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Why does Sonic Fox win everything?

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CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
But thing is, FGs are not that compilcated and are rather simple to the brain to process. Its mostly a matter of memory and reaction, and unlike top stuff like machine learning/rocket science anyone can learn it in a matter of month. All it takes to master is repetition.
Then everybody would be a fighting game master, but not everyone is.

There's plenty of repetition going on around here, but true mastery requires something else. At the end of the day you are still fighting your opponents, not the game.
 
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PND_Ketchup

"More deadly than the dawn"
Facts don't care about your feelings.
He actually made it out of his pool in winners, where he then lost to Kazunoko.

He also competed in a tournament the day before EVO began when he defeated Nuki's Chun, Phenom's Necalli and was one round from beating both Knuckledu and Poongko who got 1st and 2nd.

You only say "Results not found" because you couldn't find him in the top 32 of the SRK results thread.

You will also notice that Fox never actually said he was going to wreck Capcom players at their own game, as a fan of all things fighting game related, he naturally picked up SFV like everyone else and competes because he loves to. If he does well, cool, if not, cool. That is his SFV mentality.

It's very easy to be a dude online that blindly hates because they only watch online and has never met or spoken to him.
 
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Belial

Noob
Then everybody would be a fighting game master, but not everyone is.

There's plenty of repetition going on around here, but true mastery requires something else. At the end of the day you are still fighting your opponents, not the game.
by master I was reffering to becoming good at something. As in all simple tasks effort is the key to becoming good. You could say someone has a talent for, say, mopping the floor, but in fact there is little talent involved. But of course if you run "mop the floor" competition some people will always be better. Even a mopping prodigy may rise. Still the less complicated task is, the less talent impacts it.

There are things that do impact FG mastery more. Such as diligence. I know a lot of people who find practice mode "boring".

I made an experiment actually. I told a small group of newer players at local arcade to practice combo until they get 10 in a row w/o dropping anything. When I returned 20 minutes later not a single one has been practicing combos. They found it boring. Even if they agreed that it is important to never drop your combos they didnt actually put effort towards becoming a better player when it contradicted their definition of having fun.
 
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CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
by master I was reffering to becoming good at something. As in all simple tasks effort is the key to becoming good. You could say someone has a talent for, say, mopping the floor, but in fact there is little talent involved. But of course if you run "mop the floor" competition some people will always be better. Even a mopping prodigy may rise. Still the less complicated task is, the less talent impacts it.

There are things that do impact FG mastery more. Such as diligence. I know a lot of people who find practice mode "boring".

I made an experiment actually. I told a small group of newer players at local arcade to practice combo until they get 10 in a row w/o dropping anything. When I returned 20 minutes later not a single one has been practicing combos. They found it boring. Even if they agreed that it is important to never drop your combos they didnt actually put effort towards becoming a better player when it contradicted their definition of having fun.
Yeah, I guess I wouldn't equate being good to knowing the moves and combos. Just like I wouldn't say you were 'good' at chess just because you knew how to move the pieces.

That's just the start of a whole journey toward becoming 'good', which inevitably is going to involve really studying how other players play the game, make decisions, and react to things.

Someone who constantly drops combos but has an advanced understanding of what their opponent will or might do, is going to mop the floor with the guy who's repeated every combo and move until perfection, but doesn't understand the complexities of playing other players.
 
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Belial

Noob
Yeah, I guess I wouldn't equate being good to knowing the moves and combos. Just like I wouldn't say you were 'good' at chess just because you knew how to move the pieces.

That's just the start of a whole journey toward becoming 'good', which inevitably is going to involve really studying how other players play the game, make decisions, and react to things.

Someone who constantly drops combos but has an advanced understanding of what their opponent will or might do, is going to mop the floor with the guy who's repeated every combo and move until perfection, but doesn't understand the more complex aspects of playing other players.
If you break it down its actually a matter of memory and reaction. You need to be able to recognize something (move, pattern, situation) and then make a link to your memory pool that processes the decision (this player loves WKA/This move is not safe/This combo will be dropped b/c of bounce height etc etc), the more links you create the better you will become. Creating this links is way more of a patience thing than actual research (a reason why theory fighters almost never accomplish anything). For the brain it is a routine procedure of programming. Which sort of just lead me to an idea that younger age could actually be an advantage for playing FGs, lol.
 

ChoseDeath

Seriously Casual Player.
He actually made it out of his pool in winners, where he then lost to Kazunoko.

He also competed in a tournament the day before EVO began when he defeated Nuki's Chun, Phenom's Necalli and was one round from beating both Knuckledu and Poongko who got 1st and 2nd.

You only say "Results not found" because you couldn't find him in the top 32 of the SRK results thread.

You will also notice that Fox never actually said he was going to wreck Capcom players at their own game, as a fan of all things fighting game related, he naturally picked up SFV like everyone else and competes because he loves to. If he does well, cool, if not, cool. That is his SFV mentality.

It's very easy to be a dude online that blindly hates because they only watches online and has never met or spoken to him.
I think it has more to do with him being a piece of shit. That's what he does, he goes to threads and just talks shit. He got called out on doing the same thing on some Smash boards. Thank you for finding the time to respond calmly and logically, but I fear he's just a tool. I mean troll. But mostly tool.
 

24K

Noob
Actually there is tons that carry over from real martial arts. As somebody who does both and has a group of friends who do both it is very evident to me.

True there is the real physicality of it that has nothing to do with gaming. But the mentality side is all the same. And its how you apply the mentality to gaming is what I was talking about. Repetition is important. And making those links is what you need to do. But the point was that breaking out of just using the stuff you have learned via repetition and making up a plan as you are playing/fighting is what sets you apart from those who have just learned how to react to a given situation.

Reading your opponent is important. But putting them in a situation where you take control is important in real martial arts and in gaming.

Simple example everybody learns early on when starting fighting games:

In Street Fighter, you throw out a fireball. Your opponent has different ways to react to it. And you have now put them in the position to have to do something about it. The general outcome you would be looking for as a new player is for them to jump over the fireball. Which puts you in the position to DP. You have set up a situation that is beneficial to you. Granted its a simple example and people learn to deal with it, but the point is still the same.

In muay thai a common set up you find people doing is fainting a jab getting the opponent to block. Then following up with the jab. And then repeating until they stop blocking for the faint and only block when the real jab comes. They are running on reaction. The person attacking would then do something like throw a real jab first which the opponent then wasn't expecting and they flinch block it instead of consciously blocking. That breaks rhythm. After that jab the attacker would follow up immediately with an upper cut to come straight up between the flinched arms, or a downward elbow. And the land so frequently, due to the mental state of the opponent being rocked. This is something you can see happening all the way up through from decent novice fighters to the pros.

Its all the same. Get somebodies brain to break from the cycle it is in during a game and you have the upper hand. Push them from that point and you gain domination.
 

A F0xy Grampa

Problem X Promotions
Idk. The answer Foxy gave me earlier on why he lost at evo was extremely vague and disappointing. He blamed his losses on alien, I guess implying that the character is broken and just can't be beat. And he blamed it on "bad guessing" . But the game is not just a guessing game, or else sonic fox wouldn't win consistently. So I didn't find that to be a satisfying excuse. And he blamed his losses on "just generally losing" , which really doesn't tell you anything. I really don't know what that means. But maybe he just isn't great at analyzing matches and what goes wrong. idk. Like I said, it was pretty vague.
Go back, watch my matches, and tell me dropping combos doesnt kill you in this game.
Same applies to getting aliened, there is no 'knowing the matchup' when every button is a 5050.

You can only analyse a match to a certain degree, if you get hit by a 5050 in a bad situation, thats not something you could just learn to deal with, you gotta guess.

To say I dont analyse matches well is a pretty dumb statement. You honestly think people get good without evaluation?
 
Go back, watch my matches, and tell me dropping combos doesnt kill you in this game.
Same applies to getting aliened, there is no 'knowing the matchup' when every button is a 5050.

You can only analyse a match to a certain degree, if you get hit by a 5050 in a bad situation, thats not something you could just learn to deal with, you gotta guess.

To say I dont analyse matches well is a pretty dumb statement. You honestly think people get good without evaluation?
Why is 80% of people on tym so thin skinned? Ofcourse dropping combos gets you killed. Do you think that I think dropping combos wins you games some how? Sonic Fox doesn't make that excuse though. He just goes and wins. That's obviously a personal problem you hve that you need to fix. Something you need to practice.

So you are obviously saying alien isn't fair? Well saying Kabal isn't fair in mk9 was no excuse to lose back then and wasn't he more broken? He had safe 50/50s . I'm just saying that's not a real excuse a top player should make for losing. I can't see sonic fox making that excuse, just like I wasn't seeing top players like cd jr or PL making tht excuse in mk9 . They won despite a broken character being in the game.

The winner of melee's Evo openly admits he can't analyze matches himself and needs his friend to do it for him. Why does everyone take everything I say as an insult? Your answer to my question earlier was vague which made me think that MAYBE you weren't good at analyzing things. The whole point of this thread was to try to figure out why the other top players aren't winning nearly as much as sonic fox. I was trying to get an answer out of you , one of the top players, to see what the problems were. I thought that you guys just needed to work on some things and practice more. But apparantly no, that's not the case. Sonic Fox just keeps beating everyone either because he was just born with a better brain (which is what most people seem to be saying) or magic from the elder gods.
 
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Eldriken

Guest
I see the butthurt mods are just gonna keep on censoring me because they can't handle the truth. Its ok for everyone to talk shit about me but Its not ok for me to promptly respond or retaliate in anyway. I guess thats how the NRS community does. No wonder SFV and capcom is on the raise and NRS is on the decline. Get used to staying in 2nd place.

We have a game that requires actual skill that don't rely on gimmicks and button mashing =/

Im out.
Maybe it's because you're going about it the wrong way? No one should be talking shit about anything.

You wouldn't get "censored" (lol, omfg. Really?) if you actually responded accordingly.
 
If you can't win an argument. Censor them. Typical.


I see the butthurt mods are just gonna keep on censoring me because they can't handle the truth. Its ok for everyone to talk shit about me but Its not ok for me to promptly respond or retaliate in anyway. I guess thats how the NRS community does. No wonder SFV and capcom is on the raise and NRS is on the decline. Get used to staying in 2nd place.

We have a game that requires actual skill that don't rely on gimmicks and button mashing =/

Im out.
Seriously, if you want to hurt someone let them talk. This guy was hurting himself and making himself look extremely bad and losing what little credibility he had. Yes, this guy is an asshole. Don't keep people from knowing that by censoring him. When you do that you start to make yourself look like the bad guys instead.
 
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Eldriken

Guest
Seriously, if you want to hurt someone let them talk. This guy was hurting himself and making himself look extremely bad and losing what little credibility he had. Yes, this guy is an asshole. Don't keep people from knowing that by censoring him. When you do that you start to make yourself look like the bad guys instead.
Look like the bad guy in whose eyes? His? Big deal. Why would we look like the "bad guys" to anyone else other than him? There's nothing wrong with making sure other people don't have to read the nonsense that he posts the majority of the time, especially if it will prevent further arguing and/or off-topic posts.

Also, he's hanging himself by posting anyway. Let us deal with "censoring" (seriously, stop that...) him.
 
Look like the bad guy in whose eyes? His? Big deal. Why would we look like the "bad guys" to anyone else other than him?

Also, he's hanging himself by posting anyway. You let us deal with "censoring" (seriously, stop that...) him.
Why would you look like the bad guys? Who knows now, most people in this thread can't even begin to understand the conversation because you censored him. I don't know why you're putting the word "censoring" in quotation marks when what you did falls under that definition perfectly. Whatever made that guy an asshole is now deleted and no one is going to understand the context now. The real problem was people responding to him and contributing to a pointless and hateful conversation. If they would of just ignored him, it wouldn't of even happened.
 
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Eldriken

Guest
Why would you look like the bad guys? Who knows now, most people in this thread can't even begin to understand the conversation because you censored him. I don't know why you're putting the word "censoring" in quotation marks when what you did falls under that definition perfectly. Whatever made that guy an asshole is now deleted and no one is going to understand the context now. The real problem was people responding to him and contributing to a pointless and hateful conversation. If they would of just ignored him, it wouldn't of even happened.
I'm censoring him because his posts aren't following the rules of these forums in some of his posts? Okay.

People can see how much of an annoyance he is if he decides to post something that isn't off-topic, bashing other games that aren't developed by Capcom or wording it just a -little- better.
 
I'm censoring him because his posts aren't following the rules of these forums in some of his posts? Okay.

People can see how much of an annoyance he is if he decides to post something that isn't off-topic, bashing other games that aren't developed by Capcom or wording it just a -little- better.
Well as someone who unintentionally offends people, I'm sympathetic to people who get censored. It's a matter of principle to me. I don't believe censorship is right. I mean this thread wouldn't be possible on a lot of other websites. The moment someone was offended, especially if it was a moderator, this thread would of been deleted even though I'm not saying anything that offensive. In my mind I'm trying to start a constructive conversation and the things I'm saying, to me, are simply common sense. A lot of people in here don't see it that way and think I'm attacking players under sonic fox but I'm not doing that at all.

I think there is a line, but he definitely didn't cross it. He was calling out sonic fox for losing bad in a capcom game. The name of the thread is "Why does Sonic Fox win everything?". He obviously took it too literally and was pointing out that he doesn't win everything. It wasn't off topic. There was no need to censor him for the things he said. As I said before, the real problem was people fueling the flames.

As I said, there is a line. If he would of came in here and said "You know why I hate sonic fox? Because he's black! Why do nrs games keep letting black people win their tournaments???". A post like that would have to go. We can't have tym turning into a kkk website. But he wasn't saying anything remotely close to that controversial. So ultimately what I think you did was wrong.
 
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Eldriken

Guest
Well as someone who unintentionally offends people, I'm sympathetic to people who get censored. It's a matter of principle to me. I don't believe censorship is right. I mean this thread wouldn't be possible on a lot of other websites. The moment someone was offended, especially if it was a moderator, this thread would of been deleted even though I'm not saying anything that offensive. In my mind I'm trying to start a constructive conversation and the things I'm saying, to me, are simply common sense. A lot of people in here don't see it that way and think I'm attacking players under sonic fox but I'm not doing that at all.

I think there is a line, but he definitely didn't cross it. He was calling out sonic fox for losing bad in a capcom game. The name of the thread is "Why does Sonic Fox win everything?". He obviously took it too literally and was pointing out that he doesn't win everything. It wasn't off topic. There was no need to censor him for the things he said. As I said before, the real problem was people fueling the flames.

As I said, there is a line. If he would of came in here and said "You know why I hate sonic fox? Because he's black! Why do nrs games keep letting black people win their tournaments???". A post like that would have to go. We can't have tym turning into a kkk website. But he wasn't saying anything remotely to that controversial. So ultimately what I think you did was wrong.
Did you miss the parts where he would constantly bash the ENTIRE NRS community? Constantly bashing our game(s)? Raving on and on about how Capcom is so much better (not breaking any rules and it's his opinion, but he handled it the wrong way) and all that? Trying to insult an entire community and getting moderated for it isn't censoring an effin' thing.

One wrong mistake in a post gets the whole thing removed. The blame is entirely on him. He can voice his opinion/thoughts on the matter in a better way than he did. That's all there is to it.
 
Did you miss the parts where he would constantly bash the ENTIRE NRS community? Constantly bashing our game(s)? Raving on and on about how Capcom is so much better (not breaking any rules and it's his opinion, but he handled it the wrong way) and all that? Trying to insult an entire community and getting moderated for it isn't censoring an effin' thing.

One wrong mistake in a post gets the whole thing removed. The blame is entirely on him. He can voice his opinion/thoughts on the matter in a better way than he did. That's all there is to it.
Look at the likes Foxy's response to me has. He is obviously offended by what I said and people agree that he should be offended. They think I'm attacking him. Let me tell you what I think of a foxy grampa. Some of you may not know but he discovered all of the tech for cage in mk9, my main character. He discovered a lot of tech for rain. He discovered almost all of the tech for sonya. And he created Bird Lao which most people STILL think is just a legend. Only us who played him are true believers in that amazing animal. I played forever king quite a bit in mk9 and he mained lao. He got 3rd at the last real big evo for mk9 in 2012. Well I played both their laos and foxy's was just on another level. I truly believe if foxy didn't bust his head open and didnt counter pick himself against cd jr, and went full lao, he could of really won evo 2012. So I think he is World Champion material and have praised how good he is numerous times and even praised him IN THIS THREAD.

Yet he replies to me as if I called him trash and people are liking responses like this toward me. If you were to censor me and someone tried to defend me there would be people saying "DIDN'T YOU SEE HE WAS BASHING FOXY AND OTHER TOP PLAYERS!!!!". But those are opinions. We should be allowed to have them. Even if they are the "wrong" opinions.

Edit: sorry, meant evo 2012. Holy shit it's been a long time.
 
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Belial

Noob
I actually think OP stated an interesting problem here. We have lots of top players in mkx, many of them are really professional. They pick top tier, they lab, they play more than 99.9% ppl, their skill is godlike and still sonic fox is #1 always. Think about it. There is no rotation. Normally you would see tight competition, with something like 10 ppl likely to place #1. But not for mkx. This is totally not common so it's only natural to ponder how did it come to that.
 
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Eldriken

Guest
Look at the likes Foxy's response to me has. He is obviously offended by what I said and people agree that he should be offended. They think I'm attacking him. Let me tell you what I think of a foxy grampa. Some of you may not know but he discovered all of the tech for cage in mk9, my main character. He discovered a lot of tech for rain. He discovered almost all of the tech for sonya. And he created Bird Lao which most people STILL think is just a legend. Only us who played him are true believers in that amazing animal. I played forever king quite a bit in mk9 and he mained lao. He got 3rd at the last real big evo for mk9 in 2013. Well I played both their laos and foxy's was just on another level. I truly believe if foxy didn't bust his head open and didnt counter pick himself against cd jr, and went full lao, he could of really won evo 2013. So I think he is World Champion material and have praised how good he is numerous times and even praised him IN THIS THREAD.

Yet he replies to me as if I called him trash and people are liking responses like this toward me. If you were to censor me and someone tried to defend me there would be people saying "DIDN'T YOU SEE HE WAS BASHING FOXY AND OTHER TOP PLAYERS!!!!". But those are opinions. We should be allowed to have them. Even if they are the "wrong" opinions.
But you see, you and others have been discussing this without taking it to the level he did. That's seriously all it is.
 

JerzeyReign

PSN: JerzeyReign
Better questions to ask than 'Why does Sonic win everything?':
  1. Is global warming real?
  2. Did the US fake the moon landing?
  3. Is the Earth flat or round?
  4. Is NASA hiding alien contact?
  5. What happens if Young Metro does trust you?
 

Second Saint

A man with too many names.
@Soul Bound X I think the reason you rub people the wrong way is that you are indirectly belittling the entire community by so staunchly keeping your stance that Sonic wins, not because he is exceptional in any way, but because everyone else is lazy and incapable of self reflection. I don't think you've actually stated this, but this is what your argument implies. You're super condescending, and I doubt you even realize. It's not really what you're saying, but how you're saying it. Because with the way you word things, I can come to three conclusions: you're mocking the entire community, you're oblivious as to why calling everyone bad, despite the thousands upon thousands of collective hours of effort and study, might rankle some people, or that you know and just don't care. Obviously a lot of people came to that first conclusion.

Personally, I just think you're blunt, since you seem nice enough the more I talk to you.
 

Belial

Noob
Sonic Fox just being that godlike("exceptional in any way") is actually a way more harmful statement than "everyone is just lazy". Lazyness can be overcome, but if someones GODLIKE you just have to deal with it. youll never beat this guy. HE IS GODLIKE. And why would you even waste your time going pro then?

Anyone who has ever been good at anything knows that it is never a matter of talent, but effort and/or opportunity. Talent rarely matters in real life, it is generally a fairy tale lazy people came up with so they will feel better about themselves. Keep that in mind everytime you go around waving "talent" argument.
 
@Soul Bound X I think the reason you rub people the wrong way is that you are indirectly belittling the entire community by so staunchly keeping your stance that Sonic wins, not because he is exceptional in any way, but because everyone else is lazy and incapable of self reflection. I don't think you've actually stated this, but this is what your argument implies. You're super condescending, and I doubt you even realize. It's not really what you're saying, but how you're saying it. Because with the way you word things, I can come to three conclusions: you're mocking the entire community, you're oblivious as to why calling everyone bad, despite the thousands upon thousands of collective hours of effort and study, might rankle some people, or that you know and just don't care. Obviously a lot of people came to that first conclusion.

Personally, I just think you're blunt, since you seem nice enough the more I talk to you.
The problem is people are giving me knee jerk reactions. They are also not thinking about what they are implying in what they say. There isn't a nice way to say "you're not working hard enough.". But this is a very plausible reason why sonic fox keeps winning. But when people say he just has "natural talent", what are they really saying? They are saying he is smarter than the competition, which implies the competition simply isn't smart enough to win. Saying a top player needs to practice more is a lot less offensive to me than saying "well he should give up because he just isn't smart enough." . What I'm saying isn't that controversial. If I were a top competitor in this game, let's say i'm tekken master in grand finals against sonic fox and I lose, my response to that is definitely going to be "I'm going to go home, study every detail of these matches, train hard, and come back and win." . That's the right response to have. And what does that response imply? It implies that you have work to do. You have to work at it, work harder. This what I've been saying and I don't see it as controversial.
 
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GAV

Resolution through knowledge and resolve.
He never said in an MMA style match now did he? Naaaah
They haven't said how they would do it. Point is, Floyd is intrigued. The numbers the two fighters can create makes it intriguing and its a win-win situation for everyone. So, both fighters popped off a little. Its what they both do. They're showmen. They're champions. Sonic Fox competes on a different venue, but the mindset is the same.

Sonic Fox has done surprisingly well in SFV, considering he's relatively new to the series - and considering the amount of time he has to commit to MKX to stay on top. By him picking Fang, he's telling you that if he could win at SFV - it would truly be a having his cake and eating it too experience. For how salty you already are, just be glad he didn't choose Nash or Chun Li from go.

Tell me, if MKX takes no skill - then why aren't the fighting game gods from other games coming over to dominate? The money is there to be made in MKX.
 
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Second Saint

A man with too many names.
Sonic Fox just being that godlike("exceptional in any way") is actually a way more harmful statement than "everyone is just lazy". Lazyness can be overcome, but if someones GODLIKE you just have to deal with it. youll never beat this guy. HE IS GODLIKE. And why would you even waste your time going pro then?

Anyone who has ever been good at anything knows that it is never a matter of talent, but effort and/or opportunity. Talent rarely matters in real life, it is generally a fairy tale lazy people came up with so they will feel better about themselves. Keep that in mind everytime you go around waving "talent" argument.
Equal effort does not guarantee equal results. If someone achieves greater than average results with equal effort, what would you call that? I refer to it as being talented, however, you may prefer to say he has an aptitude for the skill. I mean, we're talking about the objectively observable rate of learning. That's what talent is, nothing more. It's meaningless without effort, but does have an impact.

I never said he was godlike, or that is he is incapable of being beaten. The fact of the matter is, Sonic IS exceptional, whether through exceptional effort or not is irrelevant. Everyone is assuming that Sonic has definitely put in the most work, definitely put in the most hours of effort, training, and study. We don't know that. All we know for certain is he's had the most results.

This whole thread comes down to Nature vs Nurture in a way. People are taking sides on the issue looking for a simple easily explainable answer. Whether he is simply innately good or entirely learned to be this good. It's just not that simple though, because he's not dominant due to one factor. It's all of it. It's his hard work, talent (a thing that exists despite your beliefs), reaction times, inter/intrapersonal intelligence, and ability to remain calm under pressure.
 
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