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General/Other - Sub-Zero CRYOMANCER CHANGES

Amplified$hotz

Done with MK1. Stop supporting a scam company
Maybe, but I think it is worth it slumming it in the neutral because you can rape him in the corner. Cryo is basically a "I do everything you do, but worse" version of MOS Ermac. And of course not even close to Spectral or Mystic. I think the both get 6-4d by Spectral or maybe 7-3 by Mystic, and MOS is 5-5 vs Grandmaster and Cryomancer loses to MOS 6-4 imo of course.
Wow @NRS pls
 

Gilbagz

Joker here~
The way I see cryo is, he's a jack of all trades minus zoning.

His damage output is rivalled by many in the cast, but at the same time he has stupidly safe armour at the same time. He doesn't do anything insanely well, but he does do close to everything.

The closest thing to him is probably cut throat kano in terms sheer tool set, but sub also has a godlike jump game and a mostly safe armoured reversal that leads to 28% minimum. Kano does have safe armour as well with up ball, but if he wants damage he needs to use the horizontal ball which is unsafe.
Kano maintains plus frames yes with ex buff cancels and ex knives, but otherwise his frame data is as negative as subs. His plus string have little to no range, and are 12f and upwards. Sub-Zero doesnt have any true plus frames yes, but the f12 series gives him some ability to stagger.

If i were to change cryo, the only changes I would give him are:
- 7f d1
- 10f f1
- f122 -6 on block
- d2 11f
- hammer -7 on block
- 1(1)1: fixed hitbox on 1,1,1 to prevent it from whiffing on certain characters while crouch blocking

Quality of Life
- ex burst -15 (I honestly think this move is dumb for how safe it is with its potential damage)
- b2 -15 (even though its already punishable, the 5050 option should be more punishable. Some characters have issues punishing it based on range)
- j1 increased hurtbox
 

Colest

Mid-Tier 'Mancer Main
Maybe it's a bit much but the biggest thing I would like for Cryo are earlier active frames. Lengthen startup frames if you have to but that move has no place outside of combos currently because if the opponent even thinks about jumping the animation for the hammer will pass right through the character before active frames start. Not asking for an alien flip where it hits everything in front and above it but even just the ability to reliably tripguard with it would be appreciated.

There are some other QoL buffs like a faster D1 that I would like but a more meaty hammer would do wonders for Cryo's footsie game.
 

Dankster Morgan

It is better this way
The way I see cryo is, he's a jack of all trades minus zoning.

His damage output is rivalled by many in the cast, but at the same time he has stupidly safe armour at the same time. He doesn't do anything insanely well, but he does do close to everything.

The closest thing to him is probably cut throat kano in terms sheer tool set, but sub also has a godlike jump game and a mostly safe armoured reversal that leads to 28% minimum. Kano does have safe armour as well with up ball, but if he wants damage he needs to use the horizontal ball which is unsafe.
Kano maintains plus frames yes with ex buff cancels and ex knives, but otherwise his frame data is as negative as subs. His plus string have little to no range, and are 12f and upwards. Sub-Zero doesnt have any true plus frames yes, but the f12 series gives him some ability to stagger.

If i were to change cryo, the only changes I would give him are:
- 7f d1
- 10f f1
- f122 -6 on block
- d2 11f
- hammer -7 on block
- 1(1)1: fixed hitbox on 1,1,1 to prevent it from whiffing on certain characters while crouch blocking

Quality of Life
- ex burst -15 (I honestly think this move is dumb for how safe it is with its potential damage)
- b2 -15 (even though its already punishable, the 5050 option should be more punishable. Some characters have issues punishing it based on range)
- j1 increased hurtbox
Cutthroat Kano's 50/50 is zero on block on the overhead, and plus 1 on block on the low. And they're minus 5 if you can't hit confirm. And if you spend meter they are both plus. Sub can't make his overhead better than minus 13.
 

UsedForGlue

"Strength isn't everything"
Hello once again. As you all know, cryomancer and unbreakable subzero are lacking in the design department due to the grandmaster. Time to discuss some changes.

This is only for cryomancer so someone get started on one for unbreakable...

Changes:
-The last hit of 111 changed to an overhead
- mb hammer gets 2 hits of armor to make up for the slow start up with no push back if blocked...or increase the start up with more block disadvantage
-f122 changed to minus 6 or 7 on block
-f12 changed to plus 1 on block

Thats all i can think of. Let it begin
The issue isn't his variations not having certain tools as much as it is his ariation-less move set.

His 112 needs to push the opponent back on block, similar to the space that Triborgs F43 and 1112.
114 needs to be around -6 and a HKD, as it could be the most useless and pointless string in the game, absolutely no reason to use it.
And his 11 needs to have better recovery.

He has no NJP or Uppercut game, in Cryomancer, they gave him a great animation, but made it a frame slower than his normal teleport, so it is actually harder to AA people in Cryomancer unless its right over you for a standing 1.

His F42 should have push back on block, again, similar to Triborg's 43 as an example.

His Ice Balls need to be faster, as the start up speed and recovery do balance out Grandmaster, but its that classic thing of his other variations seriously suffering because they are sooooooo worried about a Grandmaster backlash from the community.

MB Ice ball needs a much much much much faster start up so you can blow through projectiles on a reaction and not just a random throw out...which is basically what it is.

He also needs his B1, or B12 to recover faster on block, with a the B12 string having a third hit option.

Once all this is corrected, little changes to his Unbreakable and Cryomancer variations will go a long way.

SUCH AS:
The Cryomancer F422+4 Cold blooded grab, should be extended to the Unbreakable variation also, such as F42 2+4 MB Aura - B12 Ice Ball etc etc, so that the variation has damage.

MB Aura's should all jail standing 1's or B1's, obviously this wont leave enough advantage for B3 or B2 to jail, which is fair.

Parry recovering instantly on projectiles.

Aura giving the opponent no meter build for having projectiles blocked, while MB aura does a damage burst.

I know these are Unbreakable ideas, but you get the picture, his variation-less outset is terrible and it holds back Unbreakable and Cryomancer.
 

Lokheit

Noob
The more I think about it, the more I wish for the last 2 hits of F122 to be their own string without the F1 as a buff... it fixes SO much for the character...

13 frames, safe long range Mid check. And the best part is that if you're not sure if they will block and can't hitconfirm in time, the first hit still gives you a guaranteed 50/50 on hit. You can also play with it on whiff as the second hit is also long range and a launcher. I would even take some block and hit advantage nerf on the move if it's converted on its own string.

It's not as devastating as the stuff Pierceng Mileena or others can throw, but it would help a huge lot with the character weaknesses.
 

Jeffrey Wolf

YouTube: Jeffrey B Wolf
I realize that this is a Cryo thread, but since Unbreakable was brought up: I see a lot of people wanting the Parry to instantly recover after projectiles, not just @UsedForGlue, but it's actually good that it doesn't for situations like KL Hat pressure (i.e. it absorbs the hat and whatever button KL presses). Now if they want to give the move near instant start up so you could Parry both on reaction, sure, but that seems unlikely. If you're worried about projectiles, just put on the Aura.

Something that Unbreakable needs is for Aura to ignore DOT effects, like it does chip. Frankly, it's ridiculous that it doesn't already.

For Cryo and Unbreakable, a faster get off me poke and a better footsie string would be great.
 
Overhead hammer (both mb and not) need to be faster to give more of a 50/50 element to the char. The cold blooded string (F4,2,1+3) needs more hit advantage to be able to either reset effectively or regular ice ball after it and connect. The last hit of 111 needs to be an overhead as said previously to give a 50/50 element again. Air hammer need to be plus so you can continue pressure. And that's all I can think of
 

Jeffrey Wolf

YouTube: Jeffrey B Wolf
Why do people want the third hit of 111 to be an Overhead? So you can mix it up with Slide? That would be an utterly terrible 50/50. You'd either have to commit to 111, Ice Ball, since there's no such thing as single hit confirms in this game, which would leave you full combo punishable if blocked. Alternatively, you could end with Burst or Hammer to make it safer, but that's not netting you much damage. On the flip side, if you Slide, you're barely getting any damage if it hits, and you're eating any combo the opponent wants to use if blocked. In other words, the risk/reward of this 50/50 would be completely skewed.

111 is an amazing string as is. Very few characters give you a three hit confirmable string, which is safe, very fast, and leads to that much damage. In fact, this string is why Cryo punishes for some of the highest damage in the entire game.

Also, I see a lot of people wanting Hammer to be faster. If you want a faster Hammer, play War God. The point of Hammer is that it's basically safe and ignores parries. If we get speed, we'll have to sacrifice safety, and that's not a good trade, since we already have Burst if you need a faster reversal (which, btw, is one of the best reversals in the game in Cryo's hands, because of how much damage it does and how hard it is to punish).
 
Why do people want the third hit of 111 to be an Overhead? So you can mix it up with Slide? That would be an utterly terrible 50/50. You'd either have to commit to 111, Ice Ball, since there's no such thing as single hit confirms in this game, which would leave you full combo punishable if blocked. Alternatively, you could end with Burst or Hammer to make it safer, but that's not netting you much damage. On the flip side, if you Slide, you're barely getting any damage if it hits, and you're eating any combo the opponent wants to use if blocked. In other words, the risk/reward of this 50/50 would be completely skewed.

111 is an amazing string as is. Very few characters give you a three hit confirmable string, which is safe, very fast, and leads to that much damage. In fact, this string is why Cryo punishes for some of the highest damage in the entire game.

Also, I see a lot of people wanting Hammer to be faster. If you want a faster Hammer, play War God. The point of Hammer is that it's basically safe and ignores parries. If we get speed, we'll have to sacrifice safety, and that's not a good trade, since we already have Burst if you need a faster reversal (which, btw, is one of the best reversals in the game in Cryo's hands, because of how much damage it does and how hard it is to punish).
Hammer being slow as it is with only one hit of armor is a bad trade period. Also just because something seems hard to punish doesn't mean that the punish doesn't exist.
 

Jeffrey Wolf

YouTube: Jeffrey B Wolf
True, but those punishes are very limited. Especially in comparison to other overhead special moves. As for being a bad trade, only if you're going up against a multi-hitting attack or a double jab. Otherwise, it performs just fine in the standard role of armor--better in some ways, again, due to the difficulty of punishing. I could understand if this was the only reversal Cryo had, but, as stated before, he has Shatter, and even Slide, if you're worried about someone attacking. I suppose the argument could be made that you have to make a choice with him on wakeup, instead of having one option that covers everything, but we can't all have Tremor's pre-patch low blast.
 
True, but those punishes are very limited. Especially in comparison to other overhead special moves. As for being a bad trade, only if you're going up against a multi-hitting attack or a double jab. Otherwise, it performs just fine in the standard role of armor--better in some ways, again, due to the difficulty of punishing. I could understand if this was the only reversal Cryo had, but, as stated before, he has Shatter, and even Slide, if you're worried about someone attacking. I suppose the argument could be made that you have to make a choice with him on wakeup, instead of having one option that covers everything, but we can't all have Tremor's pre-patch low blast.
...tis not a low...or that would be stupid.

Point blank shatter is an easy punish imo so adjusting the vertical hitbox wouldn't make it stupid...given how close sub has to be for this to work.
 

ChoseDeath

Seriously Casual Player.
It just shows how MKXL's meta is (soap bar in my mouth), why use a character with a high damage unsafeish 50/50 when you can use a character with safe 50/50s that deal the same damage?
Characters like Kenjutsu and Cryomancer are not terrible in and of themselves, they're just obsolete.
You know what? That is a fairly superb donation right there. I concur sir.
 

CrazyFingers

The Power of Lame Compels You
Here are my ideas

UNIVERSAL
  1. 6-7f D1.
  2. F4 goes from having a startup of 12f to having a startup of 10f.
CRYOMANCER
  1. 1,1,1 goes from -5 on block to +2 on block.
  2. F4,2,1+3 goes from hit advantage of 0 frames to a hit advantage of +10.
  3. EX DB2 (Crushing Hammer) start up taken down from 28 frames to 18 frames.
  4. F1, 2 goes from 0 on block to +2 on block.
  5. Air Frost Hammer gains an EX version with a hit of armor that falls faster and is +8 on block.
Those are my ideas, wonder what you guys think of them.
 

Tanno

The Fantasy is the Reality of the Mind
Here are my ideas

UNIVERSAL
  1. 6-7f D1.
  2. F4 goes from having a startup of 12f to having a startup of 10f.
CRYOMANCER
  1. 1,1,1 goes from -5 on block to +2 on block.
  2. F4,2,1+3 goes from hit advantage of 0 frames to a hit advantage of +10.
  3. EX DB2 (Crushing Hammer) start up taken down from 28 frames to 18 frames.
  4. F1, 2 goes from 0 on block to +2 on block.
  5. Air Frost Hammer gains an EX version with a hit of armor that falls faster and is +8 on block.
Those are my ideas, wonder what you guys think of them.
Add this:

5. ...and send the opponent in air (juggle).
 

Tanno

The Fantasy is the Reality of the Mind
If they added the EX version, I would think of these combos.

FJP> EX DB2 (Air)> NJP> FJP> F42T> EX DF2> FJP> F42T> [123> BF4] / [F12] (The [] are different enders. The letter T means the Throw (L1 or X + Square))

FJP> B12> Iceball> FJP> EX DB2 (Air)> NJP> FJP> F42T> 123> [Hammer] / [F12].
 

Jeffrey Wolf

YouTube: Jeffrey B Wolf
@EMPR_MURK, of course it's not a low...I'm just saying that Cryo doesn't have a one size fits all wake-up option (like people seem to want with a faster hammer), and he doesn't need it, since he already has multiple wake-up options--you just have to choose the right one for the scenario. As for Shatter, point blank punish might not be bad, but anything further than that is really tough, especially if we're talking about a sizeable punish and not just something like Reptile's Ex Slide.
 

Gilbagz

Joker here~
@EMPR_MURK, of course it's not a low...I'm just saying that Cryo doesn't have a one size fits all wake-up option (like people seem to want with a faster hammer), and he doesn't need it, since he already has multiple wake-up options--you just have to choose the right one for the scenario. As for Shatter, point blank punish might not be bad, but anything further than that is really tough, especially if we're talking about a sizeable punish and not just something like Reptile's Ex Slide.
Listen to this man people. Cryo only needs minor changes. Faster d1, f122 -6, f1 11f maybe. Otherwise he's fine. Maybe make d2 11f too.
 

Jeffrey Wolf

YouTube: Jeffrey B Wolf
I really like those changes, @Gilbagz. After reading your post, I've started to play footsies with F122, and while it's quite good, it can be tough to hit confirm sometimes, due to the 2nd hit being the part that does most of the work. So having the entire 3 hits be safe and the startup be faster? That's exactly what he needs, along with a quicker get off me poke, of course, as you list.

The only other thing I'd want, and this is just luxury, would be some sort of EX Air Hammer attack.
 

Jeffrey Wolf

YouTube: Jeffrey B Wolf
Oh, and NJP sword, like Outlaw Erron, would be nice, as other people have said. Also, instead of making F1 faster, if the first attack of the string was a sword slice, like the second hit, that would be sweet, but I'm just getting greedy now =)
 

Gilbagz

Joker here~
I really like those changes, @Gilbagz. After reading your post, I've started to play footsies with F122, and while it's quite good, it can be tough to hit confirm sometimes, due to the 2nd hit being the part that does most of the work. So having the entire 3 hits be safe and the startup be faster? That's exactly what he needs, along with a quicker get off me poke, of course, as you list.

The only other thing I'd want, and this is just luxury, would be some sort of EX Air Hammer attack.
yeah its ridiculously good in footsies, a mostly safe half screen launcher, would be broke if we could shave off the first hit for a faster string. the two parts of the sword string already anti air to an extent.

haha yeah air hammer is kinda useless, i mostly just use it to change my jump arc off of interactables. not the greatest.

a lot of the changes people want are just turning cryo in another generic 5050 character. the 5050 style of play isnt consistent enough. if they buff hammer to make it faster, it means that it would have to be more unsafe to compensate, which hurts his footsie game (or at at least the way i play it). Hammer is fine as it is, its already a high damage hard knockdown. Ex hammer being slow is fine too, its a mostly safe armoured launcher. Between all his armour options he has a complete system, he needs absolutely nothing.

The only other change i would ask for is make normal hammer -7. Its a 31f move that can still be punished by some characters on block. Keep the move at 31f, and just make it slightly safer. Or if you were to speed it up, keep it slower than 25f still. We don't need this character turning into another alien. Hammer is purely your safe special that you will use off of f4 as your safe check tool. On block its safe, and leaves you at a good range to play footsies still (i.e. backdash is still a huge factor).
 

Lokheit

Noob
F12 is NOT a good footsie tool... the total speed of whiffing the first hit to connect the second one is about the same than regular hammer, slower in fact IIRC (and you're getting punished if you go around throwing 30+ frames moves for footsies when everyone and their mother has a long reach move of 15 frames or faster. F12 is good after jump ins but not for footsies. And yeah I know the uppercut has sword range but that thing is unsafe and can't lead into a combo.

Cryo needs a string starting with the sword (there is no point on having sword reach if it's going to come slower than doing a quick run and then press another button) and most of SZs toolset is built to compensate for the fact that GM will have the klone protecting him, so Cryo (and UB) needs a tool to fight and defend himself without the klone.

A 16 frames sword starter (F122 without the first hit) wouldn't even be such a crazy tool when you look at the rest of the cast, but it would be good enough for the variation to get into the fight.

Give him that and maybe make the Air Hammer a tool you want to use instead of your worse option and the variation is pretty much set, no need of faster hammers, OH 111 or meterless vortex at all (none of those things solve his main problems anyway).
 
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Tanno

The Fantasy is the Reality of the Mind
If Cryo had faster Ice Hammer and an EX Air Ice Hammer, I would probably use this one for vortex to press my opponents. I hope they consider this.