Question - Kenjutsu So what exactly are characters like Kenshi...

(and Sub for that matter), supposed to about non-stop pressure characters, particularly D'vorah and Johnny? I'm at a loss here. I just got mopped up last night by this dude using both against my (trash) Kenjutsu Kenshi. Granted I haven't played this game in like 3 months, but still.

Where exactly are the gaps during the strings? If I press a button or guess wrong, I'm eating 30-40. Whereas I have to work and play solid neutral for my damage, as opposed to just holding forward and smashing my face into my pad like a lot of these online players who pick top-tier characters. It's dumb as hell.

Also, everytime I tried to jump over him, Kenshi's jumping buttons are so bad that they always either whiffed completely, or he was able to low profile and jab me, and then full combo me.

Also, I feel free to jump-ins because Kenshi's AA options seem pretty cheeks. Sub (my #3 character) seems just as hopeless when he's getting pressured/rushed down towards the corner, but at least he's got reversal (EX) Slide, a clone, and slightly better AA options.

Any help would be immensely appreciated on these matchups.

Learn when to d+1/3/4 (character depending). If you have shit buttons, there's always armor. If you're using Kenshi and you lost with a bar or more of meter, you did it wrong.

trufenix said:

Learn when to d+1/3/4 (character depending). If you have shit buttons, there's always armor. If you're using Kenshi and you lost with a bar or more of meter, you did it wrong.

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Yeah, but where are the gaps? That's what I'm saying. Homeboy blocked and punished literally every EX DF1.

Landonio said:

Yeah, but where are the gaps? That's what I'm saying. Homeboy blocked and punished literally every EX DF1.

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So, here's the deal with kenshi. He doesn't have pressure because none of his specials are safe and most of his strings have a gap or are horribly unsafe if you abort them early or both. I wish I could help you form a gameplan, but I am a Possessed main and all Kenshi's variations (appear to) have wildly different frame data on specials. That said, here are a couple of tips from someone whose not great but plays Kenshi a lot;


I dicked around with your variation for about 15 minutes while making this post and while it seems that none of your specials are safe, quite a few of your variation specific strings are (you're looking for block adv of about -8 or more for a point blank punish).

That said, you're still Kenshi and it won't take your opponent long to figure out you're a very reactionary character. You cannot afford to throw any of your "tele" specials out in naked space because they are hella punishable. Learn the ranges they will hit / trade, always punish (b+3,2 or 4,3 xx anything is a good start), and never be afraid to burn a bar of meter for an armored anti air, wake up or projectile trade because if they put you on your back or in the corner you're going to have a lot of trouble getting out.

Edit: Oh, and a fairly reliable anti air is NJP on reaction. It sounds crazy, but it works.

trufenix said:

So, here's the deal with kenshi. He doesn't have pressure because none of his specials are safe and most of his strings have a gap or are horribly unsafe if you abort them early or both. I wish I could help you form a gameplan, but I am a Possessed main and all Kenshi's variations (appear to) have wildly different frame data on specials. That said, here are a couple of tips from someone whose not great but plays Kenshi a lot;

Spoiler

f+3/b+3, 2 - If you're not using them, you're doing it wrong. One is low, one is mid, but they are both safe, special cancellable, and work great for juggles. Learn them. Love them.
d+1 / d+4 - Your best friends against pressure characters. d1 has shit range, but is faster. d4 has great range but it will get beat. A lot.
3,2 - The only string Kenshi has (at least in my variation) that is safe and mid and special cancelable. Hits weird though. You will discover what I mean after a few matches.

The following are other "good" tools, but they are all high starters meaning you could be uppercutted or worse if you get repetitive.

2,1 - Safe, special cancelable
2,1,1 - Safe, not special cancellable
4,2,1 - Safe, special cancelable (only use the f+2 ender if you have no meter and need to never ever ever use the f+2 ender)
4,D+4 - Safe, not special cancellable,
4,4 - Not safe, but it can pop up on punish
4,4,1,[2] - Not safe, but the 1 will catch anybody mashing a reversal that doesn't have armor on it.

I dicked around with your variation for about 15 minutes while making this post and while it seems that none of your specials are safe, quite a few of your variation specific strings are (you're looking for block adv of about -8 or more for a point blank punish).

That said, you're still Kenshi and it won't take your opponent long to figure out you're a very reactionary character. You cannot afford to throw any of your "tele" specials out in naked space because they are hella punishable. Learn the ranges they will hit / trade, always punish (b+3,2 or 4,3 xx anything is a good start), and never be afraid to burn a bar of meter for an armored anti air, wake up or projectile trade because if they put you on your back or in the corner you're going to have a lot of trouble getting out.

Edit: Oh, and a fairly reliable anti air is NJP on reaction. It sounds crazy, but it works.

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Just wanted to point out that most of this is pretty good info but 211 is special cancel able in kinjutsu variation. Oh, and It's -5 on block as well. Just some more things that I try to keep in mind, referring to jump ins is, jump back and air to airs you use jump 1, cross up attempts use jump 4, and jump ins from around halfscreen/start distance away use jump 2. I play balanced but universally balanced is more similar to kinjutsu than possessed so the jumps and the 211 string is the same. As far as AA, use d2 it's incredibly good at 8f and hits pretty high (kinda like kano's), and you can get a bf3 to combo off of it if hit high enough. When doing strings you can cancel into push to stay safe most of the time on block. I hope this helps bud @Landonio. Sorry I don't have any matchup specifics though since I don't play that variation much

Ok, I appreciate the replies but, and I don't mean this in any negative way whatsoever, a lot of this stuff is fairly basic, and not quite what I'm asking about. I probably should have prefaced that I've been playing Kenshi (Kenjutsu) since like last summer. I've played probably around 900 or so matches with him since I started, with close to a 70 winning %. I consider myself an ok Kenshi player to be honest. It's just I haven't really played this game since XL dropped and I'm trying to get back into it since Evo was so hype. Normally an Xbox player but just started playing on the PS4, and trying to get used to the controller.

My questions specifically are for these two matchups though. The problem, even though I have a lot of general Kenshi experience, is that I don't have a lot of experience against these two characters (or at least good players that play D'vorah and Johnny). Where are the gaps in their strings where I can press buttons/armor? If Kenshi really does have no real options there, that is incredibly dumb. It's also dumb that his best cross-up AA seems to be jump-in 4, which only grants a combo in certain situations. The strug.

Also, I knew about the NJP as an anti-air/get off me move. It is definitely one of his better tools. It sucks that his NJP is his best AA however. I will definitely try his uppercut more though. When I used to use it back in the day, it seemed like it was buns, so I stopped using it. Will give it another shot though.

Landonio said:

My questions specifically are for these two matchups though. The problem, even though I have a lot of general Kenshi experience, is that I don't have a lot of experience against these two characters (or at least good players that play D'vorah and Johnny). Where are the gaps in their strings where I can press buttons/armor?

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Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the absolute best johnny can do off anything but f+3 is +2 on block, which means you can check anything but the knee (or more accuratley what comes after it) with d+1 (or armor). If you block 1,2 / 1,1,3 / 3,3 or f+2,4 and see the dash start mashing. I personally just let any cancel that comes off a blocked knee rock because he is free to bait you or out gun you with with EX nut punch (both of which are completely unpunishable).

You can also use d+4 after blocked cancels because all the 1 strings are high BUT he will eventually start feeding you knees.

I can't speak to D'Vorah, i don't know any. I would recommend (as I would for johnny) to just recreate the problem in training mode, then practice getting out of it. Unless you're fighting Honeybee, you'll probably be able to recreate something akin to what you're up against in about 5 minutes.

If Kenshi really does have no real options there, that is incredibly dumb. It's also dumb that his best cross-up AA seems to be jump-in 4, which only grants a combo in certain situations. The strug.

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Well, it is dumb but here we are. Kenshi can be a bully from mid to full screen, but anyone with the guts to just run in and push buttons is going to give him headaches. Once they learn your armor tendencies, you are in big trouble. That is why the 7 frame d+1 exists. Use it. Love it.

I'd say start backdashing more when you think your opponent is baiting your armor but you know.. Kenshi doesn't have one.
Pick a different character, Kenjutsu's gameplan revolves around (very weak) stagger and unsafe 50/50s, D'vorah's gameplan revolves around safe hit confirmable 50/50s and non-stop pressure. It just isn't a fair matchup.

E: Also LOL Johnny is +10 off of most cancels and +20 off of 114 and S4.

picking top tiers is even more so with offline players than online lol . look at the top 8s everywhere. same characters usually . ppl gta do wat they gta do to win when big monies is on the line

thlityoursloat said:

I'd say start backdashing more when you think your opponent is baiting your armor but you know.. Kenshi doesn't have one.
Pick a different character, Kenjutsu's gameplan revolves around (very weak) stagger and unsafe 50/50s, D'vorah's gameplan revolves around safe hit confirmable 50/50s and non-stop pressure. It just isn't a fair matchup.

E: Also LOL Johnny is +10 off of most cancels and +20 off of 114 and S4.

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s4 plus 20 , 114 is not

thlityoursloat said:

E: Also LOL Johnny is +10 off of most cancels and +20 off of 114 and S4.

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On block?

trufenix said:

On block?

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Yes? He's not top 5 for no reason.

I sugest you lab up johnny and recreate the situations, find out what is punishable like 113 or that you can armor after SKRC 11/1 basically its a struggle to stay out of range of his godlike F3 and punish on wiff or use that armor.

with Dvorah its more about punishing her cancels on block, don't try to punish F22 WGC on block but F11 or F112 on block is punishable. and any point that she puts out under swarm you can cross. try to stay out of her F1/F2/D4 range, utilize Kenshi's B1 and Stnding 1. with kenjitsu its all about those safe strings and opening them up with different hit openers and confusing them to open up after X amount of hits. yes Kenjitsu has mixups per say but they are not even close to great in the rosters capabilities. his B3 has close to no range F2 should be your best friend with spacing and BF2.

Honestly all they can tell you is basics, because the only thing that could get you to lose the matchup is small mistakes and it sounds like you just havent got the matchup down and all you really need is that lab time, in my case, i learn the characters i have a hard time beating, so i know first hand where the openings are. anmd i also DVR record my losses so i can rectreate what went wrong in practice.

Appreciate the replies. Btw, some dumb shit to add on to the Johnny matchup. His NJP hitbox is broken. It beats Kenshi's JIK (or really any of Kenshi's aerial attacks) clean. Even when Kenshi's body is COMPLETELY ABOVE Johnny's, he still get's hit by the NJP. It looks ridiculous and makes zero sense, and has lost me more than a few matches. *sigh*

It's funny because iirc Johnnies NJP got buffed in one of the patches lol. They gave it more active frames haha.

Scott The Scot said:

It's funny because iirc Johnnies NJP got buffed in one of the patches lol. They gave it more active frames haha.

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As a fisticuffs player, I will not surrender this to the anti a-list army. He needs it.

Landonio said:

(and Sub for that matter), supposed to about non-stop pressure characters, particularly D'vorah and Johnny? I'm at a loss here. I just got mopped up last night by this dude using both against my (trash) Kenjutsu Kenshi. Granted I haven't played this game in like 3 months, but still.

Where exactly are the gaps during the strings? If I press a button or guess wrong, I'm eating 30-40. Whereas I have to work and play solid neutral for my damage, as opposed to just holding forward and smashing my face into my pad like a lot of these online players who pick top-tier characters. It's dumb as hell.

Also, everytime I tried to jump over him, Kenshi's jumping buttons are so bad that they always either whiffed completely, or he was able to low profile and jab me, and then full combo me.

Also, I feel free to jump-ins because Kenshi's AA options seem pretty cheeks. Sub (my #3 character) seems just as hopeless when he's getting pressured/rushed down towards the corner, but at least he's got reversal (EX) Slide, a clone, and slightly better AA options.

Any help would be immensely appreciated on these matchups.

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Fundamentals are your best option and knowing your opponent.

1. When to poke out of pressure with d1/d3
2. When to armour out of pressure. ("gaps")
3. When NOT to armour out of pressure. (multi-hits)
4. When to D4, NJP, find options where you can basically apply basic footsies and start your own game.
5. When the opponent can do all of the above.

Landonio said:

Where exactly are the gaps during the strings?

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d'vorah-
only f1,1,2 is plus when run cancelled (jails into 1 and 2)
1,1,2 is safe but minus
f2,2 is safe but minus
everything else is probably punishable

johnny cage- his is a lot more complicated
f3 jails into 1 / 2 / f3
1,2 jails into 1 (not sure what else)
1,1,3 plus 1 i think
1,1,4 jails into 1 / 2 / f3
3,3,3 jails into 1
4 jails into 1 / 2 / f3 (not sure what else)
4 dash cancelled is plus 7 i think.

both are pretty scary but have a lot of weaknessess and i believe the match up is supposed to be heavily in sub zero's favor and keep in mind that kenshi is mid/low tier

Just wait for the patch, maybe with his buffs we won't need to outplay the opponent every time to get wins while using Kenshi xD