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Match-Up Discussion - Liu Kang Liu Kang vs A-List cage

Wigy

There it is...
Johnny doesn't get checked by low fireball after a knockdowns and even if he does its possibly the riskiest thing ever.
Not really. Those fireballs are hard as shit to punish at any kind of distance unless you make a really solid read. Literally no blockstun
 

Zionix

AKA Ponkster
Not really. Those fireballs are hard as shit to punish at any kind of distance unless you make a really solid read. Literally no blockstun
I was punishing R1 alot when he tried to wake-up with them, crouch block check into F3 is an easy punish.

Flame fist beats cage 6/4 and A-list beats dragons fire *barely* 6/4 and that's only because cage d3 was buffed to 7 frames so you can stop f44 pressure after kangs d3, before that its might of been 7/3 kang for both variations because kang could low sweep for days.

Nobody cares too much about dualist but theres no way its a even or winning MU
 

Amplified$hotz

I like Tekken 8
I was punishing R1 alot when he tried to wake-up with them, crouch block check into F3 is an easy punish.

Flame fist beats cage 6/4 and A-list beats dragons fire *barely* 6/4 and that's only because cage d3 was buffed to 7 frames so you can stop f44 pressure after kangs d3, before that its might of been 7/3 kang for both variations because kang could low sweep for days.

Nobody cares too much about dualist but theres no way its a even or winning MU
What do you mean stop Kang's f44 after d3? It's like +20 on hit, no one can stop it. And on block the whole cast can interrupt it.
 

Wigy

There it is...
What do you mean stop Kang's f44 after d3? It's like +20 on hit, no one can stop it. And on block the whole cast can interrupt it.
It was a pain to do on reaction especially with b1.

Same with takeda, you're pretty free to pressure a lot of the time after a d3 on block unless the other person is baiting.

One bad poke and you're eating 30+ cause of b1. Rediculous footsie tool. After a d3, you used to only be able to trade a d1 with the b1 if u were frame perfect. If you're a frame off u eat a 30+% standing reset. It's still not great you have to be very on point to poke out of d3 and if he baits a d3 hes guaranteed a b12

@Orangutan duno if u wana chime in
 
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tafka Djinn

One for three off the roof
those fbs are one of the easiest things to punish with jc i do it all the time . run in bait . i main both and i think its 6-4 or 5.5/4.5 cage favor tbh
Now I'll agree about the punush, but I'm interested in hearing what makes you particularly feel it's in Cage's favor. You definitely have enough experience from both sides of that that I would love to hear your thoughts. I've always felt it was an even MU between A-List, and Flame Fist, given their toolsets it just feels like neither of them gains an effective edge.
 

Wigy

There it is...
those fbs are one of the easiest things to punish with jc i do it all the time . run in bait . i main both and i think its 6-4 or 5.5/4.5 cage favor tbh
Running in and crouching just opens your ass up to blockstrings. Have to make some really hard reads to get in the whole game.

They have next to no blockstun and arent mega neg, so really have to bait it. Opens you up to run in grab, run in b2 run in f44 etc.
 

SylverRye

Official Loop Kang Main
All you cage mains talking about flame fist, what do u do to counter him? Sit and block? Let him buff in your face? After windmill punches ive seen people just jump over liu and his next follow up whiffs. Or they d3 after windmill punches end since it beats parry and only loses to ex db2 or low fireball (only a maniac would end in that).

Only f213 buff windmill punches jail iirc. I dunno i just hate ff lol. Feels like hes a total stomper of people who dont know the mu. I think a cage who knows all his options beat him, just my opinion though.
 

Frenzy

Noob
All you cage mains talking about flame fist, what do u do to counter him? Sit and block? Let him buff in your face? After windmill punches ive seen people just jump over liu and his next follow up whiffs. Or they d3 after windmill punches end since it beats parry and only loses to ex db2 or low fireball (only a maniac would end in that).

Only f213 buff windmill punches jail iirc. I dunno i just hate ff lol. Feels like hes a total stomper of people who dont know the mu. I think a cage who knows all his options beat him, just my opinion though.
You're right but ending with windmill punches on block isn't the best way to play flame fist.
 

Frenzy

Noob
What is the best way to play him if u shouldn't end with WP on block?
In my opinion db2 is the best way to end a string on block. How you follow up after db2 can serve as a mind game. You have parry, f1, ex db2, ex fbf4, backdash and simply blocking as good ways to follow up.
 
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NaCl man

Welcome to Akihabara
In my opinion db2 is the best way to end a string on block. How you follow up after db2 can serve as a mind game. You have parry, f1, ex db2, ex fbf4, and simply blocking as good ways to follow up.
na after wp on block is where the mind games are. There is db2, exbd2, low fire ball , parry , sf cancels to any of these and sf cancels into wp or ex wp. You just change it up depending on the oponents reaction.
 

evolution07

It's too soon to get cocky.
Sometimes to build meter and increased chip, I will do F213 xx EX WP xx DD1 xx EX WP xx DB2, and end in D2 since most like to jump or continue blocking. The opponent will usually get hit by either the first ex WP or the second one lol. If they block both, it builds a good half bar and decreases the opponents health by a good 25%.

This is the only variation where u can just watch someone's health decrease so quickly from chip. :eek:

If I know the opponent tries to armor after a blocked WP, ex DB2 works well if the buff is already active, and so does BF2 if I see them jumping out.

My style of using FF is kinda basic but effective. I can play like a manic taking risks I shouldn't at times, such as tossing out fireballs from a distance, then doing a flying kick after. It works lol but very risky on block.

While I haven't checked the Liu forums, are there any FF matches I can watch from members here?
 

Bruno-NeoSpace

They see me zonin', they hatin'
I've been training the Flame Fist vs A-List matchup and there are some things that I know about that matchup that I want to share with you guys:

Beginning of the match: Most of the times, the A-List player will start the match with one of those 3 things - F3 or D4 or EX shadow kick, so, Flame Fist can use his parry against F3 and EX shadow kick; against the D4, Flame Fist can do a little walk back into low fireball, it might work against EX shadow kick.

Flame Fist's zoning vs A-List's zoning: At full screen, A-List fireballs can hit Liu Kang, so, don't stay totally at full screen, walk or run forward a little bit and throw some low fireballs because they will low profile A-List fireballs.
Flame Fist's fireballs has a small hitbox, so, against a lot of characters, the regular fireball and EX fireball will avoid even against crouching block... it's very stupid! But, against Johnny Cage, they don't avoid, so, you can use the regular and EX fireball.

Blockstrings: Kang's 1,1,2 / B3,4 and 4,4 into Shaolin Flame into Windmill punches will beat all Johnny's options;
Kang's F4,4 into Shaolin Flame into Windmill punches will beat most Johnny's options, I think that the only option that A-List will have against it, it's a backdash but only at midscreen.
 

Frenzy

Noob
I've been training the Flame Fist vs A-List matchup and there are some things that I know about that matchup that I want to share with you guys:

Beginning of the match: Most of the times, the A-List player will start the match with one of those 3 things - F3 or D4 or EX shadow kick, so, Flame Fist can use his parry against F3 and EX shadow kick; against the D4, Flame Fist can do a little walk back into low fireball, it might work against EX shadow kick.

Flame Fist's zoning vs A-List's zoning: At full screen, A-List fireballs can hit Liu Kang, so, don't stay totally at full screen, walk or run forward a little bit and throw some low fireballs because they will low profile A-List fireballs.
Flame Fist's fireballs has a small hitbox, so, against a lot of characters, the regular fireball and EX fireball will avoid even against crouching block... it's very stupid! But, against Johnny Cage, they don't avoid, so, you can use the regular and EX fireball.

Blockstrings: Kang's 1,1,2 / B3,4 and 4,4 into Shaolin Flame into Windmill punches will beat all Johnny's options;
Kang's F4,4 into Shaolin Flame into Windmill punches will beat most Johnny's options, I think that the only option that A-List will have against it, it's a backdash but only at midscreen.
I'd just like to add that I've been using f1 to beat out f3 at the start of the match. But parry is definitely a better option as it covers two out of the 3 ways they start matches. I just thought I'd add that though.
 
Running in and crouching just opens your ass up to blockstrings. Have to make some really hard reads to get in the whole game.

They have next to no blockstun and arent mega neg, so really have to bait it. Opens you up to run in grab, run in b2 run in f44 etc.
im talking about a list vs df and if i can make a kang scared to zone me with cage then the games alrdy nearly won lol. all liu kangs fbs are ridiculously easy to punish dude. do u know how many low fbs and b2s i have to get hit with. if a player loses to that then they deserve to lose as you have to guess wrong so much. dont forget guys also liu kang has no advancing strings . cage has faster pokes and a monster threat in the corner. i dont see what advantage kang has over a list. he will get in theres no stopping him unless you can really out player your opponent.
 

Zionix

AKA Ponkster
im talking about a list vs df and if i can make a kang scared to zone me with cage then the games alrdy nearly won lol. all liu kangs fbs are ridiculously easy to punish dude. do u know how many low fbs and b2s i have to get hit with. if a player loses to that then they deserve to lose as you have to guess wrong so much. dont forget guys also liu kang has no advancing strings . cage has faster pokes and a monster threat in the corner. i dont see what advantage kang has over a list. he will get in theres no stopping him unless you can really out player your opponent.
You have to determine what get in means. Because with kangs walk back speed two equally skilled footsie players kang has the advantage. Cage can only run in because the jumps are too floaty to be caught off guard, this means that cage has to run in, past a low a fireball, at a range that's punishable to guarantee a f3 punish into a dash cancel. If the f3 is blocked then its likely that it's a dash cancel on block which means that kang can b1 or f1 and start his pressure. If cage whiffs the f3 then the kang can just f44 and start pressure that way.

If you are using ex shadow-kick to punish a low-fireball then chasing them down and kang has no options to counter on wake-up then its a blow-out. I don't know what kangs options are outside of low-fireball, db3, fbf4 as a wake-up to stuff the pressure.

A-list barely wins because his pressure and armored reversal are fantastic. But it isn't a mop.
 

Amplified$hotz

I like Tekken 8
You have to determine what get in means. Because with kangs walk back speed two equally skilled footsie players kang has the advantage. Cage can only run in because the jumps are too floaty to be caught off guard, this means that cage has to run in, past a low a fireball, at a range that's punishable to guarantee a f3 punish into a dash cancel. If the f3 is blocked then its likely that it's a dash cancel on block which means that kang can b1 or f1 and start his pressure. If cage whiffs the f3 then the kang can just f44 and start pressure that way.

If you are using ex shadow-kick to punish a low-fireball then chasing them down and kang has no options to counter on wake-up then its a blow-out. I don't know what kangs options are outside of low-fireball, db3, fbf4 as a wake-up to stuff the pressure.

A-list barely wins because his pressure and armored reversal are fantastic. But it isn't a mop.
Whats so good about A-List's armored reversals? And Liu's pressure isn't as good but he can still quickly take a life bar. Cage's pressure isn't that much better IMO. As of now the matchup is even to me. Also not to mention how much meter Liu Kang builds in flame fist.
 

Zionix

AKA Ponkster
Whats so good about A-List's armored reversals? And Liu's pressure isn't as good but he can still quickly take a life bar. Cage's pressure isn't that much better IMO. As of now the matchup is even to me. Also not to mention how much meter Liu Kang builds in flame fist.
You need me to explain why cages armored reversal is better than DFs Kangs reversals?

I'm strictly talking dragons fire here. FF is a different MU entirely and should be treated as such.

I have little to no experience against a top FF player as most of them are noobs.
 

Amplified$hotz

I like Tekken 8
You need me to explain why cages armored reversal is better than DFs Kangs reversals?

I'm strictly talking dragons fire here. FF is a different MU entirely and should be treated as such.
Why does it matter if it's better? B1 blows all of cage's armor up for full combo. I'm confused on what you mean.
 
I haven't played mkx in months cause of Overwatch lol so I am not sure if my contribution would count. I think dualist vs alist is 5-5 or 4.5-5.5. I just think dualist deals with a-list pretty well. Df vs Alist? Honesty Idk but maybe 5-5.I don't play flame-fist but It could be 6-4(flame-fist). : )