 and got lazy. He cried after he lost. Literally cried and tweeted that his dreams had been crushed. Working hard just is the path to victory and claiming that your opponent is just too god like to beat is an excuse.
You're just ignoring all my arguments and making yourself look like a moron. If you want to have an actual discussion about this then do me a favor and actually discuss. You come on here and act like no one is working or training to beat Fox when literally everyone is. He's the GOAT right now because no one can match him in adaptation or clutch factor. No one is saying he will always be unbeatable, and no top player has stopped working toward beating him, what people are telling you is it isn't as simple as sitting in the lab for hours on end. You could have all the knowledge in the world but until you can adapt and keep up with Fox's mind games knowledge and hard work doesn't matter.
Maybe its because your arguments contradict any common sense. Saying that doing stupid stuff is good because its TEH UNPREDICTABLE just highlights mess in your head. If something is effective then it is not stupid. If something is done and it works consistantly there is a reason to it (usually mathmatical, sometimes its just player knowledge - result of watching videos of that player or playing versus with him). You failing to see that reason naturally turn out spamming "talent" button. which I've already explained above.
This is pretty tame, but mind you we just had an EVO where tekkenmaster pushed Sonicfox to his limit, and the fact that when YOMI was still active in the late spring to the late Summer that Sonic fox was having competition with the likes of MIT, DJT, Slayer, and Foreverking.
This...is insulting. If you were to ask any top player going to these tournaments (Slayer, Foxy, Scar, Hayatei...list goes on) then of course they want to get better and win. It may not come off that way to you, but I couldn't imagine walking up to Foxy and saying "How come you can't beat Sonic fox? You don't want to be better?"
Yes, this is insulting as well. "Slacking" is a pretty strong term, considering a lot of these top players practice day in and day out to compete. It comes off as if they're lazy. And exactly who are these slackers? Foxy? Scar? Hayatei? Wound cowboy? Which of these players do you feel exactly are slacking and why? Unless you know how these players are training for Sonicfox, how can you for sure know that they are slacking?
To be honest these are just assumptions, you've no idea if they're actually labbing what they should be or putting the same amount of time into learning so many variations. If they were really working as hard as possible they would beat him at least once but they continue to lose to the same stuff over and over. People are still getting hit by gimmicks like Erron's 11B3~coin which is full combo punishable, if people were really putting in the work and making sure they're conditioning their opponents to not use gimmicks (by punishing them) that shouldn't even be an option. As for that Fatal 8 example people seem to be using as credible evidence, that also is based on the assumption that everyone worked just as hard when it's more probable that they just worked on their one character/variation while Sonic looked through multiple characters to find one he wanted to play and learned others in the process. A lot of people seem to play by feel sometimes then lab after. Sonic said he was going to play Mileena then didn't because he found her too unsafe, and he changed because he'd looked at multiple other characters before deciding on Erron.
1. You ask me how I lost.
Hey Foxy. I think we've seen you lose to Sonic a number of times. Coming from your answer it seems he just got lucky and had a better character? Do you think Mileena has a bad MU vs Alien? Do you think it was really just luck on Sonic Fox part and either of you had equal chances to win in those encounters?
I never think I'm gonna lose to anybody I sit down and play, you cant do that or you've probably already lost anyway.
I no for sure that neither Tekken Master, WoundCowboy, or myself have any 'fear' of sonic fox.
I can't be in your skin, so I don't know, but when I see people sitting next to Sonic, most of the times their faces and body language speak for themselves xD
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It's not mentality, it's common sense. In melee we call what you're doing a john. Except we have the self awareness to know when we are doing it and don't take it seriously. I guess I shouldn't of had expected you to give me a sober answer to my question. You are a top player who's answer is going to be polluted by his ego, so I guess this was to be expected. Anyway, yeah, I agree, what could of been a constructive thread has become riddled with confusion and people simply not listening clearly enough and muddying the waters. Better luck next time I guess.
