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Match-up Discussion Sub-Zero Guide Feedback

I'm having trouble landing the n/j 1, b1,2 ~ 2,1,4 part of the combo.
I cant get the 2,1,4 to come out at all. If I just mash 2 he will do the 2,2,2 sword combo but I cant for the life of me get that first 2 to come out.
 

Gaiden

Injustice
I'm having trouble landing the n/j 1, b1,2 ~ 2,1,4 part of the combo.
I cant get the 2,1,4 to come out at all. If I just mash 2 he will do the 2,2,2 sword combo but I cant for the life of me get that first 2 to come out.
The 2,1,4 must be slightly delayed, spamming won't work xD, just wait till the animation from b1,2 ends then input 2,1,4 BF4 in succession, that should work :) Goodluck!
 

RayRokka

Noob
I played Sub Zero all day today and have his BnB's down. Sub when piloted correctly has always been Top Tier, the nature of his move set makes him solid.

Paulo Garcia has always played on the cautious side when balancing him. The reason? He can trade with anyone and win. I am actually really surprised he has combos that do over 33%

If you have good Yomi and reactions a good Sub is really hard to beat. This is where tiers come in. A perfect Sub vs. a perfect "X" will start having trouble if the other character is tiered higher.

Teleports do not matter as long as you have good fundamentals.
 

oZii

Noob
I played Sub Zero all day today and have his BnB's down. Sub when piloted correctly has always been Top Tier, the nature of his move set makes him solid.

Paulo Garcia has always played on the cautious side when balancing him. The reason? He can trade with anyone and win. I am actually really surprised he has combos that do over 33%

If you have good Yomi and reactions a good Sub is really hard to beat. This is where tiers come in. A perfect Sub vs. a perfect "X" will start having trouble if the other character is tiered higher.

Teleports do not matter as long as you have good fundamentals.
I am slowly being swayed by Sub-Zero as my main was scorpion. I like the fact that to me Sub-Zero controls the pace of the match completely. I think Nightwolf and raiden are his toughest matchups. I really enjoy playing Sub-Zero sometimes you can add the Timer as one of his weapons lol.
 

Dark_Rob

Noob
I am slowly being swayed by Sub-Zero as my main was scorpion. I like the fact that to me Sub-Zero controls the pace of the match completely. I think Nightwolf and raiden are his toughest matchups. I really enjoy playing Sub-Zero sometimes you can add the Timer as one of his weapons lol.
Agreed on Nightwolf and Raiden. With Nightwolf its the reflect and that damn unblockable lightning. I try and bait the lightning and jumping towards Nightwolf to punish the hell out of him. But you really gotta be quick, and EX Lightning is like impossible to react to.
Raiden of course has his stupid fast teleport, which means no ice balls. And when Sub cant throw ice balls it gives him a sad face.....like this------:mad:
 
With dash-blocking being able to break ice clones, won't Subby see a drop in the tier list? The clones are a huge part of his gameplay. Of course, Subby could "bait" a block-dash, but punishing it isn't exactly easy.

Subby might still be good for mid-level play, but I could see high-level players breaking the clones quite easily and thus dropping his viability.
 

Hates

Noob
If they're dash blocking at you, you have options. At its most simplistic, move up and take a throw mixup when they break the clone. Also bear in mind that it's still a risky maneuver if they screw up, so I'll take that all day. If nothing else, putting the clone on the screen, even against a player comfortable with dash blocking to eliminate it, limits that opponent's options to a degree and takes up his mental resources, which Sub Zero can exploit very well.
 

zYn

Noob
Also (and correct me if I'm wrong) - but dash blocking exists only as a standing block...so keep pressure with ice balls and clones and when they try to move in with dash blocking, ice slide.

Comes out fast, and obviously if they block low it's punishable, but if you time it well I think it'll be a good way to catch an opponent off guard - especially if they are so focused on dash blocking at you to avoid clone.
 

Raidenwins

Raiden Practitioner
I still don't understand why Sub-Zero is higher tier than Raiden (although not much higher; according to Tom Brady Sub-Zero is#1 and Raiden #2). True, Sub-Zero can zone like no other with the ice clone and then ice balls and keep pressure, just like more than one person has already explained, but Raiden's teleport (fastest in the game) negates his options to a great degree. As soon as you see Sub-Zero clone you can teleport behind him (and punish??). You can do the same thing when he throws an ice ball. Also, Raiden's Electric Fly has super armor, meaning it can go through ice balls (don't know about an ice clone).

So, without his strongest tools, or even just one of them, Sub-Zero will have a very hard time pressuring Raiden. Just my imo from 2 weeks of playing.
 

Jandek

Noob
Any ideas on how to handle fast low projectiles (namely kabal's saw), I don't have much experience as I have mostly just been scrub crushing my roommates as of now, but last night I got beat three times in a row by my roommate spamming low saw and mixing it up with other projectile or quick run.

Now I realize that is a horrible and shitty kabal strategy, but as sub the low knock down and speed of the saw really gave me problems. It is WAY faster than freeze and jumping it seemed to get me hit by the speed dash kabal has. The only things I could do were ex slide to or turtle but guessing right was not in my favor yesterday
 

zYn

Noob
In every game you'll find people that are really good at spamming projectiles and they win a lot of games.

Try learning how to dash block. Basically it's wave dashing by canceling dashes into block mid way through...helps you move in a lot faster. Normally I'd say you want to just work on controlling your space with Kabal, but seeing as your friend just spams projectiles, I would definitely try learning that skill.
 

UPR_Nova

Noob
If nothing else, putting the clone on the screen, even against a player comfortable with dash blocking to eliminate it, limits that opponent's options to a degree and takes up his mental resources, which Sub Zero can exploit very well.
If you run into an opponent that takes even a split second to decide what tactic to use against the ice clone, then you have got him all day. There are quite a few options. If the opponent is the dash block type that likes to destroy clones, catch him with an enhanced ground freeze. Unblockable, and that leads into some really frostified combos. You have the slide because dash blocking is a high block especially if you leave that clone in the air. Catch the opponent with the slide, get in close and pull off a good combo.

Of course, these aren't the safest (especially the ground freeze; landing that beast is dominate), but you can force opponents to get pretty predictable with Sub. See how they react when you send freezes, clones, slides and ground freezes their way. Typically you can immediately determine how they will react and adjust accordingly. Obviously, the more advanced the opponent is, the tougher it will be to predict, but with this icy beast, one opening can do it for you.

Another way to get out of that zoning concept is to become an aggressive Zero. Come out hunting with this guy. You don't have to wait until the opponent makes a mistake, force him to make the mistake. I know this is unorthodox for the typical Zero player, but getting more offensive with this character puts him in the top tier. I wish I knew how to be more complete on offense as I would dominate most opponents. To me, Sub-Zero has the best defensive package on the game. Couple that with a punishing offensive attack with quick counters and persistent, relentless combo play (and always good blocking) this character is above and beyond the definition of a beast. Clone as a counter instead of blocking and work the slide when you are certain it will hit. I think most Subs overuse the specials. Yes, it builds the meter, but getting up close and personal is highly effective with this character in my opinion. I don't see zoning as a first option simply because his freezes can be punished because of their slow throw and charge rates.

Look at the speed in which Brady plays this guy. He comes out like a beast and it is effective, and to me, this is the appropriate way to play. Obviously this guy is probably the best with Zero, so he makes it look easy, but I would suggest to stop backing up so much and bring the pain. Sub-Zero 24/7/365.

 
That is a very nice post topper.

I am just worried about the viability of close-range ice clones. If Sub-Zero uses a clone at this range, I believe the opponent (with good reflexes) can dash-block the clone before Sub-Zero can recover in time to punish. Close-range clones are such a huge part of Subby's game.

I can dash-block Subby's ice clone quite well. I will have to see how much dash-blocking affects Subby's zoning; dash-blocks are quick and not easy to punish. So far it's not looking good.
 

UPR_Nova

Noob
It can be tough to get through a decent dash-blocker. This is why I find ice cloning to be a counter advantage to punish sloppily timed combos and counters from the opponent. Rough example: instead of blocking a shadow kick from Cage, clone and punish (heavily). This is why I am attempting to see if rushing and being the aggressor with Sub is a viable option, which I think with a well-thought offensive gameplan and patience (which most Sub players always have) will give you great results. Against some opponents, the aggressive approach probably isn't the way to go, but with most I feel it would be best suited for Sub. I am currently a 60/40 leaning to defense and I would like to make that 60 be offense; maybe even 70. To me this just feels right. You do have those characters out there like Raiden, but this guy is fast anyway...his teles and superman are beastly to almost everyone. I know I'll get hit a few times during a match with those no matter the character.

Thanks for the reply darkfroggy. When the PSN comes up (if ever) I would like to see an effective dash-blocker through clones. I haven't experienced that yet.
 
I know it has already been asked about but the advice given didn't help me get it. Is there any good way to get the timing down for the b12, 214 after the neutral jump punch?

Every time I try I either finish the combo with b121 or just do a random 4 either way it doesn't come out as a 214.
 

Dark_Rob

Noob
I know it has already been asked about but the advice given didn't help me get it. Is there any good way to get the timing down for the b12, 214 after the neutral jump punch?

Every time I try I either finish the combo with b121 or just do a random 4 either way it doesn't come out as a 214.
As soon as you land from the NJP you must dash foward and immediatly go into B+1,2. If you are getting B+1,2,1 then you are mashing the inputs. Do it calmy and precisely. You can only hit each input once. Go into practice mode and just do B+1,2. You will see it is only 2 button presses. The length of the animation is probably making you press buttons more than once to "make sure it comes out". This is not neccesary in this game, the moves are bufferable. Once you are able to hit B+1,2 with ease practice adding in the NJP,dash foward before it.
Practice not mashing the inputs and only hitting each one once. It really is just this: U+1(or 2, whatever your fancy) F,F,B+1,2,2,1,4.
Unlike Street Fighter you dont need to time the moves in conjunction with whats happening on screen(mostly) Just do it right and the moves will come out.
 
I know it has already been asked about but the advice given didn't help me get it. Is there any good way to get the timing down for the b12, 214 after the neutral jump punch?

Every time I try I either finish the combo with b121 or just do a random 4 either way it doesn't come out as a 214.
The only way you can get b121 is if you're mashing or at least hitting unnecessary buttons. Do not mash, precise inputs help.

First of all, you have to dash after the neutral jump punch. Secondly, just try to get the timing for b12, and then a 2 - only input the neutral 2 once. If the 2 doesn't come out, it was too early. If the 2 doesn't combo, the 2 was too late. You have to wait to completely recover from the ice pick before you can act again, it's not a kombo chain from b12 to 214. You can't buffer it.

Edit: Darnit, beat to it lol.
 
Thanks a lot for the input. I figured out the timing. I kept trying to do it right after the ice dagger struck like one of the previous posters mentioned but realized that for the way my mind works it's easier for me to wait to see them hit the ground after the ice dagger hits. Then they bounce back up and get hit by the 2 that starts the 212 then slide.

I guess my big question now is... the 22, freeze, 214, slide does 29% as opposed to 31% with the slightly longer one that has the NJP into b12, 212 slide (31% and 35% respectively with enh. Slide.) But the first is much easier to do and has 3 fewer hits to have someone breaker you on so is the first one I listed not really used competetively or is it something people just switch up every so often when they feel like it?
 

Dark_Rob

Noob
Thanks a lot for the input. I figured out the timing. I kept trying to do it right after the ice dagger struck like one of the previous posters mentioned but realized that for the way my mind works it's easier for me to wait to see them hit the ground after the ice dagger hits. Then they bounce back up and get hit by the 2 that starts the 212 then slide.

I guess my big question now is... the 22, freeze, 214, slide does 29% as opposed to 31% with the slightly longer one that has the NJP into b12, 212 slide (31% and 35% respectively with enh. Slide.) But the first is much easier to do and has 3 fewer hits to have someone breaker you on so is the first one I listed not really used competetively or is it something people just switch up every so often when they feel like it?
Actually the first one is used more competitively, but with a JPS tacked on at the beginning. So 2,2,freeze,JPS,2,1,4,slide. Thats a basic BnB for Subby.