Who are the top tier characters? Podcast Discussion.

[M2Dave]

I have not linked to one of these podcasts on TYM in a long time. I believe that the current discussions merit the community's attention. I would specifically like to know what people on TYM think. Please share your opinions and participate in the poll.

Hosts: Crimson Shadow, m2dave, REO, Tom Brady, Zyphox

Guest: Burrito Voorhees (AKA King Jr.)

Topics (in chronological order): Pro Tour, Top Tier Characters, Most Improved Characters, Shao Kahn Buffs

Biggest Hot Take: King Jr. says Shao Kahn's f+3,4 should be safe on block and have no gap. Balanced or broken?

Hero of the Week: @Evil Canadian for providing informative content on YouTube.

Fool of the Week: None. Nominate the Fool of the Week in this thread for next week's podcast.

Link:

 

[Kiss the Missile]

I def disagreed with Reo's point about how its not a big deal characters don't play how they used to. Gameplay is a massive part of a character's identity. Considering NRS doesn't bring back staple characters every game, there's a chance that even if your favorite character makes it into the game, they could have a brand new playstyle that you have zero interest in. Thats just shitty design imo

 

[RoboCop]

I only play on PC so my matchup knowledge is a bit limited. Since I don't play a lot of Cetrions or other characters who are generally considered to be in the top 5, I only voted for Kabal, who somehow is still getting missed by all these patches.

 

[Infamous718]

I listened to it everyone made good picks Kabal is possibly the most underrated top tier in the game IMO. Character literally has everything

 

[M2Dave]

I only play on PC so my matchup knowledge is a bit limited. Since I don't play a lot of Cetrions or other characters who are generally considered to be in the top 5, I only voted for Kabal, who somehow is still getting missed by all these patches.

I have voted for Kabal too, but I guess Joker could also be top 5 with Kapow and Boing.

Does anyone know which custom moves Kabal players are equipping?

 

[RoboCop]

I have voted for Kabal too, but I guess Joker could also be top 5 with Kapow and Boing.

Does anyone know which custom moves Kabal players are equipping?

I've been playing against one using the gas jet and air downward saw but can't remember the 3rd move they were using. Seemed very solid. Able to just utterly fuck the neutral since you can't really react to his aerial shenanigans, depending on the MU, and he was still getting easy conversions into 30%+ anywhere on screen.

 

[M2Dave]

I've been playing against one using the gas jet and air downward saw but can't remember the 3rd move they were using. Seemed very solid. Able to just utterly fuck the neutral since you can't really react to his aerial shenanigans, depending on the MU, and he was still getting easy conversions into 30%+ anywhere on screen.

If I recall correctly, the aerial dash costs two slots so there is no third special move.

 

[RoboCop]

Ah, then there you have it lol.

 

[The chosen puddle]

I think the gap in shaos f3+4 should be removed but It should 100% stay unsafe.

 

[TwiztidOne]

Most kabals who run air dash run it with hook grab launcher to maximize combo potential. Downward saw is a base move so it doesn't cost a slot

I have been running air straight saw(replaces downward air saw),dash cancel and gas blast restand

I like the screen control that instant air straight saw gives. You can convert for meterless combos on jumping opponents or use the bar to convert on standing opponents. Back jump instant air straight saw, can also be used after db4 to blow up wake up u2, u3 and jumps for full combo. It can also catch wake up roll, but the timing is finicky.

Nomad dash cancel gives kabal the ability to confirm off single hitting normals. I like this because I never have to commit to b12 in neutral and it makes f4 a 9 frame hit confirmable mid that's plus 1 on block

Gas blast is great for the restand. it also has great utility in block strings due to the push back and the ex or non ex mix up. Ex gas blast can also be set on screen like an ice clone. When kabal stands in it he gets a damage buff and it heals him. When the opponent stands in there it does dot and disables jumping. I have not found a way to reliably set this up though.

I also run low hook in matches where air straight saw isn't as useful neutral. It's useful in the corner due to the unreactable 50/50 off b1.
B1~low hook for small damage
B12~buzzsaw for meter less damage
B12~ex buzz saw for more damage
Or b12~ex glast blast for safety on block and a restand on hit

 

[Infamous718]

Noob is a honorable mention customs make him crazy good as well. Takes 40% off a touch if he has the meter

 

[Pan1cMode]

I have voted for Kabal too, but I guess Joker could also be top 5 with Kapow and Boing.

Does anyone know which custom moves Kabal players are equipping?

Anti-air hook
Gas air dash

or

Anti-air hook
Nomad dash cancel
Rolling buzzsaw/low hook


In terms of top 5 there are several characters definitely in the discussion. Consensus seems that Jacqui, Cetrion, Liu and Joker take up 4 out of the 5 but finding the 5th character seems a challenge. There's also Cassie, Geras, Johnny, Kabal and Fujin to consider. These are all characters that were very strong before kustoms and have only been helped with their addition. Then we have Kotal, Sub Zero and Kano who now appear super strong given kustoms and hitboxes changes.

Characters like Jade, Frost, Sheeva, Erron, Nightwolf, Spawn, Shang, Sindel, Scorpion, Noob, Raiden, and Kung Lao all now feel complete; but I'm not sure if they're top 5. The gap between the top tiers and mid tiers has shrunk even further with this patch.

Certain characters are still solid, but feel like they didn't get much from kustoms. For example, Sonya, Kitana, D'Vorah, Terminator, Skarlet, and Kollector. These characters all still feel solid and Kustoms helped them somewhat, but it's not as big a boon as to the aforementioned characters.

The only characters I still feel are pretty awful are Robocop and Shao.

 

[Agilaz]

Kotal not having more votes is sus.

This character has literally everything.

• Great range
• Great damage w/ very low execution requirements
• Probably the best cmd grab in the game
• Decent projectile with an easy KB
• good Kb's in general, which are universal to boot
• highest health value
• best heal in the game..
• ...which is also the best round closer in the game, and doesnt go away on hit (???????)
• godlike wavedashes rivalled only by Rain
• good buttons
• unblockable that beats even rolls (when for instance Sheeva's db3 tends to not hit rolls)

This character is all sorts of stupid and people need to start acknowledging it, or else NRS will just keep buffing him until he just needs to press X to instantly win.

 

[REO]

I def disagreed with Reo's point about how its not a big deal characters don't play how they used to. Gameplay is a massive part of a character's identity. Considering NRS doesn't bring back staple characters every game, there's a chance that even if your favorite character makes it into the game, they could have a brand new playstyle that you have zero interest in. Thats just shitty design imo

I don't see how it's that big of a deal. Yeah, you may not like your favorite character's new play style now because they don't play like the last MK game they were in. But there's a ton of players like me who find a new character's play style very fun which garners new interest. Think of all the other players who wouldn't be interested in the character if their game plan and play style stayed the same.

Example is I didn't care or have any interest in characters like Baraka, Rain, D'Vorah, etc. in the last MK games they were in. In MK11 I find these characters very fun because they're so different and are now interesting to me because their play styles have changed.

Do we really expect Sub-Zero to play hide and seek behind clones every single time they announce him for an MK game? I think it's cool that a character like Nightwolf can become a command grab character all of a sudden or a character like Sheeva can become a power zoner all of a sudden

 

[Kiss the Missile]

I don't see how it's that big of a deal. Yeah, you may not like your favorite character's new play style now because they don't play like the last MK game they were in. But there's a ton of players like me who find a new character's play style very fun which garners new interest. Think of all the other players who wouldn't be interested in the character if their game plan and play style stayed the same.

Example is I didn't care or have any interest in characters like Baraka, Rain, D'Vorah, etc. in the last MK games they were in. In MK11 I find these characters very fun because they're so different and are now interesting to me because their play styles have changed.

Do we really expect Sub-Zero to play hide and seek behind clones every single time they announce him for an MK game? I think it's cool that a character like Nightwolf can become a command grab character all of a sudden or a character like Sheeva can become a power zoner all of a sudden

At the cost of potentially alienating fans of the character? I don't think its a fair trade off. This isn't on some bias shit either, my favorite characters aren't in this game. I just don't see the point of shuffling the characters like that. I'm all for expanding a character's moveset, absolutely. Removing part of their identity is just stupid anyway you look at it tho.

Honestly the more I think about it I just think its an issue with NRS' design philosophy. Them completely reinventing Mortal Kombat every new game is alienating in and of itself.

 

[REO]

Changing almost anything about the game will alienate some players. Some people don't like how Kabal's new design looks. Some people don't like how the new Sonya Blade sounds. Some people don't like how the new Sub-Zero plays. Etc. etc. MK was never about legacy and retaining the same vision. The games have been drastically changing from game to game for three decades.

Just because you fell in love with Ermac in one game doesn't mean you have to be in love with the character in every single game he's put moving forward. Don't know why anyone would ever expect this when it comes to Mortal Kombat as a franchise.

Anyway, maybe NRS will listen and MK12 will be our legacy game which will just be like MK11 with characters, design, and gameplay. So that way NRS takes the new legacy route and cements MK11 as the base for the MK series moving forward, kinda like they are doing with their Injustice series.

I just hope some of you are ready for that future. Be careful what you wish for, lol.

 

[Kiss the Missile]

Changing almost anything about the game will alienate some players. Some people don't like how Kabal's new design looks. Some people don't like how the new Sonya Blade sounds. Some people don't like how the new Sub-Zero plays. Etc. etc. MK was never about legacy and retaining the same vision. The games have been drastically changing from game to game for three decades.

Just because you fell in love with Ermac in one game doesn't mean you have to be in love with the character in every single game he's put moving forward. Don't know why anyone would ever expect this when it comes to Mortal Kombat as a franchise.

Anyway, maybe NRS will listen and MK12 will be our legacy game which will just be like MK11 with characters, design, and gameplay. So that way NRS takes the new legacy route and cements MK11 as the base for the MK series moving forward, kinda like they are doing with their Injustice series.

I just hope some of you are ready for that future. Be careful what you wish for, lol.

MK11 becoming the foundation of future Mortal Kombat would be a nightmare for me lol. I've been using King since Tekken 2 and have always loved the character. I just feel like if someone is a fan of a character, you should do what you can to appeal to them, not everyone else. Namco shouldn't look at King and think "Well non gappler players don't really like him, so lets give him a sword and make him a long range hit and run character"

The most egregious example of this was when they were showing off a new patch, and while showing that Kitana has combos from air fans again, 16bit says while mimicking Kitana players "Where are her combos? She's supposed to be the combo queen. That's something that we made up and declared"

Just because they've done this for a while doesn't mean they should keep doing it.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

Honestly the more I think about it I just think its an issue with NRS' design philosophy. Them completely reinventing Mortal Kombat every new game is alienating in and of itself.

Given that each one sells more than the last, though, it's kind of hard to make that argument.

Anyone who won't play the next game because it's different than the last is .0000002% of the playerbase.

 

[XxSYNDROISxX]

I don't see how it's that big of a deal. Yeah, you may not like your favorite character's new play style now because they don't play like the last MK game they were in. But there's a ton of players like me who find a new character's play style very fun which garners new interest. Think of all the other players who wouldn't be interested in the character if their game plan and play style stayed the same.

Example is I didn't care or have any interest in characters like Baraka, Rain, D'Vorah, etc. in the last MK games they were in. In MK11 I find these characters very fun because they're so different and are now interesting to me because their play styles have changed.

Do we really expect Sub-Zero to play hide and seek behind clones every single time they announce him for an MK game? I think it's cool that a character like Nightwolf can become a command grab character all of a sudden or a character like Sheeva can become a power zoner all of a sudden

Well said man

 

[M2Dave]

I just feel like if someone is a fan of a character, you should do what you can to appeal to them, not everyone else. Namco shouldn't look at King and think "Well non gappler players don't really like him, so lets give him a sword and make him a long range hit and run character."

Well-said. When you choose King in Tekken, you already know to expect a wrestler who relies on throws. When you choose Sub Zero in Mortal Kombat, you have no idea what to expect. You may be playing a defensive character or a 50/50 mix up character. Obviously, the manner in which a character plays is unlikely to affect sales because casual gamers could not care less about gameplay subtleties. Nonetheless, sales, or the lack thereof, do not validate or invalidate criticism. My main point is that traditional character archetypes no longer exist in Mortal Kombat 11 because of custom moves. Liu Kang, for example, has become as much of a footsies character as he has become a command grab and zoning character, which makes no sense gameplay wise as well as balance wise.

 

[Juxtapose]

I personally greatly respect NetherRealm Studios for not cut and pasting their games from game to game. They always change things, trying for improvements, or simply trying for something new, with each title. The appeal to this is you're not going to get burnout where you're simply playing a prettier version of the same game for years and years on end. The downside is that the changes in each game some players will really like, which others will not. It's a double edged sword in that regard.

Having said that, and I've said this before: I do not like the Variation system in this game and how it was implimented. I had no issue with it in Mortal Kombat XL, however.

 

[MadPropz101]

I def disagreed with Reo's point about how its not a big deal characters don't play how they used to. Gameplay is a massive part of a character's identity. Considering NRS doesn't bring back staple characters every game, there's a chance that even if your favorite character makes it into the game, they could have a brand new playstyle that you have zero interest in. Thats just shitty design imo

I'd rather it be like this than the same game rehashed over and over, which is what a legacy system boils down to (like inj)

 

[CrimsonShadow]

I personally greatly respect NetherRealm Studios for not cut and pasting their games from game to game. They always change things, trying for improvements, or simply trying for something new, with each title. The appeal to this is you're not going to get burnout where you're simply playing a prettier version of the same game for years and years on end. The downside is that the changes in each game some players will really like, which others will not. It's a double edged sword in that regard.

Having said that, and I've said this before: I do not like the Variation system in this game and how it was implimented. I had no issue with it in Mortal Kombat XL, however.

Yeah, I feel like people missed that spark of discovering everything anew in Injustice 2.

It was still a great game because of polish; but there’s also something fun about that Christmas-like feeling of getting a brand-new title and figuring out how it’s put together.

 

[Juxtapose]

Yeah, I feel like people missed that spark of discovering everything anew in Injustice 2.

It was still a great game because of polish; but there’s also something fun about that Christmas-like feeling of getting a brand-new title and figuring out how it’s put together.

Ah. I actually never got into the Injustice series. A DC fighter doesn't appeal to me personally. I do like some of the mechanics from that series that have made their way into Mortal Kombat though.

 

[MadPropz101]

I feel like Jax should be here, he is godlike after the kustom patch