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Match-up Discussion Qwark's Subzero matchup chart

Smarrgasm

What's a Smarrgasm?
Well anyway ive had enough talk on it for today. I say its 5-5 especially after playing with cyus a lot more recently. And after watching that video im salty at sub cause i was so close to being in winners finals of that bnb =/
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
Sub can also punish a spaced B21+2 with 22 AS its happening. 22 takes priority. Sub doesn't need to block it or risk trying to jump it.
*badly spaced

and it depends on the frames, sub wont get priority when 1+2 is one frame away from hitting, for example.
 

STB Sgt Reed

Online Warrior
The fact that you have Kitana and Kung Lao at the same score as Liu Kang, Raiden, and Scorpion makes me not take this seriously at all.

Kitana is one of Sub Zero's worst matchups. No way she's a 4-6 and if she is... then that should mean the other listed should be a 5-5 or better.

No.
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
The fact that you have Kitana and Kung Lao at the same score as Liu Kang, Raiden, and Scorpion makes me not take this seriously at all.

Kitana is one of Sub Zero's worst matchups. No way she's a 4-6 and if she is... then that should mean the other listed should be a 5-5 or better.

No.
as ive said in a previous post, id use way different numbers in decimals. consider kitana a "hard" 6 4 IMO and the others as easier ones, theres just no trying not to fuck up what you really mean with the current number system in this game

E.G kitana is very close to 7-3 imo but scorpion is not entirely 6 4, id have to use decimals to say what i really think
 

STB Sgt Reed

Online Warrior
as ive said in a previous post, id use way different numbers in decimals. consider kitana a "hard" 6 4 IMO and the others as easier ones, theres just no trying not to fuck up what you really mean with the current number system in this game

E.G kitana is very close to 7-3 imo but scorpion is not entirely 6 4, id have to use decimals to say what i really think
Kitana is a "hard" 3-7. It's much easier for her to get the life lead than it is for sub to get it. Now, he can lame her out fairly well if he gets the lead, but it's just not as easy for him to get that lead. And as others said... there is no containment vs Kitana and she can jump for free for days. One mistake... bye bye 50%

I can see Liu Kang being 4-6. But the other two are 5-5.
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
Kitana is a "hard" 3-7. It's much easier for her to get the life lead than it is for sub to get it. Now, he can lame her out fairly well if he gets the lead, but it's just not as easy for him to get that lead. And as others said... there is no containment vs Kitana and she can jump for free for days. One mistake... bye bye 50%

I can see Liu Kang being 4-6. But the other two are 5-5.
hard 3 7 is worse than kabal lol

7 is very strong adv, anything more is overkill

raiden i cant see any less than 6 4, id call him a hard one too.
 

NRF CharlieMurphy

Kindergarten Meta
your point? he punishes me just fine when i jump, expecting lightning.

stop trying to start shit and in general spam this thread only looking to criticise, there's a warn button for a reason ;)
i'm not trying to start anything

you're the one blowing up the tippy top Shang for a MU you know very little about.
You posted a video of your most recent tourney which shows how far behind your offline rain is in terms of execution and overall gameplay.

You can warn me all you want.... but i'm not starting anything. You don't budge from your opinion on anything.... you just counter fight the other person.

Lets just agree to disagree and leave it at that.
 

1man3letters

Alpha Tarkatan - Moderator
Moderator
we talked about this before, baraka needs to have better meter management otherwise he cant cope with sub

+ sub can better keepaway and can build meter while doing so if baraka is meterless, thats what i mean

about mileena, she has no way to get in without taking risks, she outzones sub but can't really damage him without being risky about it, its all about the lifelead, sub keeps it infinitely easier and the corner is where young mileena gets her sex ed.
no i wasnt talking about baraka mu at all, thats why i mentioned 1st we talked about that mu enough on psn to both know our views on it.
when we both talk im sure you know its not the thing of "im right and you wrong" like it can be on here sometimes,just talking information and i think not even mr.brady himself has broke down the baraka/sub mu as much as you and i have lol

i dont see why mileena would ever be chasing sub,so i dont see why her unsafe ways of getting in are a issue really.
as for risk for getting damage,besides jumping in which stupid to do on sub what risks does mileena have to take?
you cant outzone her so you have to come to her, you cant just sit behind ice clones or you'll always be at health disadv even after you catch a iceball trade, its seems like sub might have to play risky than he normally would,sure mileena is risky 24/7 lol

i think in the mu sub seems to have the same problem baraka has in his disadv mu's, when a char can out lame you,your in bit of trouble
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
i'm not trying to start anything

you're the one blowing up the tippy top Shang for a MU you know very little about.
You posted a video of your most recent tourney which shows how far behind your offline rain is in terms of execution and overall gameplay.

You can warn me all you want.... but i'm not starting anything. You don't budge from your opinion on anything.... you just counter fight the other person.

Lets just agree to disagree and leave it at that.
it was mentioned many times within the same video youre telling me that hidan wasnt performing as usual at all, on a regular day i rarely get a set off of him.

im not blowing up anyone, me and wound are discussing matchups nice and politely, is the concept of discussion being interpreted in your mind as blowing someone up, guns blazing and insults catapulting?

when its the fifth time i have to say that i dont appreciate spam posts, even after youve insulted my knowledge of pretty much every matchup within just your first post, continuing just to say that hidans rain is years behind smarrs. whats the point of that exactly?

this is about matchups, not drama between subzero players, if you have an issue with me, take it to PM.
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
no i wasnt talking about baraka mu at all, thats why i mentioned 1st we talked about that mu enough on psn to both know our views on it.
when we both talk im sure you know its not the thing of "im right and you wrong" like it can be on here sometimes,just talking information and i think not even mr.brady himself has broke down the baraka/sub mu as much as you and i have lol

i dont see why mileena would ever be chasing sub,so i dont see why her unsafe ways of getting in are a issue really.
as for risk for getting damage,besides jumping in which stupid to do on sub what risks does mileena have to take?
you cant outzone her so you have to come to her, you cant just sit behind ice clones or you'll always be at health disadv even after you catch a iceball trade, its seems like sub might have to play risky than he normally would,sure mileena is risky 24/7 lol

i think in the mu sub seems to have the same problem baraka has in his disadv mu's, when a char can out lame you,your in bit of trouble
what will mileena do when sub has the lead? if sub can lame out kabal, kitana and more with a lifelead, what chance does mileena stand? he can put a wall, his strings are better than hers, he has armour and once in the corner its very bad for her
 

STB Sgt Reed

Online Warrior
IMO:

6-4 - Baraka
5-5 - Jade
7-3 - Kano
3-7 - Kung Lao
4-6 - Noob Saibot
5-5 - Rain (I'm agreeing with Smarrgasm, but I don't know how to play this MU)
8-2 - Sheeva (D4 rapes her everything... wakeups, armor, strings)
5-5 - Sonya
3-7 - Cyrax
3-7 - Freddy (very unsure of this MU... but projectiles rape Sub)
1-9 - Kenshi
4-6 - Liu Kang
6-4 - Quan Chi
6-4 - Scorpion
3-7 - Sindel (another I have only a small idea about)
7-3 - Stryker (gonna agree with Charlie... even though I don't fair to well vs Espio)
5-5 - Ermac
6-4 - Johnny Cage
3-7 - Kitana
?-? - Mileena (I have no idea... I'm free to this whore)
5-5 - Raiden
5-5 - Sektor
?-? - Skarlet
5-5 - Sub Zero
?-? - Jax
2-8 - Kabal
6-4 - Nightwolf
5-5 - Reptile
4-6 - Shang Tsung
4-6 - Smoke
7-3 - Cyber Sub Zero
 

1man3letters

Alpha Tarkatan - Moderator
Moderator
what will mileena do when sub has the lead? if sub can lame out kabal, kitana and more with a lifelead, what chance does mileena stand? he can put a wall, his strings are better than hers, he has armour and once in the corner its very bad for her
yea ive said that a few times that i know the corner is big problem for her against sub but if mu's were done taking the corner as the most important thing baraka's mu numbers would be alot different,ya know?
his strings are better but dont sub best strings start with 2? which doesnt hit her.
yea he has armor but its full combo punishable so its not all roses and he doesnt need to use armor for her frametraps anyway,ice clone will pop him out of them and sais recover very fast to ex slide on "reaction",on reads,sure no problem

mileena coming back from a life lead is not just a problem against sub,its the chars main problem.
when she doesnt have the life lead is when you have to play the way shes built and just be a risky fucker.
but thats why i mentioned about why sub has to come to her and how that he his being risky in doing so...
from the start of the mu if he wants to take control of the life lead he must take risks,so he has to take the 1st risk.
other thing mileena is built well to do is punish people taking risks so from "round1 fight" she has both zoning adv and the adv of knowing sub must do something fast to gain life lead but more importantly stop her from being in control of being about to lame it out or be forced to played unsafe.
if sub doesnt get the life adv like this at start i feel the mu goes more downhill for him until he gets the corner
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
yea ive said that a few times that i know the corner is big problem for her against sub but if mu's were done taking the corner as the most important thing baraka's mu numbers would be alot different,ya know?
his strings are better but dont sub best strings start with 2? which doesnt hit her.
yea he has armor but its full combo punishable so its not all roses and he doesnt need to use armor for her frametraps anyway,ice clone will pop him out of them and sais recover very fast to ex slide on "reaction",on reads,sure no problem

mileena coming back from a life lead is not just a problem against sub,its the chars main problem.
when she doesnt have the life lead is when you have to play the way shes built and just be a risky fucker.
but thats why i mentioned about why sub has to come to her and how that he his being risky in doing so...
from the start of the mu if he wants to take control of the life lead he must take risks,so he has to take the 1st risk.
other thing mileena is built well to do is punish people taking risks so from "round1 fight" she has both zoning adv and the adv of knowing sub must do something fast to gain life lead but more importantly stop her from being in control of being about to lame it out or be forced to played unsafe.
if sub doesnt get the life adv like this at start i feel the mu goes more downhill for him until he gets the corner
sub and his players excell in patience, he will get the lead whenever he gets the lead, not like she can do anything about it, he doesnt have to be risky, just walk and duck accordingly.

didnt say anything about using ex slide on her frametraps or on reaction to anything, just saying that armours an option

the corner in this matchup is important and worth mentioning, youre telling me you dont account for rakas corner game in his matchups? subs strings start with 2, 9f but the second 2 comes out on the 11th frame i believe, hes still faster

what if mileena doesnt get the lifelead? at least subzero can slowly come in while not being risky, how will she come in when he can raise a wall anytime to beat most of her options and pretty much force her to play risky or die assuming the sub doesnt fuck up?

subzero doesnt have to take risks, just the lifelead, doesnt matter when it happens
 

zaf

professor
Ok so ermac vs sub

Ok so 312, 12 whiffs. Who cares. Dont use it without a jip. Problem solved.

Iafb blows up d4s. Use that up close if needed. If not needed back off to where tkp is safe and hang out there.

Ermac is not a rush down character, so i don't see the need to make it more obvious by saying 312 whiffs. Beating a dead horse there.

Saying 312 whiffs is kinda year 1 mk, when we are waaaay passed that now.
 

1man3letters

Alpha Tarkatan - Moderator
Moderator
sub and his players excell in patience, he will get the lead whenever he gets the lead, not like she can do anything about it, he doesnt have to be risky, just walk and duck accordingly.

didnt say anything about using ex slide on her frametraps or on reaction to anything, just saying that armours an option

the corner in this matchup is important and worth mentioning, youre telling me you dont account for rakas corner game in his matchups? subs strings start with 2, 9f but the second 2 comes out on the 11th frame i believe, hes still faster

what if mileena doesnt get the lifelead? at least subzero can slowly come in while not being risky, how will she come in when he can raise a wall anytime to beat most of her options and pretty much force her to play risky or die assuming the sub doesnt fuck up?

subzero doesnt have to take risks, just the lifelead, doesnt matter when it happens
ive mentioned myself a few times at this point how the corner is a huge issue for mileena in the mu, i also mentioned how everywhere else mileena controlls better.
im not saying you have to go balls out risky but even your reply there you see that sub has to do something first, slowly or not. and in that hes playing mileena game or more importantly to mileenas adv.

that would make the 2nd 2 in that string 2 frames...
2 takes 9, 2nd 2 takes 10 so you can only hit her on the 19th frame not using d4, mileena fastest combo starters normals are 13 and 14 so shes def not "slower" when going toe to toe with sub normals (outside d4)
 

STB Shujinkydink

Burning down in flames for kicks
please explain why

other than restriction of 224 and 214 clone in fear of a trance punish i dont see whats going bad for subby Z
The main reason being is I can skydrop iceball on reaction and go into rune trap. And although its not the best idea if need be I can break a clone in the corner with ex skydrop. Small hitbox also equals some strings being uppercutted...no 21 staggering
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
ive mentioned myself a few times at this point how the corner is a huge issue for mileena in the mu, i also mentioned how everywhere else mileena controlls better.
im not saying you have to go balls out risky but even your reply there you see that sub has to do something first, slowly or not. and in that hes playing mileena game or more importantly to mileenas adv.

that would make the 2nd 2 in that string 2 frames...
2 takes 9, 2nd 2 takes 10 so you can only hit her on the 19th frame not using d4, mileena fastest combo starters normals are 13 and 14 so shes def not "slower" when going toe to toe with sub normals (outside d4)
what is mileenas adv? to slowly back herself in the corner while building one bar tops from all the whiffed sais? she has sub par zoning

true about normals but isnt mileeena standing when shes using those moves? roll is also heavily punishable

sub has to do something first, that could be anything from a sai read and slide to a d4 212 chip
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
The main reason being is I can skydrop iceball on reaction and go into rune trap. And although its not the best idea if need be I can break a clone in the corner with ex skydrop. Small hitbox also equals some strings being uppercutted...no 21 staggering
and sub can slide skulls on reaction

uppercut can be baited for way more damage than the uppercut would do

how do you break a clone in the corner with skydrop? only thing i can think is jumping on top of it and skydropping but that'd get you punished hella + waste a bar you desperately need

only way quan builds meter in this mu is by throwing fullscreen skulls and after 212 clone to check sub, jump distance skulls are a possibility but theyre heavily punished if read, too risky.

when cornered, quan is dead, rune trap means he cant break either
 

1man3letters

Alpha Tarkatan - Moderator
Moderator
what is mileenas adv? to slowly back herself in the corner while building one bar tops from all the whiffed sais? she has sub par zoning

true about normals but isnt mileeena standing when shes using those moves? roll is also heavily punishable

sub has to do something first, that could be anything from a sai read and slide to a d4 212 chip
as per most mu discussion threads we going around in circles. so like i said at start,its at very worst a 5-5 but prob small adv mileena
outside the corner you are playing mileena game,so unless the mu starts and ends in the corner i dont see why sub has the adv, .5 or not.
each to there own, not going to make a big deal outta making ya think one way or another.numbers are numbers
 

STB Shujinkydink

Burning down in flames for kicks
and sub can slide skulls on reaction

uppercut can be baited for way more damage than the uppercut would do

how do you break a clone in the corner with skydrop? only thing i can think is jumping on top of it and skydropping but that'd get you punished hella + waste a bar you desperately need

only way quan builds meter in this mu is by throwing fullscreen skulls and after 212 clone to check sub, jump distance skulls are a possibility but theyre heavily punished if read, too risky.

when cornered, quan is dead, rune trap means he cant break either
Im not saying Sub zero doesnt have advantages in this MU, because he does. Im just saying its 5-5.
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
as per most mu discussion threads we going around in circles. so like i said at start,its at very worst a 5-5 but prob small adv mileena
outside the corner you are playing mileena game,so unless the mu starts and ends in the corner i dont see why sub has the adv, .5 or not.
each to there own, not going to make a big deal outta making ya think one way or another.numbers are numbers
what i meant by her getting nothing, what is she doing to get the lifelead? her projectiles dont even hit him, shes a risky, less damaging and less capable of zoning version of kitana

she cant get the lifelead bad safely

she cant keep the lifelead for long

IMO its at worst a 5 5 for sub and thats pushing it