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Why does Sonic Fox win everything?

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A F0xy Grampa

Problem X Promotions
@A F0xy Grampa Would you say that your losses are your own fault and that if you could go back and work harder at learning the match ups and learn everything you should of learned before your losses, that you would of won? In other words, is the fact that you didn't work as hard as sonic fox the reason you didn't win evo? I believe that is the case. This seems like common sense to me but other people here seem to strongly disagree.
Most of my losses come down to me dropping combos/execution errors tbh.
Some to bad guessing, some to getting aliened.
Some to just generally losing.

There's only so much you can know a certain point in a games life, some people will know more than others.
 

God Confirm

We're all from Earthrealm. If not, cool pic brah.
I'd like to weigh in on this with a quick parallel to MMA for a second. Some fighters don't punch as hard as others, that's just the way it is. Some don't take punches as hard as others. If, for example, Chael Sonnen hit as hard as a guy like Chris Weidman, he could have conceivably been champion instead of losing a fight wherein he hit the champ 300 (more or less) times over the course of 22 minutes and change before getting submitted.

In an instance like this, a guy like Chael Sonnen in my opinion has maxed out his potential in terms of practice and dedicatio as a martial artist, given that he has spent his entire waking life as a wrestler and was an Olympic alternate. However, having put in countless hours, days, years of wrestling simply wasn't enough to make him better than the very best guy, who could take all of his pressure and eat his punches without being finished.

I think something similar would apply to fighting games, if circumstances were similar enough to allow. Could I (just for example) practice MKX for 25 years training hours daily and memorize data and improve immensely? (assuming in this hypothetical world that MKX is still alive by then)? Sure. But if Sonic keeps playing and practicing (even if not as frequently) as well in that time frame, will it be enough? I don't know. Some people, I believe, are handed gifts at birth which separate them from the pack when the lights shine the brightest and the stakes are the highest. Hopefully this made enough sense to be a worthwhile comparison.

EDIT: Sorry youph if you've gotten this response like 6 times already, I didn't care to read the rest of the thread :p
nailed it

people like to pretend we are all made equal, but some people are just naturally better at some things than others. That's ok, thats what human nature is. Everyone is different.

that being said, natural talent isn't enough to stop you from losing every time, to the guy who trained harder than you. There is no doubt Sonic is naturally good at this game, but that he has worked just as hard as anyone else playing today, to earn every single victory
 

GAV

Resolution through knowledge and resolve.
My guess is that a few words from Sonic Fox could blow our minds. He should keep it to himself though.

Aspects of the game are apparent to Sonic Fox that aren't to everyone else.

Like weak beats strong in a fight...
Multiple vectors, what does he get that you are missing?

In Madden, there is an internal clock on each play. There are optimal times to throw the ball, make your first cut, and so on - depending on how many AI rushers there are. If you act within those windows, your players get a momentary attribute boost.
 
Most of my losses come down to me dropping combos/execution errors tbh.
Some to bad guessing, some to getting aliened.
Some to just generally losing.

There's only so much you can know a certain point in a games life, some people will know more than others.
But you don't "just lose". just like Sonic Fox doesn't "just win". It's not by luck that he keeps winning. So you're saying he knows more. But does he know anything that you simply can't know? You've won tournaments and you've proven that you're a great player at any fighting game you play. You don't actually believe that sonic fox just has some sort of ability that you just can never have do you?
 

Grape Juice City

Shaolin boyz
But you don't "just lose". just like Sonic Fox doesn't "just win". It's not by luck that he keeps winning. So you're saying he knows more. But does he know anything that you simply can't know? You've won tournaments and you've proven that you're a great player at any fighting game you play. You don't actually believe that sonic fox just has some sort of ability that you just can never have do you?
You can't seriously be questioning why a player who only uses a single variation in tournament is at a disadvantage when compared to a player who utilizes half of the roster to win, can you? I mean, not when the answer is so obvious.
 

Cashual

PSN: Cansuela
Don't quite understand the logic here. What did I say to imply I had one? I, like the top players of this game, am not working hard enough to get one.
You are out of your mind, and this thread is suspect.

Where were you when a handful of NRS's most talented players (Reo, Slayer, DJT, MIT, Michelangelo, Forever King, Zyphox, and more) lived at YOMI and played 24/7? Those guys sacrificed more than anyone and devoted everything to the game and learning matchups and still couldn't consistently beat SonicFox. Guys like Foxy, Tom, Scar, Dragon, Honeybee, WoundCowboy play/played this game non-stop and have not been able to consistently beat him. This isn't a matter of effort, or at the very least, it wasn't about effort over the first year of the game's life....I don't know if all those guys still give as much as they did, I can't say one way or another.

Either way, SonicFox plays SFV competitively at a pretty highlevel in the US, is probably the best at Skullgirls, and pretty much is a freak at every game he plays. The guy is really, really, fucking good.
 

Cashual

PSN: Cansuela
But what this implies is that everyone under sonic fox is just too dumb to beat him. They don't have the iq points to master this incredibly complex game. I simply don't believe mkx is complex enough for it to be for those reasons. I'm not saying it's not complex because it is, but not to the degree where iq matters THAT much. I really do believe sonic fox is the only player working hard enough.
He has an extremely high IQ, obviously.

I actually do agree with this. I think he does come across as pretty freakishly intelligent....albeit not necessarily in terms of the social variety :D. And, that's not at all totally unique ti Fox. I think in general truly great fighting game players (probably easily expandable to "great gamers" full stop) are really fucking intelligent. Now, that's not to say everyone is Einstein, but just that all other things equal, intelligence does definitely factor into someone's "ceiling". It really does in all aspects of life, and certainly it plays a huge roll in competition.

The conflict comes in here in weighing the relative importance of the many variables that comprise a GREAT player. I think many have been right in objecting to the OP's premise that the only two appreciable factors are effort/work and IQ. It's a major oversimplification of what makes someone good at anything.

BUT, none of that means that it isn't possible for one of the key reasons that certain players don't beat Fox is because of their effort level/commitment. If all the "stats" are on a spectrum, someone could have a really high natural ability, but a fairly low effort level, and their achievement level will reflect that. The opposite is true as well. Fox is so good because his IQ, his natural reflexes/hand-eye coordination/, his ability to store and recall information and immediately apply and adapt on the fly (arguably a dimension of IQ...), his ability to manage stressful, high-pressure moments, his willingness to travel, and most certainly his WORK.

Arguing that no one "self respecting" will come in here and claim simply "fox is smarter than I am" proves nothing other than that ALL people have intellectual vanity and/or to reach even the level they have managed speaks to their confidence/belief in their ability and they wouldn't come and willingly put themselves beneath someone else on such a fundamental human level.
 
You are out of your mind, and this thread is suspect.

Where were you when a handful of NRS's most talented players (Reo, Slayer, DJT, MIT, Michelangelo, Forever King, Zyphox, and more) lived at YOMI and played 24/7? Those guys sacrificed more than anyone and devoted everything to the game and learning matchups and still couldn't consistently beat SonicFox. Guys like Foxy, Tom, Scar, Dragon, Honeybee, WoundCowboy play/played this game non-stop and have not been able to consistently beat him. This isn't a matter of effort, or at the very least, it wasn't about effort over the first year of the game's life....I don't know if all those guys still give as much as they did, I can't say one way or another.

Either way, SonicFox plays SFV competitively at a pretty highlevel in the US, is probably the best at Skullgirls, and pretty much is a freak at every game he plays. The guy is really, really, fucking good.
Idk. The answer Foxy gave me earlier on why he lost at evo was extremely vague and disappointing. He blamed his losses on alien, I guess implying that the character is broken and just can't be beat. And he blamed it on "bad guessing" . But the game is not just a guessing game, or else sonic fox wouldn't win consistently. So I didn't find that to be a satisfying excuse. And he blamed his losses on "just generally losing" , which really doesn't tell you anything. I really don't know what that means. But maybe he just isn't great at analyzing matches and what goes wrong. idk. Like I said, it was pretty vague.
 

sub_on_dubs

Online Scrub Lord
He doesn't win everything guys. He gets bodied in SFV and hasn't done well since FInal Round now that everyone has caught on to the Fang gimmicks. You can't be the best at everything though.
 

BillStickers

Do not touch me again.
Why Sonic is good:
  1. Superior reaction times. Sonic's reactions are somewhere in the 15 – 20 frame range, and in games like MKX, every frame you can see before your opponent is an advantage.
  2. Broad fighting game experience. He plays a lot of different fighting games, which helps in breaking down characters and matchups.
  3. Realtime calculation ability. Knowing all of your options in a given situation and min-maxing your attack opportunities is a necessary skill for MKX that requires both mental ability and purposeful study of all characters *as well as* the entire game. Things like health/meter management, frame data, spacing, etc. all come into play here, and IMO Sonic is great at having an acute awareness of the best move given a specific state of the game.
Why we suck:
  1. Lack of a competitive mentality. The NRS community is rife with character loyalists and naive idealism that keep us from all picking up Alien or Tanya (RIP) or Mileena. It's been a problem since as long as I can remember and holds people back to this day.
NRS's role:
  1. Short release cycle for NRS games. We tend to love NRS more than we love the actual content of their games, which is why we all run to buy the latest NRS titles and keep food on Ed Boon's table. That has some unfortunate side effects for meta development, mainly including 1) lack of professional gamers taking NRS games seriously and 2) lack of breathing room for meta development. Melee and UMvC3 come to mind here as games that have seen continued meta development well beyond their dev support cycles.
  2. High volumes of low-quality content. NRS prioritizes new features and content volume over competitive value, which has hurt MKX's meta development in the long run. Having 3+ variations per character (the vast majority of them being competitively unviable) has created a sort of dilution of effort from the community. There's simply too much one needs to learn in this game to have a full understanding and too much clutter that takes away from the core game.
I'm sure there are more reasons but that's all I can think of for now.
 

GAV

Resolution through knowledge and resolve.
didn't you go around belittling smash in different threads? where were these gif replies to yourself then? or is it just your opinion on games are more valid than others so that gives you a free pass when you shitpost?
 

Riot Frenzy

Acidic Reptile
T
Why Sonic is good:
  1. Superior reaction times. Sonic's reactions are somewhere in the 15 – 20 frame range, and in games like MKX, every frame you can see before your opponent is an advantage.
  2. Broad fighting game experience. He plays a lot of different fighting games, which helps in breaking down characters and matchups.
  3. Realtime calculation ability. Knowing all of your options in a given situation and min-maxing your attack opportunities is a necessary skill for MKX that requires both mental ability and purposeful study of all characters *as well as* the entire game. Things like health/meter management, frame data, spacing, etc. all come into play here, and IMO Sonic is great at having an acute awareness of the best move given a specific state of the game.
Why we suck:
  1. Lack of a competitive mentality. The NRS community is rife with character loyalists and naive idealism that keep us from all picking up Alien or Tanya (RIP) or Mileena. It's been a problem since as long as I can remember and holds people back to this day.
NRS's role:
  1. Short release cycle for NRS games. We tend to love NRS more than we love the actual content of their games, which is why we all run to buy the latest NRS titles and keep food on Ed Boon's table. That has some unfortunate side effects for meta development, mainly including 1) lack of professional gamers taking NRS games seriously and 2) lack of breathing room for meta development. Melee and UMvC3 come to mind here as games that have seen continued meta development well beyond their dev support cycles.
  2. High volumes of low-quality content. NRS prioritizes new features and content volume over competitive value, which has hurt MKX's meta development in the long run. Having 3+ variations per character (the vast majority of them being competitively unviable) has created a sort of dilution of effort from the community. There's simply too much one needs to learn in this game to have a full understanding and too much clutter that takes away from the core game.
I'm sure there are more reasons but that's all I can think of for now.
This sums everything up. I have been a umvc3 tournament player since the start but haven't entered one Mk tourney despite playing day one. Lack of a willing competition to learn and not be toxic as well as a crappy online ranking system have kept me from fulling embracing this game. I love the depth of character variety and still feel like this game can be made to exist for as long as the melee and marvel communities have.
 

GAV

Resolution through knowledge and resolve.
Idk. The answer Foxy gave me earlier on why he lost at evo was extremely vague and disappointing. He blamed his losses on alien, I guess implying that the character is broken and just can't be beat. And he blamed it on "bad guessing" . But the game is not just a guessing game, or else sonic fox wouldn't win consistently. So I didn't find that to be a satisfying excuse. And he blamed his losses on "just generally losing" , which really doesn't tell you anything. I really don't know what that means. But maybe he just isn't great at analyzing matches and what goes wrong. idk. Like I said, it was pretty vague.
Foxy Grampa plays very fast. Let me illustrate...

Most players play on a slower rhythm.
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |

Foxy plays on a much faster rhythm.
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||

Extending your focus when you play that fast is difficult.

Sonic plays fast like Foxy, but somehow his focus doesn't waiver.

I'm oversimplifying, but it is how I see things. More strategy oriented players like REO and Big D play slower, but understand what happened better.
 

D7X

EMPEROR | D7X
But what this implies is that everyone under sonic fox is just too dumb to beat him. They don't have the iq points to master this incredibly complex game. I simply don't believe mkx is complex enough for it to be for those reasons. I'm not saying it's not complex because it is, but not to the degree where iq matters THAT much. I really do believe sonic fox is the only player working hard enough.
Right, IQ has nothing to do w/ it...
EDIT: It does but unless it's abnormally higher than everyone else, it's not significant
 
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Second Saint

A man with too many names.
Idk. The answer Foxy gave me earlier on why he lost at evo was extremely vague and disappointing. He blamed his losses on alien, I guess implying that the character is broken and just can't be beat. And he blamed it on "bad guessing" . But the game is not just a guessing game, or else sonic fox wouldn't win consistently. So I didn't find that to be a satisfying excuse. And he blamed his losses on "just generally losing" , which really doesn't tell you anything. I really don't know what that means. But maybe he just isn't great at analyzing matches and what goes wrong. idk. Like I said, it was pretty vague.
I want to address this bit here because it isn't really said often enough. Guessing is a skill. Randomness, prediction, influencing your opponent, the general meta involved in fighting games are all things you can actually be better at than someone else. You literally can be better at 50/50's due to factors other than overhead or low.

I think this is best illustrated by the fact that there were competitive Rock, Paper, Scissors tournaments and they had consistent top 8 placers. Statistical probabilities simply don't cover the whole scope of the game since they do not occur in a vacuum and human beings are not true random number generators.

I think this is part of why Sonic is so good. It's not necessarily how much he practices or his knowledge of the game, but his ability to read people and their subconscious patterns, whether offensively or defensively. I suppose I can't know that for sure though without going through the footage and seeing what Sonic's actual success/failure rate is with and against 50/50's.

Also, Foxy listed multiple factors in his losses, and you seem to have glossed right over the primary one. Most of his losses come down to execution errors. Y'know, because he's human and not infallible. It's weird you're not jumping on that point since it could be construed to support your position of everyone else not practicing enough.
 
I want to address this bit here because it isn't really said often enough. Guessing is a skill. Randomness, prediction, influencing your opponent, the general meta involved in fighting games are all things you can actually be better at than someone else. You literally can be better at 50/50's due to factors other than overhead or low.

I think this is best illustrated by the fact that there were competitive Rock, Paper, Scissors tournaments and they had consistent top 8 placers. Statistical probabilities simply don't cover the whole scope of the game since they do not occur in a vacuum and human beings are not true random number generators.

I think this is part of why Sonic is so good. It's not necessarily how much he practices or his knowledge of the game, but his ability to read people and their subconscious patterns, whether offensively or defensively. I suppose I can't know that for sure though without going through the footage and seeing what Sonic's actual success/failure rate is with and against 50/50's.

Also, Foxy listed multiple factors in his losses, and you seem to have glossed right over the primary one. Most of his losses come down to execution errors. Y'know, because he's human and not infallible. It's weird you're not jumping on that point since it could be construed to support your position of everyone else not practicing enough.
I know it's because he doesn't put in the same work. I played f0xy a few times in mk9. He is an incredibly smart player. I know for a fact he doesn't lose because someone is smarter than him. He either just doesn't have that fire he use to have, or he needs to practice new characters, or needs to learn the match ups better etc. But it is DEFINITELY not because he isn't smart enough like a lot of people in here are saying.

Guessing and reading are two different things as well. If you're playing an opponent who is on the same level as you, you're most likely guessing. And it's less like rock, paper, scissors and more like a coin flip. A 50/50. If you're reading your opponent, he is playing predictable and playing inferior to you. Which is a good indication that he is simply not on the same level and can't keep up with your higher level mind games.
 
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