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General/Other - Sub-Zero CRYOMANCER CHANGES

Jeffrey Wolf

YouTube: Jeffrey B Wolf
Oh, I agree. Cryo and Unbreakable could both use a better footsie string. However, in Cryo, F12 has a lot more utility than I expected it to have and you can play some footsies with it. If it was slightly tweaked, or he got a different footsie string, man, that would be sweet.
 

CrazyFingers

The Power of Lame Compels You
The whole reason I want EX Hammer to be faster is because it's so slow that can be broken easier than most armored moves. Also, giving 111 and F12 plus frames would help him get his mids out without getting out classed by the 9frame mids we have running around here. Also, 10 F4 is just something Subby needs in general I feel.
 

Gilbagz

Joker here~
F12 is NOT a good footsie tool... the total speed of whiffing the first hit to connect the second one is about the same than regular hammer, slower in fact IIRC (and you're getting punished if you go around throwing 30+ frames moves for footsies when everyone and their mother has a long reach move of 15 frames or faster. F12 is good after jump ins but not for footsies. And yeah I know the uppercut has sword range but that thing is unsafe and can't lead into a combo.

Cryo needs a string starting with the sword (there is no point on having sword reach if it's going to come slower than doing a quick run and then press another button) and most of SZs toolset is built to compensate for the fact that GM will have the klone protecting him, so Cryo (and UB) needs a tool to fight and defend himself without the klone.

A 16 frames sword starter (F122 without the first hit) wouldn't even be such a crazy tool when you look at the rest of the cast, but it would be good enough for the variation to get into the fight.

Give him that and maybe make the Air Hammer a tool you want to use instead of your worse option and the variation is pretty much set, no need of faster hammers, OH 111 or meterless vortex at all (none of those things solve his main problems anyway).
i guess compared to ronin stuff it isnt that bad
i just dont want to push this character into ridiculous territory
he's on the edge of being insane right now

5050s
a very decent footsie tool set
great mobility
great defensive tools

just counted frames on f12 start up
in total its 34 right now
buffing the start up the f1 to 10f would push it 29f (which isnt too bad considering in injustice batman b3 was over 30f and people still used it in neutral, in saying that though injustice didnt have as many long ranged mids)
16f disjointed hitbox seems fine in comparison to ronin b1 which is the same but 11f and has 3 hits to hc while still being staggerable. But at the same time ronin doesnt have subs defensive options or safety in ex burst. Ex burst is punishable but with its pushback its insanely hard for some characters.

Just saying I think we need to be careful with how we buff this character.
 

Lokheit

Noob
i guess compared to ronin stuff it isnt that bad
i just dont want to push this character into ridiculous territory
he's on the edge of being insane right now

5050s
a very decent footsie tool set
great mobility
great defensive tools

just counted frames on f12 start up
in total its 34 right now
buffing the start up the f1 to 10f would push it 29f (which isnt too bad considering in injustice batman b3 was over 30f and people still used it in neutral, in saying that though injustice didnt have as many long ranged mids)
16f disjointed hitbox seems fine in comparison to ronin b1 which is the same but 11f and has 3 hits to hc while still being staggerable. But at the same time ronin doesnt have subs defensive options or safety in ex burst. Ex burst is punishable but with its pushback its insanely hard for some characters.

Just saying I think we need to be careful with how we buff this character.
"5050s" The fact that he has OHs and Lows doesn't make him a 5050 character, both options are unsafe and midscreen against males he needs meter to combo from lows. I know you've compared him with Cutthroat Kano but he is multiple tiers below Kano.

"a very decent footsie tool set" no, just nope, the neutral in this game is brutal, I can't take the Batman in injustice argument (and he's even slower than his move was). He needs the F12 second hit as a starting one. 16 frames wouldn't even be considered too fast compared with MANY characters tools. F4 is the only decent one and it lacks both the speed and the reach that many safe footsie moves have in this game. The slide is absolutely amazing against projectiles but he can't counter good reach and neutral with the moves he has.

"great mobility" completly agree, probably the best non teleporter in terms of mobility (second after CSZ appeared) and better than many teleporters, he eats characters without low projectiles and decent neutral because how well he maneuvers against high and mid projectiles.

"great defensive tools" the burst is decent but as a whole the defensive tools are lacking, specially when he has no meter available (the same meter he needs to spend to combo from lows).

He's in a spot where simply it's better to pick a character that is more efficient at the same role, and even for the match ups where he can shine, there are better options.

For a character that is soooo honest and predictable you'd expect him to at least be average on the basic stuff but he's below average with no dirty tricks to save his life.
 
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Gilbagz

Joker here~
"5050s" The fact that he has OHs and Lows doesn't make him a 5050 character, both options are unsafe and midscreen against males he needs meter to combo from lows. I know you've compared him with Cutthroat Kano but he is multiple tiers below Kano.

"a very decent footsie tool set" no, just nope, the neutral in this game is brutal, I can't take the Batman in injustice argument (and he's even slower than his move was). He needs the F12 second hit as a starting one. 16 frames wouldn't even be considered too fast compared with MANY characters tools. F4 is the only decent one and it lacks both the speed and the reach that many safe footsie moves have in this game. The slide is absolutely amazing against projectiles but he can't counter good reach and neutral with the moves he has.

"great mobility" completly agree, probably the best non teleporter in terms of mobility (second after CSZ appeared) and better than many teleporters, he eats characters without low projectiles and decent neutral because how well he maneuvers against high and mid projectiles.

"great defensive tools" the burst is decent but as a whole the defensive tools are lacking, specially when he has no meter available (the same meter he needs to spend to combo from lows).

He's in a spot where simply it's better to pick a character that is more efficient at the same role, and even for the match ups where he can shine, there are better options.

For a character that is soooo honest and predictable you'd expect him to at least be average on the basic stuff but he's below average with no dirty tricks to save his life.
Probably should have expanded on what i meant on those points.
I meant he has access to 5050s. That doesnt mean he has to rely on them. He is far from a 5050 character. Like you said they are both punishable and the low option requires bar. I was just stating he has access to them which gives him a decent comeback factor.

I gotta disagree with his footsie toolset. They arent cassie level, but between b12, f42, d4 and f122 he has a very good system. B12 for reaction retreating whiff punishes. F42 for more read based punishes and general approach. D4 as a solid zoning tool. F122 to poke with once you have them respecting your defensive footsie game. @Nuovo_Cabjoy can attest to this. His footsie game isnt the greatest, but its far from bad.

Defensive wise, yes its not your traditional defence with fast pokes. But he has a ridiculous backdash and a mostly safe armoured launching reversal. With no bar yes he struggles and you need to hard read a gap to escape pressure.

Probably just going to have to agree to disagree here with some of these points. Should be going evo next year, so we'll see how it goes assuming mkx is still there.

Also just in case, i mean no disrespect with any of these comments. You're one of the only other people who actually understands cryo. The only diff between me and you is how we sell his toolset. Obviously i'm a bit more optimistic about how his toolset sits in the grand scheme of things.
 

STRYKIE

Are ya' ready for MK11 kids?!
Question for Cryo mains (or at least people that have been playing him seriously since before it got any buffs)

When pre-patch hammer was 36 frames, did F4 still jail into it on block or not? I have an interesting idea for a change but I'd like to double check over some info first.
 

Dankster Morgan

It is better this way
Question for Cryo mains (or at least people that have been playing him seriously since before it got any buffs)

When pre-patch hammer was 36 frames, did F4 still jail into it on block or not? I have an interesting idea for a change but I'd like to double check over some info first.
I'd swear it didn't but I can't be too sure.
 

AGRxShiroKuma

The White Bear
Off the top of my head I want him to use his sword for his NJP and maybe give him a faster starting D2 because the range on it is great just too slow in my opinion.
 
Off the top of my head I want him to use his sword for his NJP and maybe give him a faster starting D2 because the range on it is great just too slow in my opinion.
Totally agree, what about faster ice balls, hammer and b33 and give a basic kombo or two with positive block adv.
 

AGRxShiroKuma

The White Bear
I wouldn't mind a faster ice ball. I also wouldn't mind a faster EX ice ball to make its projectile cancelling effect more viable. I usually get lucky when I try to throw my EX ice ball through another projectile.
 
111 last hit being an OH won't fix much... I mean, it makes sense with the animation and it would allow you to mix it with Slide, but that's not really Cryo's problem. If it happens it's a good thing but I wouldn't prioritize it.

Additional armor on hammer would help dealing with pressure but I don't think something like that will happen honestly. Not a priority either as EX Burst is still a good option against faster moves, it won't lead to as much damage but it's a tool.

IMO (and I know I'm starting to sound like a broken record saying the same thing for months) Cryo's main problem is that it's a variation that is based on punishing... without tools to create punishing opportunities and a very linear, honest and predictable game.

Because variationless Sub-Zero overcompensates so much for GM having the klone with all of its utility and control, Cryo suffers a lot against characters with decent to good neutral and pressure (if good at both, it gets painful).

Main 2 things I'd like to see, so at least opponents need to respect him would be (if possible both, at least one):

- F122 last 2 hits (the sword ones) becoming a new string (F22 is available). Very simple change and they created new strings for characters like Kenshi recycling parts of existing strings, so it's perfectly viable.

With this Cryo gets a long range safe check/starter at a decent speed: SZs long range moves are on the second hit of his strings in general, making them really slow and not viable for neutral and footsies at all. It might not be on the level of some other characters in that department, but at least it would be something that the opponent needs to be aware of when approaching you.

- Air Hammer changes:

* Remove the armor breaking part. It only has a purpose in the corner, the reward for landing it isn't a big deal and there are more scenarios where you lose by using it. After your typical Hammer finisher in the corner NJP, NJK and even empty jump are all preferable options against someone that knows what he's doing so I couldn't care less about the armor breaking part because it hardly comes into play. I also want to tone the move down a bit in order to apply the other change.

* Make Air Hammer a full screen ground pound (unblockable full screen ground based attack) like other similar moves. With enough skill, instant air hammer would allow you to trick opponents and every now and then force a bad jump that you could punish with a slide o certain combos depending on the situation.

With this change, Air Hammer now becomes a part of Cryo's toolset rather than a gimmick filler move (something that a variation exclusive shouldn't be IMHO) with a completly different role and again, it helps with the "respect Cryo" department. With Air Hammer being so slow it isn't like it would be too powerful, but at least it would be a serviceable tool.

I think with both changes combined, Cryo still wouldn't be a top dog by a longshot, but at least he would be able to deal with some of his weaknesses and while pressure would still be problematic and you should keep your meter to get out of it, approaching Cryo to start that pressure wouldn't be such an easy cake anymore.
I really like the Air Hammer being a full screen ground pound move. That would be awesome. It would be awesome if the most instant version of the Air Hammer would be a free hit after the Frozen Hammer. Kinda like what Tremor used to do or still does Idk. Because Cryo has a real hard time closing out rounds unless you just cash out on damage and hope it kills him.