Match-Up Discussion - Kitana Kitana MU Chart Created by xKhaoTikx & SonicFox

Vigilante24 said:

No Jax?

Click to expand...

I didn't even know I forgot him lol. 5-5 and I'll add it up there

i bodied laos boi with my catana where's my tag and put some respek on it too

Tbh, I don't see a reason to make an averaged mu chart when each variation is treated like an individual character in tournament play. But, yeah, pick up Assasin vs HQT and try to go 5-5.

Prinz said:

Tbh, I don't see a reason to make an averaged mu chart when each variation is treated like an individual character in tournament play. But, yeah, pick up Assasin vs HQT and try to go 5-5.

Click to expand...

Sonic thinks Kitana wins against HQT actually lol. Even I was like WTF

F/T I feel is 5/5.
Lackey handles float gimmicks pretty well and does decently vs mournful, but mournful beats vicious pretty convincingly and ruthless is just kinda meh in them all.

xKhaoTik said:

Sonic thinks Kitana wins against HQT actually lol. Even I was like WTF

Click to expand...

What were his reasons? I always thought she won the MU until I fought a good HQT that used the low lasser. Since then I think he wins it. But aside from low lasser not being able to be reflected I think she has an edge. I'd like to know what he's looking at in the MU for him to say she wins.

Airvidal said:

What were his reasons? I always thought she won the MU until I fought a good HQT that used the low lasser. Since then I think he wins it. But aside from low lasser not being able to be reflected I think she has an edge. I'd like to know what he's looking at in the MU for him to say she wins.

Click to expand...

Pretty much what you said, and the fact that he has a hard time dealing with her in the air and "she jumps over lasers" lol

Doombawkz said:

F/T I feel is 5/5.
Lackey handles float gimmicks pretty well and does decently vs mournful, but mournful beats vicious pretty convincingly and ruthless is just kinda meh in them all.

Click to expand...

F/T is a blur to me. That's all sonic knowledge lol. I do use mournful in the match tho.

xKhaoTik said:

All 3 variations are fine against Kang, but RS stands out the best. Reflect is something Kang has to worry about and if she has a life lead, she can hold it in any variation by ducking our jumping the fireballs, making Kang come to her. Dragon Fire is the best variation to use against her, but that's because of the pressure, and even then, she can handle that.

Click to expand...

I disagree in somethings: I think Dualist loses to all her's variations; DF loses to mournful and RS because of the zoning, but against Assassin I think it's even; FF wins against Assassin because Kang can zone her very well and Kang can use F4 against her parry, FF wins against RS because he can zone RS as well, she has a reflect but Kang can trick her reflect - regular fireball, then low fireball to low profile the regular fireball, FF loses to Mournful because she can zone him.

xKhaoTik said:

Pretty much what you said, and the fact that he has a hard time dealing with her in the air and "she jumps over lasers" lol

F/T is a blur to me. That's all sonic knowledge lol. I do use mournful in the match tho.

Click to expand...

Yeah, I mean it's not a MU we usually face so it's kinda blank on our side too. I just know Lackey gets a free-in on mournful zoning because charge is projectile immune and trip guards, and his EX upper gets in there too.

I mean I agree with the Tremor number but what's with the 5.5 stuff? Is that just a side effect of the averaging all 3 variations?

xKhaoTik said:

Pretty much what you said, and the fact that he has a hard time dealing with her in the air and "she jumps over lasers" lol

F/T is a blur to me. That's all sonic knowledge lol. I do use mournful in the match tho.

Click to expand...

Probably he meant jump over the low lasers as a read, which makes sense, conditioning your opponent that you can punish them for throwing low lasers takes out that option for them. Or at least from those players that allow you to shut down their options.

Hadn't thought about it though, now I wanna play this MU a bit more.

agree with the tremor/mileena numbers

xKhaoTik said:

Assassin does just fine against any variation, especially Ninjustu. D4 is just a nuisance, nothing more.

Her punishing f2 is a huge plus. Parry in the neutral is a godsend, which means less f2 and b2. Mixing up parry with fans makes it hard for him to tele. B2 gets punished hard. She wins the air battle because her j2 is faster than any of his jump attacks, plus air fans and ex rising blades.

Idk why s3 punishing fans was even brought up. You shouldn't be ending strings with fan anyway.

Inferno definitely doesn't beat her, especially assassin. Hellfire is even.

Click to expand...

Well said. We've already had this discussion on the Scorp board & there's nothing more to be said.

Bruno-NeoSpace said:

I disagree in somethings: I think Dualist loses to all her's variations; DF loses to mournful and RS because of the zoning, but against Assassin I think it's even; FF wins against Assassin because Kang can zone her very well and Kang can use F4 against her parry, FF wins against RS because he can zone RS as well, she has a reflect but Kang can trick her reflect - regular fireball, then low fireball to low profile the regular fireball, FF loses to Mournful because she can zone him.

Click to expand...

?
The zoning doesn't mean anything if you don't have a life lead. The zoning itself is not difficult to get thru. Yea you can punish my parry with a low, but Kitana does the same thing to your parry and for way more damage. And how are you "tricking" reflect? You throw a FB, I reclect. Doesn't matter which one you throw because it's getting reflected. You can mix it up if you want to but I'll just hold the reflect.

The Highlander said:

I mean I agree with the Tremor number but what's with the 5.5 stuff? Is that just a side effect of the averaging all 3 variations?

Click to expand...

Yea pretty much. The 4-6 or 6-4 matches were the ones that definitely felt like an advantage or disadvantage. The ones with .5 are the ones that felt like an advantage or disadvantage, but not as strong as the ones we put as 6-4 or 4-6. The advantage or disadvantage is there, but just slightly.

xKhaoTik said:

Yea pretty much. The 4-6 or 6-4 matches were the ones that definitely felt like an advantage or disadvantage. The ones with .5 are the ones that felt like an advantage or disadvantage, but not as strong as the ones we put as 6-4 or 4-6. The advantage or disadvantage is there, but just slightly.

Click to expand...

Why is Jason even?

xKhaoTik said:

?
The zoning doesn't mean anything if you don't have a life lead. The zoning itself is not difficult to get thru. Yea you can punish my parry with a low, but Kitana does the same thing to your parry and for way more damage. And how are you "tricking" reflect? You throw a FB, I reclect. Doesn't matter which one you throw because it's getting reflected. You can mix it up if you want to but I'll just hold the reflect.

Click to expand...

I'll elaborate it better:

Flame Fist vs Assassin:
6-4

Flame Fist wins the zoning game - 10% damage with Shaolin Flame ON, faster projectiles and low fireball can low profile her fans.
Maybe draw in the rush down game - You're right about the parry; she does more damage on hit, but Flame Fist does more damage on block; her Assassin Impale is 17f on startup and -16 on block, so Liu Kang can punish it and armor break it; Windmill Flurry is 12f on startup, it armor breaks a lot of her things and it's 2in1

Flame Fist vs Royal Storm:
5-5 (I tought it was 6-4 for FF, but I was wrong)

Flame Fist wins the zoning game - 10% damage with Shaolin Flame ON, faster projectiles and low fireball can low profile her fans; against her reflect, Liu Kang can zone her very well only using regular fireball because if she reflects it, Liu Kang just need to duck it or use low fireball to low profile it. Her reflect is 15f on startup, it's not like Kenshi's reflect that is 7f, so you have to be very prepared to do it. She is taking more risk than Liu Kang.
Royal Storm wins the rush down game - Same damage; Fan-Nando is a very good footsie tool, and Liu Kang is weak in footsies. Fan-Nando is a pain in Liu Kang's ass

Flame Fist vs Mournful
4-6

Mournful wins the zoning game - Faster projectiles and mid/overhead projectiles. Her zoning destroys Flame Fist
Draw in the rush down game - Flame Fist does a little bit more damage; her D1 into shadow kick is very annoying and her EX glaive is very good to go rush down.

Espio said:

I don't see how Kitana doesn't on average beat Cyrax at least 6-4. She seems to control the entire pace of the match and with net nerfs it just does not at all seem feasible that he would give her an even 5-5 run for her money, this match up just feels extremely easy and comfortable. She should probably give Cyber Sub-Zero a huge problem too, but even more so since she shuts down a lot of his mobility pretty well.

Goro even if averaging all variations should still be 5-5 honestly. She outzones him, but gets outfootsied and dies hard in the corner to him. Run speed and other major buffs definitely equalized it even more so than it has always been. It's actually one of the most balanced match ups in the game in my opinion. I can write an in depth breakdown if interested.


This system makes her seem way better than she probably realistically is because it by design covers up really hard match ups (Grandmaster Sub-Zero and HQT Predator for example) in a veil of averages. When people fight Kitana, they're gonna use the most optimal variation, not Cryomancer, Master of Storms or Kuatan Warrior. They're gonna use the best variant. Kitana is good, but winning match ups against nearly half the roster might be being too optimistic. Kung Lao, Tanya and Bo Rai Cho are very agreeable being in her favor.

Raiden, Quan Chi, Kotal and some other ones are very puzzling.

Click to expand...

i thought kuatan warrior IS goro's best variation?

Doombawkz said:

Yeah, I mean it's not a MU we usually face so it's kinda blank on our side too. I just know Lackey gets a free-in on mournful zoning because charge is projectile immune and trip guards, and his EX upper gets in there too.

Click to expand...

Damn. Hitting myself again for not recording my matches with Bio. 3-2 his way. It started with Vicious I believe, however Mournful absolutely crushs his zone game. Forgo the use of grounded glaives nigh all together. You will crush any attempts at zoning and blind rushins. At max range you force F/T literally play your way. Chip chip chip chip confirm on airglaives and bait boss girl...victory.

Fucking Lackey comes around with rolls and charges. Didnt adapt in time..lose.

Assassin comes into play parries and patience. Win.

I believe boss girl returned afterward...it was horrible..boucing fans off little girls. Nightmares even..like..dude..and dont get me started on the d1 AA. Feelings...hurt.

Repeat Mournful...then Lackey. Obama out. Tears...Lab. Runback?

Bruno-NeoSpace said:

Flame Fist vs Royal Storm:
5-5 (I tought it was 6-4 for FF, but I was wrong)

Flame Fist wins the zoning game - 10% damage with Shaolin Flame ON, faster projectiles and low fireball can low profile her fans; against her reflect, Liu Kang can zone her very well only using regular fireball because if she reflects it, Liu Kang just need to duck it or use low fireball to low profile it. Her reflect is 15f on startup, it's not like Kenshi's reflect that is 7f, so you have to be very prepared to do it. She is taking more risk than Liu Kang.
Royal Storm wins the rush down game - Same damage; Fan-Nando is a very good footsie tool, and Liu Kang is weak in footsies. Fan-Nando is a pain in Liu Kang's ass

Click to expand...

You can throw like 4-5 fireballs at Kitana and she's in your face, her walk and run speed are the best in the game and his fireballs aren't that hard to get through. At close range she destroys every FF's gimmicks. Using FF's FBF4 (windmill punch) is asking for a full combo punish by Kitana. Without it FF is like no variation Liu Kang. She definitely wins FF. And remember ex rising fan is available for 3 variations

xKhaoTik said:

This chart represents the MU #s for ALL 3 VARIATIONS COMBINED. This means we analyzed each variation, looked at how each one fairs against each other, and ultimately, came up with a #. Some MUs I had no idea about, but since @SonicFox5000 plays against those characters alot, I had no choice but to go with his judgement.

Alien: 4-6
Jason: 5-5
Kung Lao: 6-4
Cassie: 4.5-5.5
Kenshi: 4-6*
Scorpion: 5-5
Sub Zero: 5.5-4.5*
Mileena: 4-6
Jacqui: 4-6*
Takeda: 5-5
Sonya: 5.5-4.5
Kung Jin: 5.5-4.5
Tanya: 6-4
Bo Rai Cho: 6-4
Leatherface: 5-5
Predator: 5-5
Jax: 5-5
Shinnok: 5-5
Kano: 5-5
Johnny: 5-5
Erron Black: 4.5-5.5
Ermac: 5-5
Kotal: 5.5-4.5
Reptile: 5.5-4.5
Ferra Torr: 5.5-4.5*
D'Vorah: 4.5-5.5
Raiden: 6-4
Quan: 5.5-4.5
Goro: 6-4*
Tremor: 6-4
Cyber Sub: 5-5
Sektor: 4.5-5.5
Cyrax: 5-5*
Smoke: 5-5


*These are the matches I had no idea about. In the case of SZ, I have no idea what unbreakable is about. Those are sonic's numbers.

***Triborg had to be split up. All 4 variations play completely different and feel like different characters***

Winning: 14
Losing: 8
Even: 14

Feel free to leave your thoughts.

Click to expand...

This makes the Shaolin - Kitana MU seem good for Kitana when its not. Ancestral and Bojutsu struggle tho. This is confusing.

xKhaoTik said:

Sonic thinks Kitana wins against HQT actually lol. Even I was like WTF

Click to expand...

Derp lol. Kitana community needs to level up apparently

I don't see why Kitana loses to Kenshi... Moreover, I think Mournful has quite an advantage vs him.

ismael4790 said:

I don't see why Kitana loses to Kenshi... Moreover, I think Mournful has quite an advantage vs him.

Click to expand...

Probably because of Possessed. IMO Mournful is actually the worst against Possessed, because her zoning become irrelevent in this matchup. she loses all the trade and the glaive startup is so slow that Kenshi can teleport on reaction all day, if he doesn't get a full combo he gets some chip or a throw

You didn't put liu kang in your op