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The true reason stage interaction shouldn't be allowed in tournaments

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CD jr

Noob
lol im just here praying to god this game doesnt get shit on by other communities early because we cant decide yes or no on something so simple. You knows whats sad? alot of the people wanting interactables on i never heard of them or seen them once in a tourney. not that their opinion doesnt matter but if they dont compete why should their opinion have an effect on ME or US tournament players? ill just stop here cause the next few lines might be considered assholeish but i feel some type of way on these players having an opinion on how IM going to play at a tourney. One thing to remember the outside communities are looking in and players from those communities are interesting in playing this game and believe me these players dont like interactables whatsoever and nothing you guys say will change their mind cause these players are veterans and they just get it. we are competitors who play for pride, bragging rights, and money let US tournament players decide how WE gonna compete against each other if you never been to a tournaments and dont play competitively your opinion SHOULD be irrelevant by default as fucked as that may sound. you guys want to keep interactables on online? or when playing with your friends? then shit go ahead!! im gonna play with them on FOR FUN online and casually but i refuse to listen to what any non tourney player has to say on this topic cause they dont have the experience or knowledge that we tournament players have. with that being said i bet if you take all tournament players on this site and make THEM vote im pretty sure interactables being off will have the most votes.
 

Kitana Prime

Top-tier at everything but the characters I choose
lol im just here praying to god this game doesnt get shit on by other communities early because we cant decide yes or no on something so simple. You knows whats sad? alot of the people wanting interactables on i never heard of them or seen them once in a tourney. not that their opinion doesnt matter but if they dont compete why should their opinion have an effect on ME or US tournament players? ill just stop here cause the next few lines might be considered assholeish but i feel some type of way on these players having an opinion on how IM going to play at a tourney. One thing to remember the outside communities are looking in and players from those communities are interesting in playing this game and believe me these players dont like interactables whatsoever and nothing you guys say will change their mind cause these players are veterans and they just get it. we are competitors who play for pride, bragging rights, and money let US tournament players decide how WE gonna compete against each other if you never been to a tournaments and dont play competitively your opinion SHOULD be irrelevant by default as fucked as that may sound. you guys want to keep interactables on online? or when playing with your friends? then shit go ahead!! im gonna play with them on FOR FUN online and casually but i refuse to listen to what any non tourney player has to say on this topic cause they dont have the experience or knowledge that we tournament players have. with that being said i bet if you take all tournament players on this site and make THEM vote im pretty sure interactables being off will have the most votes.
Interactable differences aside, we're on the same page here.
 

Slips

Feared by dragons. Desired by virgins.
Because in real life there has to be a physical location where Arena's/stadiums are built and the humans who live around these arenas or fields will root for their home teams. Sports do not allow home teams to make physical alterations that change the competition's balance.

Interactables in relation to Sports let's say football would be the equivalent of allowing teams to use Cheerleaders as extra blockers to gain physical advantages, Baseball pitchers get to throws 3 balls at you simultaneously, Soccer players climbing on the goal posts and drop kicking Goalies in the back of the neck when they are attempting to block a PK etc etc
First of all, you don't even know how good the interactables are in MKX. None of you do. Which is why this thread is a joke. Secondly, we are coming from a game (Injustice) where the interactables played an even bigger roll than they will in MKX (NRS specifically said this). Nobody really complained about them too much once they were patched and balanced out in Injustice, so why fret about something which a) NRS now knows how to balance out now and b) NRS said they won't play as much as a factor as they did in Injustice. We already know they are blockable for God's sake.

Thirdly, your analogies are exaggerated, cartooney and your point is actually just completely wrong. Interactables isn't the equivalent being able to use their cheerleaders in the game or throw 3 balls at once or use their mascot to dance on the field while they are playing or whatever stupid analogy you want to throw in. C'mon man. And Sport's can't make physical alterations that change the competition's balance? Are you insane? Do you think playing on grass is the same as playing on turf? Do you think an outdoor stadium is the same as playing in an indoor stadium? Do you think one baseball field has a fence 302 feet from home plate is the same as another basbeball field that has a fence 436 feet from home plate? The Seattle Seahawks cruised to two straight Super Bowls because they got homefield advantage in the playoffs where the crowd noise is insane and the players can't hear eachother on the field so they have to use hand signals. The crowd is literally called "The 12th Man".

Teams can make whatever physical alterations they want to help get the advantage but in the end, both teams have to play the same game on the same field and they both have to deal with the conditions they are put in whether it was meant to be in their favor or ends up working against them. I ended up playing Forever King in Injustice in tournament on the 'dumpster' stage and while it played a roll it didn't determine the set. Learn to play the game and deal with your opponent before you start blaming your environment.
 
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Duck Nation

Dicks with a future
The reductio ad absurdum to this is that just by even playing different characters, people have an unfair advantage at the start of the round. You're standing at a certain range from the opponent by default, which may favor one player's character a lot more than the other's.

Professional sports that people bring up are about the worst possible analogy too. There's inherently a huge number of basically unfair or "imbalanced" elements based on real humans being part of teams. Yao Ming just happens to be freakishly tall and therefore can put the basketball more easily out of reach of his opponents and can dunk with less difficulty, for example. Should we start banning football quarterbacks who are both exceptional runners and have excellent throwing arms, too, instead of one or the other? There's almost no such thing as a perfectly fair game, but we play them anyways for fun. Anyone asserting that fairness is more important than fun is in a bankrupt position.

Also, @CD jr's line about "this is what we've always done" is almost too absurd to consider, but since it's here I guess it has to be addressed. Stage control is not a brand new element for 2D fighters; SNK did a lot of stuff in the mid-90s that had elements of it. Nobody ever tilted at the idea of playing without it, because the games were clearly designed around certain elements and made them unique. The reductio ad absurdum of this argument winds up asking why you should change anything, ever. If you want a game with less stage control elements, well, god, just keep playing Street Fighter 4 forever.
 

CD jr

Noob
The reductio ad absurdum to this is that just by even playing different characters, people have an unfair advantage at the start of the round. You're standing at a certain range from the opponent by default, which may favor one player's character a lot more than the other's.

Professional sports that people bring up are about the worst possible analogy too. There's inherently a huge number of basically unfair or "imbalanced" elements based on real humans being part of teams. Yao Ming just happens to be freakishly tall and therefore can put the basketball more easily out of reach of his opponents and can dunk with less difficulty, for example. Should we start banning football quarterbacks who are both exceptional runners and have excellent throwing arms, too, instead of one or the other? There's almost no such thing as a perfectly fair game, but we play them anyways for fun. Anyone asserting that fairness is more important than fun is in a bankrupt position.

Also, @CD jr's line about "this is what we've always done" is almost too absurd to consider, but since it's here I guess it has to be addressed. Stage control is not a brand new element for 2D fighters; SNK did a lot of stuff in the mid-90s that had elements of it. Nobody ever tilted at the idea of playing without it, because the games were clearly designed around certain elements and made them unique. The reductio ad absurdum of this argument winds up asking why you should change anything, ever. If you want a game with less stage control elements, well, god, just keep playing Street Fighter 4 forever.
Your usage of big words in a forum intimidate me :( how about we just let interactables rock AND play that mode with all the assists in tournament cause i mean adding more mechanics that into the game that will change the playing field of player 1 and 2 no matter how big or small the change is OK right? thats it guys LETS PLAY IN TOURNAMENT WITH ASSISTS YES!! at least i can use rains bubble special as assist since he is not in the game as a playable character :( ya make me laugh let me get back to enjoying life i forgot tym makes me depressed.
 
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AK L0rdoftheFLY

I hatelove this game
This has nothing to do with nothing.

Editt for clarification because reasons:

The analogy would be the rules. As in what the officials call. Our 'field' automatically includes these things. I get where you're going but this is off.
to your point...Altitude could be considered an "interactable". So could Stadium / crowd noise. Deflated balls @Tom Brady
 

haketh

Noob
we are competitors who play for pride, bragging rights, and money let US tournament players decide how WE gonna compete against each other if you never been to a tournaments and dont play competitively your opinion SHOULD be irrelevant by default as fucked as that may sound.
It's a good thing theirs a fair amount of players here pro leaving them on that do go out to tournaments, do go out to compete, do want the bragging rights, do have the Pride.
 

chores

bad at things
The reductio ad absurdum to this is that just by even playing different characters, people have an unfair advantage at the start of the round. You're standing at a certain range from the opponent by default, which may favor one player's character a lot more than the other's.

Professional sports that people bring up are about the worst possible analogy too. There's inherently a huge number of basically unfair or "imbalanced" elements based on real humans being part of teams. Yao Ming just happens to be freakishly tall and therefore can put the basketball more easily out of reach of his opponents and can dunk with less difficulty, for example. Should we start banning football quarterbacks who are both exceptional runners and have excellent throwing arms, too, instead of one or the other? There's almost no such thing as a perfectly fair game, but we play them anyways for fun. Anyone asserting that fairness is more important than fun is in a bankrupt position.

Also, @CD jr's line about "this is what we've always done" is almost too absurd to consider, but since it's here I guess it has to be addressed. Stage control is not a brand new element for 2D fighters; SNK did a lot of stuff in the mid-90s that had elements of it. Nobody ever tilted at the idea of playing without it, because the games were clearly designed around certain elements and made them unique. The reductio ad absurdum of this argument winds up asking why you should change anything, ever. If you want a game with less stage control elements, well, god, just keep playing Street Fighter 4 forever.
Do you think it is meaningful to differentiate between the rules/location of the game and the people playing it? e.g. players vs field, or character vs level. To me they seem different.
 

chores

bad at things
First of all, you don't even know how good the interactables are in MKX. None of you do. Which is why this thread is a joke. Secondly, we are coming from a game (Injustice) where the interactables played an even bigger roll than they will in MKX (NRS specifically said this). Nobody really complained too much about them too much once they were patched and balanced out in Injustice, so why fret about something which a) NRS now knows how to balance out now and b) NRS said they won't play as much as a factor as they did in Injustice. We already know they are blockable for God's sake.

Thirdly, your analogies are exaggerated, cartooney and your point is actually just completely wrong. Interactables isn't the equivalent being able to use their cheerleaders in the game or throw 3 balls at once or use their mascot to dance on the field while they are playing or whatever stupid analogy you want to throw in. C'mon man. And Sport's can't make physical alterations that change the competition's balance? Are you insane? Do you think playing on grass is the same as playing on turf? Do you think an outdoor stadium is the same as playing in an indoor stadium? Do you think one baseball field has a fence 302 feet from home plate is the same as another basbeball field that has a fence 436 feet from home plate? The Seattle Seahawks cruised to two straight Super Bowls because they got homefield advantage in the playoffs where the crowd noise is insane and the players can't hear eachother on the field so they have to use hand signals. The crowd is literally called "The 12th Man".

Teams can make whatever physical alterations they want to help get the advantage but in the end, both teams have to play the same game on the same field and they both have to deal with the conditions they are put in whether it was meant to be in their favor or ends up working against them. I ended up playing Forever King in Injustice in tournament on the 'dumpster' stage and while it played a roll it didn't determine the set. Learn to play the game and deal with your opponent before you start blaming your environment son.

I don't understand the football stadium reference. The stuff you are listing is an advantage. If you removed stadium differences football would be more fair. Is that not true?
 

Duck Nation

Dicks with a future
You usage of big words in a forum intimidate me :( how about we just let interactables rock AND play that mode with all the assists in tournament cause i mean adding more mechanics that into the game that will change the playing field of player 1 and 2 no matter how big or small the change is OK right? thats it guys LETS PLAY IN TOURNAMENT WITH ASSISTS YES!! at least i can use rains bubble special as assist since he is not in the game as a playable character :( ya make me laugh let me get back to enjoying life i forgot tym makes me depressed.
Not even going to respond other than to note for everyone's sake that this is an absolutely laughable strawman and no one should touch it.
 
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Kitana Prime

Top-tier at everything but the characters I choose
to your point...Altitude could be considered an "interactable". So could Stadium / crowd noise. Deflated balls @Tom Brady
Not sure how you got that...I meant the 'field' as the literal field parameters. 100 yds long, 40 yds wide, 10 yd endzones are the equivalent of ALL stages + interactables. The collective of all stages + interactables equals 1 field. Which everyone shares.

Anyways, these sports analogies are trash, lets be done with them.

...and as a lifetime (well, since '96) St. Louis Rams fan, I don't respect anything New England.

/salt
 
if you ask my personal opinion about interactables in mkx. well i think they are weak and very weak i really don't think they will be broken or anything close to that.

however that is not the problem with them the problem with them is that at the beginning of a match player 1 does not have the same interactable to use as player 2.

one more time this is not about the interactables themselves it is about how they are positioned in the stages
 

AK L0rdoftheFLY

I hatelove this game
My first post goes over this. I'm not typing it again, but I'll respect your opinion even though I disagree.
I think this 'advantage' is being super upplayed here and the ability to block/punish is being SEVERLY downplayed.

I'll continue reading, but I'm done here. This is a pure agree to disagree deal we've got going on here.
The game will be out soon, we shall see.

In South Florida though, interactables will be on.
Well the truth is that we don't know yet if that is accurate. I can see how playing with interactables can be fun and there were times in Inj where I didn't mind it but if I'm being asked my opinion, I say get rid of them. They seem more like a casual players mechanic than a die hard tournament players mechanic.

There will always be characters who's tools allow them to take advantage of interactables...how big or small that advantage is is unknown.

I can see why you guys want to use them but can't you also see why they might be an issue?
 

Duck Nation

Dicks with a future
Do you think it is meaningful to differentiate between the rules/location of the game and the people playing it? e.g. players vs field, or character vs level. To me they seem different.
No, not at all. They come down to the same thing, especially used as an analogy. It's just one that was self-defeating.
 
And I've yet to see some one bring out a valid argument on how there's an advantage at the beginning of the fight to one player over the other.

"Because they're there" isn't saying anything much.

In this description, where's the clear advantage? It may seem that way, but it seems no one is accepting (or even stating) the obvious fact that player 2 him/herself has to worry about player 1 countering (baiting/punishing) their interactable strategy. This isn't one sided in the slighest. Again, who's to say thrown or escape interactables will even be safe? We've seen them BOTH get stuffed in the Kombat Kasts without meter, and I dont think the invincibility for MB lasts the entire way. Especially when you can attack out of them, that would be free; and something to complain about (If you had fully armored escape + free pressure)

Btw, I understand you guys' concerns, no matter which way ANYONE cuts it, this is simply about not making MKX Injustice 2.0. I get that interactables left a sour taste (I played Gadget character Harley and got fucked by interactables), but this si not that, and the 'advantage' you speak of is closer to non-existent than it is anything else.
There is without a doubt that there is an advantage to whoever has the interactable on their side. It doesn't matter that it can be countered or if the interactable is mediocre. That player is given an additional option, and therefore has more of an advantage in comparison to if interactables are turned off. Fireballs, uppercuts, teleports, etc. all have counters and various uses, but it is still better to have all of these options than having none of them.

That being said, I don't really care whether they are turned on or off because I'm not competing. I do believe that players should test them and come to a conclusion once the game comes out, and it is up to those competing to make a decision. I just think everything should be well thought out in the case that I do play competitively and the decision does affect me.
 

AK L0rdoftheFLY

I hatelove this game
Not sure how you got that...I meant the 'field' as the literal field parameters. 100 yds long, 40 yds wide, 10 yd endzones are the equivalent of ALL stages + interactables. The collective of all stages + interactables equals 1 field. Which everyone shares.

Anyways, these sports analogies are trash, lets be done with them.

...and as a lifetime (well, since '96) St. Louis Rams fan, I don't respect anything New England.

/salt
lol

I'm just saying that even in pro football, some stages (aka stadiums) can benefit the home team due to the aforementioned "interactables"

crowd noise
altitude
outdoor vs indoor

And it is still considered fair. If that analogy holds any weight (which it doesn't) than this could help you justify interactables.
 

Kitana Prime

Top-tier at everything but the characters I choose
Well the truth is that we don't know yet if that is accurate. I can see how playing with interactables can be fun and there were times in Inj where I didn't mind it but if I'm being asked my opinion, I say get rid of them. They seem more like a casual players mechanic than a die hard tournament players mechanic.

There will always be characters who's tools allow them to take advantage of interactables...how big or small that advantage is is unknown.

I can see why you guys want to use them but can't you also see why they might be an issue?
Certainly. But I believe at the absolute worst, they're a non-issue. Game was designed this way, it's how we'll play. i honestly think the only worthwhile argument is variation lock or not. Because the balance in MKX will not be affected by interactables imo.

Injustice was a far different beast because unblockable, and interactable archetypes (Power, Gadget, Acrobat) <- That is where the imbalance came from imo
 

coolwhip

Noob
And this thread is proof why we won't be any less unbearable in MKX than we were in Injustice, despite everyone's false sense of optimism. Game isn't even out yet, nobody knows how this shit will work, yet legitimate top players and NRS legends are speaking with absolute certainty as if they have any idea how this will function. Baffling really.

By the way, what if interactables are easily punishable? if one player has an intractable on his side at the beginning of the round, there's a read to be made, and maybe there's a risk by going for it. So there's no advantage or anything. Then again, maybe that's not how this will work. Point being, nobody has any idea what the fuck they're talking about.
 

Jeddite

Soul Kollector
you guys can sweet talk all you want about interactable been fun and blockble and taking less damage now but i have yet to see some one bring out a valid argument on why a stage giving a position advantage at the beginning of the fight to one player over the other is fair game.... any one please?
That would be because you work from a faulty premise. Even presuming that there is a positional disparity in map design due to asymetical interactions, you have yet to show advantage. What is to say a player 1 & player 2 don't have the same advantage from different interactables on each side of the map?

The answer: nothing. You haven't shown advantage and neither has anyone else. Because, as this thread continues to speak to (and some of us continue to ignore?), we don't yet know if advantage even exists.
 

CD jr

Noob
I think we should just play with assists on too i mean we do have the option to use them no? or NOT use them you know just like interactables. so now i fight to play in tournaments with assists AND interactables on WHO IS WITH ME!!! Lets play marvel in MKX guys i mean the option IS there right? so screw it lets just play with assists.
 

Kitana Prime

Top-tier at everything but the characters I choose
And this thread is proof why we won't be any less unbearable in MKX than we were in Injustice, despite everyone's false sense of optimism. Game isn't even out yet, nobody knows how this shit will work, yet legitimate top players and NRS legends are speaking with absolute certainty as if they have any idea how this will function. Baffling really.

By the way, what if interactables are easily punishable? if one player has an intractable on his side at the beginning of the round, there's a read to be made, and maybe there's a risk by going for it. So there's no advantage or anything. Then again, maybe that's now how this will work. Point being, nobody has any idea what the fuck they're talking about.
So does that mean let it rock? That is what it comes down to.
 

Slips

Feared by dragons. Desired by virgins.
I don't understand the football stadium reference. The stuff you are listing is an advantage. If you removed stadium differences football would be more fair. Is that not true?
Right. And nobody complains about any of it. Not the fans, not the league, not he coaches, not the players. It's part of the game. It adds depth, fun and some spice to it. It makes things interesting. Nobody wants crazy interactables like rooftop Injustice where it's so unfair you don't even have much of a chance. That's why stuff like that got patched. But it's ok to have outside factors that make things interesting. If you want what's 'most fair' then you run into the argument of everyone playing the same character on the same stage ect. which people have already said in this thread and we all agree is boring as hell.

It's ok to have advantages and disadvantages within good taste. That is something Injustice accomplished and MKX it will be even less of a factor (I'm repeating myself now).
 

coolwhip

Noob
So does that mean let it rock? That is what it comes down to.
Well, I'm not going to say let it rock or not since I don't go to tournaments and shouldn't have an input in this. However, if you're asking me for an opinion, the only thing I'll say is the sensible thing to do is wait for the game to come out, play it, see how interactables work, understand them, understand how to counter them, determine the effect they have, and make an informed decision accordingly. It might sound too good to be true but it's better than whatever this thread is achieving.
 

AK L0rdoftheFLY

I hatelove this game
Certainly. But I believe at the absolute worst, they're a non-issue. Game was designed this way, it's how we'll play. i honestly think the only worthwhile argument is variation lock or not. Because the balance in MKX will not be affected by interactables imo.

Injustice was a far different beast because unblockable, and interactable archetypes (Power, Gadget, Acrobat) <- That is where the imbalance came from imo
True and I'm not hella scared but the mechanics that give free interactables still potentially remain.

Quan chi hell bat shit
Sonya drone
Kang orb setups
Raiden orb setups
There are more but I can't remember at the moment.

All in all you can't say with certainty that it WILL NOT affect match ups. In fact It was those exact tools that made the power characters that could abuse them, even able to abuse them.

MMH orbs
Zod trait etc...

They might have even taken notes from trait and gave characters MORE tools that have the potential to abuse interactables in MKX. We just don't know yet. All I am saying is that it is slightly a little naive to assume interactables won't favor certain characters more than others.
 
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