Why does Sonic Fox win everything?

Doctor Rektangle said:

Well. Where's your EVO trophy?

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now see, when i read the OP i thought the same thing and you beat me too it.. thank you..

Dabluprint4 said:

now see, when i read the OP i thought the same thing and you beat me too it.. thank you..

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May I ask why? I am sincerely curious.

GAV said:

Foxy Grampa plays very fast. Let me illustrate...

Most players play on a slower rhythm.
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Foxy plays on a much faster rhythm.
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Extending your focus when you play that fast is difficult.

Sonic plays fast like Foxy, but somehow his focus doesn't waiver.

I'm oversimplifying, but it is how I see things. More strategy oriented players like REO and Big D play slower, but understand what happened better.

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What you said reminds me of Shoji teramoto, the best Kendoka in the world.


And Isao Machii, the fastest Iai swordsman.


Their reaction is extraordinary.

He has the best execution, that's it.

BillStickers said:

1. Superior reaction times. Sonic's reactions are somewhere in the 15 – 20 frame range, and in games like MKX, every frame you can see before your opponent is an advantage.
2. Broad fighting game experience. He plays a lot of different fighting games, which helps in breaking down characters and matchups.
3. Realtime calculation ability. Knowing all of your options in a given situation and min-maxing your attack opportunities is a necessary skill for MKX that requires both mental ability and purposeful study of all characters *as well as* the entire game. Things like health/meter management, frame data, spacing, etc. all come into play here, and IMO Sonic is great at having an acute awareness of the best move given a specific state of the game.

Why we suck:

1. Lack of a competitive mentality. The NRS community is rife with character loyalists and naive idealism that keep us from all picking up Alien or Tanya (RIP) or Mileena. It's been a problem since as long as I can remember and holds people back to this day.

NRS's role:

1. Short release cycle for NRS games. We tend to love NRS more than we love the actual content of their games, which is why we all run to buy the latest NRS titles and keep food on Ed Boon's table. That has some unfortunate side effects for meta development, mainly including 1) lack of professional gamers taking NRS games seriously and 2) lack of breathing room for meta development. Melee and UMvC3 come to mind here as games that have seen continued meta development well beyond their dev support cycles.
2. High volumes of low-quality content. NRS prioritizes new features and content volume over competitive value, which has hurt MKX's meta development in the long run. Having 3+ variations per character (the vast majority of them being competitively unviable) has created a sort of dilution of effort from the community. There's simply too much one needs to learn in this game to have a full understanding and too much clutter that takes away from the core game.

I'm sure there are more reasons but that's all I can think of for now.

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I agree but not on the why we suck. It seems like your saying we don't pick the obviously more potent character and that's why we lose. I cannot agree with that. Look at UMvc3. Jwong won and he's been using Children of the Atom no Hado for YEARS. Duel Kevin made it with fucking DEADPOOL. Loyalist are fine. Its actually encouraged...if you love to compete you shouldn't have to pick the best character to win. Hell Sonic bodied folks with KITANA and y'all call her bottom 5. Its all about awareness, mind games, cooties, a little lucky and ALOT of liquor. Boom.



Nailed it.

I bet it's being overlooked

It's always the little things that we fail to bring attention too

B. Shazzy said:

didn't you go around belittling smash in different threads? where were these gif replies to yourself then? or is it just your opinion on games are more valid than others so that gives you a free pass when you shitpost?

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bang

Soul Bound X said:

If you're reading your opponent, he is playing predictable and playing inferior to you. Which is a good indication that he is simply not on the same level and can't keep up with your higher level mind games.

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that seems to be one of the contributing factors to sonics success.. sonics mind games are on a different level than everybody else. I believe sonic even said it himself before that one of his biggest strengths is being able to see the patterns in his opponents play

I mean it's not that his opponents are bad or they don't train hard enough.. I just think sonic is a level above everybody else

and also about you saying foxy and others simply aren't training hard enough. maybe it's not that they're not training hard enough.. maybe it's they're not just training as efficiently as sonic fox.

I agree with about top players learning different characters and taking a different approach. I think another of sonics strengths is he understands the game from the perspective of multiple characters

these are all just my opinions though

GAV said:

Why doesn't Floyd Mayweather, Jr. dominate MMA? Dude must be a bum!

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Floyds not going around saying he can beat anyone in an MMA match like Sonicfox doing saying he could be a strong CONSISTENT top 8 contender in Capcom fighters now is he? Exactly. #FailReachingForAPointHarder

CUTWEST said:

Floyds not going around saying he can beat anyone in an MMA match like Sonicfox doing saying he could be a strong CONSISTENT top 8 contender in Capcom fighters now is he? Exactly. #FailReachingForAPointHarder

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ORLY?
I'm sure you have more opinions you're helpless to defend.

SF just plays to win
game balance, coinflip character loyalty is all bullcrap in competitive games
ideas like those may work online where you sit on the couch and play with a different mindset rather than the one needed to win a crazy pot at a major

there's a few old articles 'playing to win' that most of this community should go and read before signing up as cannon fodder at tournaments

in this particular moment in time, SF is simply unmatched
it may be because game knowledge or clutch factor but there's been a few playes that have been able to corner him just to lose in the end to nerves
woundcowboy's set with him at evo is the prime example

and no, in all honesty I believe that sonicfox tried his best not to pick alien in evo grand finals, maybe to try and prove a point because of the blame he sometimes gets about tier whoring
TM would've lost just the same as the others do (and just like he did in the last match) against that character

D7X said:

Right, IQ has nothing to do w/ it...
EDIT: It does but unless it's abnormally higher than everyone else, it's not significant

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It does if concepts are rudimentary to you that are misunderstood by everyone else.

If I could ask him one question, it would be what in his approach does he think gives him an advantage.

I'm not a fan of SF at all. But I'd be telling a lie if I said that the boy wasn't GREAT! We're literally witnessing HISTORY. We're viewing this young mans legacy in real time. When the time comes for him to fall off he'll fall off, but for now... Watch this greatness. Appreciate it man.

GAV said:

ORLY?

I'm sure you have more opinions you're helpless to defend.

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He never said in an MMA style match now did he? Naaaah

There's this saying: There's a time when you reach the top and where you'll fall from there. The more you reach the top, the more challenges there will be on the way.

Soul Bound X said:

EDIT . sorry, read that wrong, thought you said "couldn't be construed" . Read it wrong. My apologies. But yeah. I know it's because he doesn't put in the same work. I played f0xy a few times in mk9. He is an incredibly smart player. I know for a fact he doesn't lose because someone is smarter than him. He either just doesn't have that fire he use to have, or he needs to practice new characters, or needs to learn the match ups better etc. But it is DEFINITELY not because he isn't smart enough like a lot of people in here are saying.

Guessing and reading are two different things as well. If you're playing an opponent who is on the same level as you, you're most likely guessing. And it's less like rock, paper, scissors and more like a coin flip. A 50/50. If you're reading your opponent, he is playing predictable and playing inferior to you. Which is a good indication that he is simply not on the same level and can't keep up with your higher level mind games.

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Well, first off, never saw the original post, so if you let me have it, no harm no foul. I could've worded that better, since it's one little contraction away from being an arrogantly hostile paragraph now that I look at it, which simply wasn't my intent. I just honestly thought it odd that you didn't mention it when it seemed the most important factor to me, moreso than guessing wrong. I mean, that's why 3/5 is the tournament standard. The fact of the matter is, you're three wrong reads away from death at any point against some characters.

If you'd like to believe that reading and guessing are entirely separate, that's your choice, though I'd like to point out that reads are educated guesses based off a number of external factors which influence the choices made by the players. I understand the distinction you're trying to express, but they're clearly related. All reads are guesses, but not all guesses are reads.

My point of mentioning paper rock scissors was that to the uninitiated, it would seem a game of random chance. You have a 33% chance to win, 33% chance to lose, and 33% chance to draw. In short, a 33% chance to win and 66% chance to not win. And yet, with even worse odds than 50/50, the statistical likelihood is overcome, or at least shifted, by player skill. This obviously still applies even when there are only two variables, such as an unreactable overhead or low.

The real battle is in not putting yourself in a situation where you have to make those reads in the first place, but yes, I would consider a 50/50 a read in many cases. There are enough external factors and the human element is involved to the point where a person is capable of picking up on the thread of what another is planning, even at the very highest, and equal, levels.

For example, Scar famously beat Sonic Fox 3-2 with Hat Trick after losing 2 games during ESL. Sonic's response as I recall was that Scar was in his head. He made all the right reads because he'd noticed patterns in the first two games and switched to a character that exploited them better, not because he was suddenly on a massively higher level than the undisputed best player in the scene.

Second Saint said:

Well, first off, never saw the original post, so if you let me have it, no harm no foul. I could've worded that better, since it's one little contraction away from being an arrogantly hostile paragraph now that I look at it, which simply wasn't my intent. I just honestly thought it odd that you didn't mention it when it seemed the most important factor to me, moreso than guessing wrong. I mean, that's why 3/5 is the tournament standard. The fact of the matter is, you're three wrong reads away from death at any point against some characters.

If you'd like to believe that reading and guessing are entirely separate, that's your choice, though I'd like to point out that reads are educated guesses based off a number of external factors which influence the choices made by the players. I understand the distinction you're trying to express, but they're clearly related. All reads are guesses, but not all guesses are reads.

My point of mentioning paper rock scissors was that to the uninitiated, it would seem a game of random chance. You have a 33% chance to win, 33% chance to lose, and 33% chance to draw. In short, a 33% chance to win and 66% chance to not win. And yet, with even worse odds than 50/50, the statistical likelihood is overcome, or at least shifted, by player skill. This obviously still applies even when there are only two variables, such as an unreactable overhead or low.

The real battle is in not putting yourself in a situation where you have to make those reads in the first place, but yes, I would consider a 50/50 a read in many cases. There are enough external factors and the human element is involved to the point where a person is capable of picking up on the thread of what another is planning, even at the very highest, and equal, levels.

For example, Scar famously beat Sonic Fox 3-2 with Hat Trick after losing 2 games during ESL. Sonic's response as I recall was that Scar was in his head. He made all the right reads because he'd noticed patterns in the first two games and switched to a character that exploited them better, not because he was suddenly on a massively higher level than the undisputed best player in the scene.

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You make the distinction that guessing and reading are different, but then go back to saying they are practically the same. Why? What's to gain out of that? I'm not saying that you're wrong. Literally you are right but we need to make the distinction or else we are going to confuse ourselves and everyone else when we begin talking about it. So just for the sake of not confusing each other, reads are reads and guesses are guesses.

So Scar beat Sonic Fox that day. But we all accept that if they go to the same tournament, most of the time sonic fox is going to win. So what does that specific win over Sonic Fox say about Scar or Sonic fox? If Scar is going to lose most tournaments to Sonic Fox after that then it really doesn't say that he has drastically improved and has taken Sonic Fox's place. So it doesn't say Scar has gotten a lot better. It obviously doesn't say that Sonic Fox has gotten worse. So in hindsight all we can really say is that it was a fluke. Sonic Fox was having an off day. Most of the time Sonic Fox is the one doing the reading which does say he is the best player, as you agree he is specifically because of that fact.

Second Saint said:

For example, Scar famously beat Sonic Fox 3-2 with Hat Trick after losing 2 games during ESL. Sonic's response as I recall was that Scar was in his head. He made all the right reads because he'd noticed patterns in the first two games and switched to a character that exploited them better, not because he was suddenly on a massively higher level than the undisputed best player in the scene.

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This^

This is what all of us must do. Scar found out his weak points, and thus he took Hat Trick to exploit his weaknesses. He picked the ideal bad MU for SonicFox's character.

You need the right character to deal against your bad MUs.

I think its all been said all ready, so I don't have much to add.

But coming from a muay thai background, there is a lot that carries over.

In MT you train specific things to react in specific situations. And you can go far with it if you train harder than somebody else to react better in whatever situation arises.

But what really makes top fighters stand out is the mind set they have during the fight. If you are calmer and able to think within a match, you have the upper hand over somebody who can't. You can react to what is happening in your own way. A technique that was taught to us was to focus on the fighter not the fight. If I want a specific outcome I would put my opponent into a situation where they will be blindly reacting on instinct. Expecting that reaction I would have pre planned a counter. And I would have a move or attack to counter any unexpected reaction to my initial counter. Planning out steps within a match is more viable than having a pre match plan so many fighters tend to do. Which is why top levels players reach "YOMI". Its just no longer instinctual, and it's actually planned.

Once you have the upper hand and your opponent thinks you are reading them, which in MT its more like you are directing the fight in your favor, you can put on the pressure. And attack with more aggression. This increase in attack frequency or pace would absolutely destroy the mind of your opponent. And it would slow down reaction times and make them scared to try anything random as it feels you will be right thee to counter. Its true in high level MT as it is with any fighting sport. And its true for fighting games.

Watch the last round of the fight where SF pulled out alien. TM went on the back foot and lost. It has nothing to do with the character. As the better characters just have more tools. If you cant utilize the tools that argument is void. Fighting games are about footsies and mind games. If you can be in the right place. And do the right thing it doesn't matter who you play is. Top level Street Fighter is just the same. A broken character still has to block. And you still get your opening on them. Its just a case of you needing to be better to beat them. If TM kept his wits he may have had a chance. But he flinched and Sonic reacted.

Hell, the fact that Sonic is dominating will immediately give him the upper hand as people expecting it, and that makes them a little more defensive. The answer is speed and aggression gentlemen. I don't see Sonic loosing, when it counts, to anybody who is playing defensively and working off counters.


I am a huge Sonic fan. And I hope he makes the most of it while he can. Just enjoy the Sonic show. Its better for everybody. If there was no head figure there would be limited competition. Nobody needs to try hard to be the best if the whole pool is just taking turns to be the winner. Hes pulling in a crowed. And crowds pull in advertisers. And advertisers money makes better events and prize pools.

PS: Fuck Mayweather. He is bum. He has lost fights before but since he is on top people want to keep him on top and that's what dodgy refs and judges do. In fighting games there is a winner and a looser.

Because there's not enough Asian players in our scene.

BillStickers said:

The NRS community is rife with character loyalists and naive idealism that keep us from all picking up Mileena.

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Wait, how would picking up a garbage, honest, unsafe character like Mileena help anyone competitively Bill?

Aramonde said:

Because there's not enough Asian players in our scene.

Spoiler

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I'm an Asian and I find this offensive

Seems like people are missing the intangibles, like the fact that Sonic almost never gets flustered and doesn't mentally give up even when he's at an impasse.

We've seen him in a tough spot at big tournaments numerous times, where he could have lost -- and he always seems to just focus to a deeper level, dig in harder, and adjust.

Imo that's something that's very hard to teach (especially in high school), and not everyone is going to have it. We've all seen good players that 'should have won' lose to mental mistakes, allowing fear/doubt to creep in, or being 'tilted' as they say in other communities.

You can learn as much about a game as you want, for as long as you want, but being a great tournament player requires certain emotional and mental qualities to show when the pressure is on, in front of a couple thousand people. Not everyone has those.

GAV said:

It does if concepts are rudimentary to you that are misunderstood by everyone else.

If I could ask him one question, it would be what in his approach does he think gives him an advantage.

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Exactly.

Concept of "talent" is commonly misinterpretated. There is no such thing as having built-in ability to play videogames. There is an aptitude of brain to perform specific tasks, which can then be developed. But thing is, FGs are not that compilcated and are rather simple to the brain to process. Its mostly a matter of memory and reaction, and unlike top stuff like machine learning/rocket science anyone can learn it in a matter of month. All it takes to master is repetition.

It is also very incorrect to compare videogames to martial arts, as they require a completely different set of skills and/or conditions to master. A lot of people with potential talent stay in amateur league never going pro b/c of trauma for example. Also every pro-fight actually affects your fighting ability negatively (and you can only make up with experience to a certain point). Finally there are different skill sets you can achieve success at martial arts (some hit harder, some take hits better etc), where in FGs you dont have much room.

All said, back to sonic fox
Just like TM he plays a multitude of characters, I believe this is the key to his success. His opponents are all character specialists, and he knows what can be expected of them, but you never know what SF will pull out. remember him picking leatherface vs Cowboy, but once he realized WC knows the MU he switched to another counterpick and we havent seen him play it for a long time - spec ops Cassie. He did the same just recently with Hayatei, countering him with Jason, and finally him sticking to erron in the finals - he knew that he wouldnt want to play acidic vs war god. What other people see as trolling is in fact a very smart counterpick strategy, which both gives him an edge AND mental fortitude to last in a major ( less tough battles you play in a tournament is big bonus actually). If you pay attention you will see how many drops and choking happens to SF when opponent puts up a fight, we could see in a couple of times only, against scar, WC,TM and some others.

So to sum it up, the biggest advantage of sonic fox is his unpredictability. He is prepared for his opponents but its impossible to prepare for him. I believe thats the edge he has over everyone.