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MKX and Command Grabs

D_Matt_Ma

D_Matt_Ma

Sheeva isn't Goro's wife. Goro is her husband.
Let's rephrase the complaint so most can understand.

Some command throws DO hit duckers. Goro, ferra torr, and Jason can do it. But the throws can be low profiled, something that doesn't happen in other games.

True grapplers don't need to combo into throws. They just do them because they're that good. Grundy was the only true grappler in NRS games, but he sucked because NRS hates grapplers.

FUCK NRS.
 
Shark Tank

Shark Tank

I don't actually play these games
They suck because in a string a ling a ding dong based game ticks are easier to see and we have a slight problem, when you do a tick normal you hope they block it because if not your throw will whiff and you ain't hit confirming it so it's a guess where as if you are wrong you are going for a ride, and THEN you have to read whether or nor they'll jump out of it which is you guess wrong you are going for a ride. So your opponent has two opportunities to get out if your mix-up. But that's not really the only part.

The bigger part is because over in 50/50 land, instead of having to make 2 reads, raiden or erron or any of these other 50/50 mongoloids have to make a guess(or make their opponent guess whatever) and bam full screen wall carry dish with a 30-40% damage and a little oki on the side...or your safe. It's basically the point that throws are the inferior mix-up tool compared to the low/oh. And all of those low/OH characters have another 50/50 in vanilla throw which does around the same damage as many cmd throws. So in conclusion throws need to do 25% thank you have a nice day.

Also the low profiling and grab immunity bullshit doesn't help. CMD Throws ignoring armor would also help. Or do a grundy and makes throws give you buffs and shit. Kotal's could have given him buffs to his specials like sun ray/disc etc and make them better each time he lands sun god choke, but all he gets is a damage bonus.

Lastly, if the OP was rhetorical I didn't read it I'm just ranting.
 
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Farpafraf

Farpafraf

Noob
buyacushun said:
I'm trying to enjoy MKx but I need help understanding a design choice. I thought projectiles not clashing was interesting. The gravity based juggle system is cool. I liked Tekken's way of doing things and this reminds me of that. Pretty much the whole game acts 3D lol. The 50/50 throw is annoying but I can live with it. That's not the grabs I'm talking about. My gripe is with command grabs. The damage barely beats a regular throw. Most of them switch sides or leave your opponent more than a dash away so you get barely any advantage. But the worst part for me is that people can attack through you're grab even if you spend meter. In some cases (probably the whole roster) you can attack through the grab and get a whole combo leading to 30% in most cases. Grapplers usually end up somewhere in the middle of a tier list. Only in MKx do I feel there is no reason to use a grappler in this game. Maybe I'm missing something to the MK meta. So I'm asking the TYM community: Why? Why can you stay grounded against command grabs and either trade/dodge/full on punish them with strings?

I personally don't think grabs should even trade. If you are grounded during a command grabs active frames, you should be grabbed no if, ands, or buts. I'll still be using a grappler in this game. Either Sun God KK or EB because I think they have the style I'm also looking for. But they seem to have the best grabs imo.
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*your
 
Circus

Circus

Part-Time Kano Hostage
If you read a command grab you could get a full punish by neutral jumping as most characters. The payoff for landing it is 14% average. It's skewed when it comes to risk reward. When you read most overhead or low combo starters you get full punished aswell but the payoff for combo starters for lows and overheads is a full huge combo for many.

The reason why it's so skewed for command grabs is that you could tick from low pokes, making them strong tools. Honestly though, not strong enough to base an entire strategy on though. Characters that depend on there command grabs for openings like Wrestler Jax and Ferra/Torr should really be rewarded for grabs more. At least 22% seems more reasonable imo.
 
Wetdoba

Wetdoba

All too easy...
Shout outs to me doing an armored command grab on Erron Blacks F1 overhead string, a fully grounded attack that doesnt put him in the air at all and therefor has zero reason to be throw immune, and having it completely ignore my grab and punish me into a full combo for no meter when I lose a bar and have to hold his set up.

Also shout outs to Erron Black having the fastest run speed in the game in addition to all of his other tools (a initial design that does not scream grappler to me) also being the best grappler in the game with the most tick throw set ups. While Torr, Goro, ect with the biggest hurtboxes and slowest run and walk speeds get boned
 
D_Matt_Ma

D_Matt_Ma

Sheeva isn't Goro's wife. Goro is her husband.
Invincible Salads said:
so let me get this straight, you want an unblockable move that you can cancel into from a string to be even MORE effective at hitting and give even MORE advantage? lol, k
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It's a throw. You can jump it. That's the norm in other fighting games. Throws that deal huge damage, give wakeup, AND come out fast is also the norm in other fighters
 
buyacushun

buyacushun

Normalize grab immunity.
D_Matt_Ma said:
Let's rephrase the complaint so most can understand.

Some command throws DO hit duckers. Goro, ferra torr, and Jason can do it. But the throws can be low profiled, something that doesn't happen in other games.

True grapplers don't need to combo into throws. They just do them because they're that good. Grundy was the only true grappler in NRS games, but he sucked because NRS hates grapplers.

FUCK NRS.
Click to expand...
I'm quoting your post because I don't want people focusing too much on the wrong thing. I never said ducking against throws was a problem. Multiple people have pointed out grabs that catch duckers too. It also brings insight into some nice balancing decisions by not giving characters like EB and cassie actual command grabs.

My main gripes is the only positive is a risky guess during blocking leading to 17-19% depending on character. Plus all the other problems I had listed before. I'll be playing a grappler because I like what command grabs add. They just don't add much and MK is the only time I feel like I can make justifiable reasons to not play a command grab character.

Invincible Salads said:
so let me get this straight, you want an unblockable move that you can cancel into from a string to be even MORE effective at hitting and give even MORE advantage? lol, k
Click to expand...
I don't know what other fighters you play, if any, but in SF, BB, GG, Tekken command grabs are very effective in tacking on meaningful damage plus giving you an offensive oki advantage. In skullgirls, Cerebella, the most "traditional grappler" in that game has tick throws using 2 different command grabs plus an anti air grab thats unblockable during your opponent's upward rise from jumping. All these doing great damage plus give combos which can lead to even more resets. Oh and she has a 360 super grab that definitely hurts. I don't remember how much advantage you get off of it though but you can DHC it.

Point being what I'm asking for is actually the norm in fighters. It's what gives grapplers their scary meaning behind being a "grappler".

King gets an honorable mention because once he does grab you, you have to legit guess what grab combo he is going to do and time your break.

Farpafraf said:
*your
Click to expand...
This really hurts. Not only did i use "you're" incorrectly, I use "you", "your" and "you are" correctly. Well played.
 
Tony at Home

Tony at Home

Noob
Man, it's been a while since I've played injustice, so correct me if I'm wrong...

But would Shaazm really qualify under the technical term of grappler? Weren't each of his grabs ones that would only hit you if you were either blocking high or blocking low? Because that's really no different from just having lows and overheads.
 
D_Matt_Ma

D_Matt_Ma

Sheeva isn't Goro's wife. Goro is her husband.
Tony at Home said:
But would Shaazm really qualify under the technical term of grappler? Weren't each of his grabs ones that would only hit you if you were either blocking high or blocking low? Because that's really no different from just having lows and overheads.
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No. Throws whiff if blocked correctly and full whiff on jumpers. They are inferior to attacks, which is why I proudly chant FUCK NRS on them being clueless on what they're doing and just listening to the fan boys screaming
 
buyacushun

buyacushun

Normalize grab immunity.
Tony at Home said:
Man, it's been a while since I've played injustice, so correct me if I'm wrong...

But would Shaazm really qualify under the technical term of grappler? Weren't each of his grabs ones that would only hit you if you were either blocking high or blocking low? Because that's really no different from just having lows and overheads.
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Kind of yes and no. It still being grab allows it to work slightly differently. Plus I think he had guaranteed throws during some blocked strings. Maybe just one. That wouldn't be possible with a regular low or overhead.
 
Olcadan13

Olcadan13

mkx apologist
wait wait wait wait wait....

Bane was broken? BANE? I mained Bane in Injustice and i felt he was a solid character, how was he broken?
 
sinosleep

sinosleep

Noob
Throw immunity always has been and always will be complete and total fucking bullshit. If my throw is 7 frames, and your punch is 9 my throw should land regardless of whatever stupid animation your character is in. I've got no problem whatsoever with throws having to hit high/low whatever in order to land but if your poke is slower than my throw it should ALWAYS land.
 
Chaosphere

Chaosphere

The Free Meter Police
D_Matt_Ma said:
No. Throws whiff if blocked correctly and full whiff on jumpers. They are inferior to attacks, which is why I proudly chant FUCK NRS on them being clueless on what they're doing and just listening to the fan boys screaming
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What do fanboys screaming have anything to do with how command grabs work in this game?
 
D_Matt_Ma

D_Matt_Ma

Sheeva isn't Goro's wife. Goro is her husband.
Chaosphere said:
What do fanboys screaming have anything to do with how command grabs work in this game?
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NRS only "fixes" things that fan boys scream about. Since there aren't enough people screaming about command throws being garbage for characters that need them (because those characters don't have a cult following or hate for) NRS will never care
 
llxPeeKABooxll

llxPeeKABooxll

Noob
If "true" command grabs were put in the game there is no way they would be cancellable lol. You would be able to just do a random string into free command grab damage. Command grabs in MKX wouldn't be cancellable, would be unblockable, some w/ invincibility frames on start-up, have a particular hitbox (anti air or reg), have tons of recovery, and moderate to quick start-up depending on hitbox. My guess is that NRS didn't put a legit grappler type character in the game because they didn't want to deal with true command grabs being in the game and people crying that an unblockable/invincible grab is cheap.
 
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Chaosphere

Chaosphere

The Free Meter Police
D_Matt_Ma said:
NRS only "fixes" things that fan boys scream about. Since there aren't enough people screaming about command throws being garbage for characters that need them (because those characters don't have a cult following or hate for) NRS will never care
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Oh. I think command grabs are fine.
 
Invincible Salads

Invincible Salads

Seeker of knowledge
buyacushun said:
I'm quoting your post because I don't want people focusing too much on the wrong thing. I never said ducking against throws was a problem. Multiple people have pointed out grabs that catch duckers too. It also brings insight into some nice balancing decisions by not giving characters like EB and cassie actual command grabs.

My main gripes is the only positive is a risky guess during blocking leading to 17-19% depending on character. Plus all the other problems I had listed before. I'll be playing a grappler because I like what command grabs add. They just don't add much and MK is the only time I feel like I can make justifiable reasons to not play a command grab character.



I don't know what other fighters you play, if any, but in SF, BB, GG, Tekken command grabs are very effective in tacking on meaningful damage plus giving you an offensive oki advantage. In skullgirls, Cerebella, the most "traditional grappler" in that game has tick throws using 2 different command grabs plus an anti air grab thats unblockable during your opponent's upward rise from jumping. All these doing great damage plus give combos which can lead to even more resets. Oh and she has a 360 super grab that definitely hurts. I don't remember how much advantage you get off of it though but you can DHC it.

Point being what I'm asking for is actually the norm in fighters. It's what gives grapplers their scary meaning behind being a "grappler".

King gets an honorable mention because once he does grab you, you have to legit guess what grab combo he is going to do and time your break.



This really hurts. Not only did i use "you're" incorrectly, I use "you", "your" and "you are" correctly. Well played.
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how do traditional grapplers function then? if command grabs can get so rediculous, don't they have a downside besides being able to jump em?
 
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