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General/Other Re designing sub zero

Enenra

Go to hell.
NRS should send their top dog SZ player to a tournament and watch him get blown up.
iknorite?
They make it sound like it would do 40 percen
I still want to know who deemed sliding under duck able projectiles was too good. I can think of only one matchup that would be greatly effected.
It would affect so much. Honestly though, how do we deal with KL? I can't think of any buff that would better that ass of a match up.
 

GGA soonk

ĜĞÅ §ººñ|<®©™
iknorite?
They make it sound like it would do 40 percen
It would affect so much. Honestly though, how do we deal with KL? I can't think of any buff that would better that ass of a match up.
Remove proximity on clone?
 

Bidu

the CHILL of DESPAIR
I think its inappropriate to change Sub, he's perfectly fine as he is.
For some reason every time I read this I fell like punching the person in the nuts... Nothing personal. :)


NRS should send their top dog SZ player to a tournament and watch him get blown up.

Tom Brady? :)

Honestly though, how do we deal with KL? I can't think of any buff that would better that ass of a match up.
What SZ needs against KL is his standing hit box to be corrected, that's about it. I'd take that "buff" above anything else.
 

Panque

Random foreign guy
No damage scaling
Normal freeze time on opponents that get frozen in the air (I think this is the dumbest thing in the whole fucking game. Why the hell should my opponent be safer on the air?)
Slide going under all projectiles and no armor on en slide, just more damage
Armor on En Freeze. TAKE THAT Sindel!
 

salvificblood

Worst Sub-Zero Ever
First of all, the armour on the first 20 frames of the ex slide was a garbage buff and ended up doing practically nothing for this character. I honestly wouldn't mind if they removed it, although those I play casuals with will probably want it to stay so they can see ex slide into the clone once every blue moon, but whatever. I don't mind if it stays, but please, for the sake of my sanity, get rid of the freeze scaling. Give me my damage, lol. If I have to truck all the way across the screen and back, come hell or high water, I want my damage at the end of it... or I won't play anymore! Lol.

Another must: fix the freeze duration on the ex ice blast. I cannot tell you how utterly ridiculous it is that airborne opponents unthaw faster after an ex ice blast than a regular ice blast. Errr, hello... Let me just waste one bar of meter for you and you can just go back to iaf'ing (lol) me afterwards.

Slide going under duckable projectiles is probably what his slide should do, but I am not holding out any hope on this one. NRS will probably increase the size of Sub-Zero's hitbox so his slide can't go under any projectiles if we ask for this buff!
 

NRF CharlieMurphy

Kindergarten Meta
lol... again... if he could slide duck able stuff... how would that make him over powered? He can't combo off of it. Fuck mileena rolls EVERYTHING and gets a combo. How is that not "too powerful". The hypocrisy is just silly.

I think the Sektor Matchup would slightly skew into Subs favor... but really that is the only one I can think of that would change in his favor. Mileena and Kitana and Kabal and Freddy would probably go even. That still leave Kenshi and Kung Lao as fairly bad match ups. and Sonya and Ermac as slightly bad ones.
 

salvificblood

Worst Sub-Zero Ever
lol... again... if he could slide duck able stuff... how would that make him over powered? He can't combo off of it. Fuck mileena rolls EVERYTHING and gets a combo. How is that not "too powerful". The hypocrisy is just silly.

I think the Sektor Matchup would slightly skew into Subs favor... but really that is the only one I can think of that would change in his favor. Mileena and Kitana and Kabal and Freddy would probably go even. That still leave Kenshi and Kung Lao as fairly bad match ups. and Sonya and Ermac as slightly bad ones.
It wouldn't make him anything like OP but I just don't think NRS would go for it. I actually don't think they'll do anything to him but slide going under all duckable projectiles is probably the thing least likely to happen. The character is OK as he is. Let's face it, if he really is low tier, there are other low tier characters, too. At some point, you just have to accept the fact your character, while being fun to play, is not the best.

The thing I object to is them giving everybody armour and nerfing Sub's damage off a freeze so that all the characters without a teleport or fast-recovering projectile have an easier time against him, but leave Sub's more difficult matchups exactly the way they've always been. That's some bs, lol. But it's all in the past now. Time to move on.
 

NRF CharlieMurphy

Kindergarten Meta
I'm not asking for a buff.... simply asking why my suggestion would be considered by the developers as "too much"

Seriously... the character gets blown up by the top characters. Sal I think you've spoiled yourself with Kitana, Mileena and Kenshi. At the highest level... he has ZERO chance to win ft2 or a ft3.
 

charlieonline

Search "CaseyJones" for active profile.
Dude Sub is a chore to play these days... take any other character and the difference is like night and day.
 

salvificblood

Worst Sub-Zero Ever
Dude Sub is a chore to play these days... take any other character and the difference is like night and day.

I don't know how Sub-Zero players can say this. I've tried loads of other characters and the ones I have limited success with against good players are and will always be secondaries to my Sub-Zero. Maybe I am just not trying the right ones? I've tried Liu Kang, Raiden, Johnny Cage, Sektor all of which I hated playing. I've played a good amount of Cyber Sub, Noob and now Smoke (my Smoke has improved loads in a very short period of time), but none of them are as easy to win with as Sub-Zero. The last decent Cyrax I played, I was destroying with Sub-Zero and losing to with Smoke for the most part. I mean, some of the rounds lasted all of 20 seconds with Sub. Maybe this wouldn't be the case if I had played Smoke since day one through to now but even still, even in matchups that are supposed to be really hard for me to win, I find it easiest of all to adapt with Sub-Zero. Every other character I play I simply can't adjust with as well as I adjust to new problems with Sub. Surely, if you're a dedicated Sub-Zero player, the same is true for you?

I've decided I am not going to listen to anybody else about this character anymore since I think, while there's a lot of bs in the game and NRS hasn't handled Sub perhaps in the way they should have, in my opinion, he's still by far the best character for me and certainly good enough to compete. I simply don't believe the character's that bad.

The character isn't always the reason you lose. Unless you're playing the very best players week in week out and getting destroyed consistently by their mains when you play Sub but not when you play someone else, you can't really say it's all the character and not you.
 

GGA soonk

ĜĞÅ §ººñ|<®©™
in my opinion, he's still by far the best character for me
Isn't that what it really comes down to? But I do agree that some matchups really are a chore to play *cough* Kitana *cough*
 

salvificblood

Worst Sub-Zero Ever
Isn't that what it really comes down to? But I do agree that some matchups really are a chore to play *cough* Kitana *cough*
I don't think Kitana is that bad anymore. I've learned that in matchups like that, (Cage vs Sub/Kitana and Sub vs Kitana, etc), you just have to be really patient and make the other come to you. Kitana can't throw fans across the screen all day, and Sub can punish her with a reverse input slide for any fan wave she does. Once you get a knockdown, you can abuse the fact she has garbage wakeup. The natural instinct is to chase her all over the screen, but the opposite works much better, just have to have really good patience and the ability to punish when you get the opportunity.

If any Kitana player thinks they''re going to win with d1, give me a break, Sub's d4 is more than good enough to stop you abusing d1.
 

Seapeople

This one's for you
I don't think Kitana is that bad anymore. I've learned that in matchups like that, (Cage vs Sub/Kitana and Sub vs Kitana, etc), you just have to be really patient and make the other come to you. Kitana can't throw fans across the screen all day, and Sub can punish her with a reverse input slide for any fan wave she does. Once you get a knockdown, you can abuse the fact she has garbage wakeup. The natural instinct is to chase her all over the screen, but the opposite works much better, just have to have really good patience and the ability to punish when you get the opportunity.

If any Kitana player thinks they''re going to win with d1, give me a break, Sub's d4 is more than good enough to stop you abusing d1.
If you're playing a life lead battle against Kitana and she's winning, it's nearly impossible to get back in if the opponent can iaf really well. I agree that's the best way to play this matchup, but that is why it's so difficult.

Kitana has a better keep away game than Sub, and a little better comeback factor.
 

salvificblood

Worst Sub-Zero Ever
If you're playing a life lead battle against Kitana and she's winning, it's nearly impossible to get back in if the opponent can iaf really well. I agree that's the best way to play this matchup, but that is why it's so difficult.

Kitana has a better keep away game than Sub, and a little better comeback factor.
Sub has better corner pressure, though. She can't square wave out for free, either, she will eat the slide and then pressure on wakeup if she does that. Square waving out of the corner is not the way to play it. Sub-Zero players need to learn how to start consistently punishing her with the reverse input slide for doing that to escape the corner (ex slide is quite amusing, too...)... It's really important in the matchup because you have to play the game all around knockdowns and lifelead against Kitana.
 

NRF CharlieMurphy

Kindergarten Meta
Sub has better corner pressure, though. She can't square wave out for free, either, she will eat the slide and then pressure on wakeup if she does that. Square waving out of the corner is not the way to play it. Sub-Zero players need to learn how to start consistently punishing her with the reverse input slide for doing that to escape the corner (ex slide is quite amusing, too...)... It's really important in the matchup because you have to play the game all around knockdowns and lifelead against Kitana.
It isn't instant air fan that kills him... its d1. She can dash in and d1 him whenever she wants. Clone has proximity to this move, so she can dash in a bust it and hit you with d1. In my opinion she controls that space, which makes it hard to mount any type of offense. She really doesn't push herself into the corner as easily as you might think.
You add that with her IAF and then you have a problem getting close to her constantly. That is how I feel. I don't like how I have to play her with Sub, so I am learning Smoke. I hate how smoke plays against other characters, but he forces Kitana to get close enough to fight her.
 

Seapeople

This one's for you
If you get her in the corner then the match gets easier, but Kitana won't just put herself in the corner with iaf. Most of the ones I've played will start walking in with the threat of d1/f21, forcing you to back up or clone, and getting further away from the corner.

From my experience, the match is far from impossible because of Sub's tools that you mentioned. But it's definitely in Kitana's favor.
 

salvificblood

Worst Sub-Zero Ever
It isn't instant air fan that kills him... its d1. She can dash in and d1 him whenever she wants. Clone has proximity to this move, so she can dash in a bust it and hit you with d1. In my opinion she controls that space, which makes it hard to mount any type of offense. She really doesn't push herself into the corner as easily as you might think.
You add that with her IAF and then you have a problem getting close to her constantly. That is how I feel. I don't like how I have to play her with Sub, so I am learning Smoke. I hate how smoke plays against other characters, but he forces Kitana to get close enough to fight her.
d4, d4, d4, d4, d4, d4....

She pushes herself into the corner if you have solid footsies and a well-thought out poking and counter poking game. You should never get bogged down in Kitana rushdown.

You guys do realise she's at really big disadvantage if you block the d1, right? And if she whiffs it because she's trying to poke you through the clone, you can walk right up to her and start pressure for free.
 

NRF CharlieMurphy

Kindergarten Meta
I'm not talking about her rush down. I'm talking about her simply IAF IAF IAF, dash in d1.
Yeah I agree that she does push herself into the corner... but why would she get all the way there. She can mixup what she does off of her jumps... and Sub has to do all the guess work. You can't catch EVERY square wave if she stays unpredictable. That is my point. A good Kitana isn't going to simply IAF herself into the corner.

Don't get me wrong, once you get Kitana in the corner... the match changes ten fold. It is getting there with more than a quarter of your life.

BTW, I also agree with Sub playing the way I want to play. I use him in almost every other matchup, because I feel he does outplay most characters. I just feel he is basically free to Mileena, Kitana and Kung Lao.
 

salvificblood

Worst Sub-Zero Ever
I'm not talking about her rush down. I'm talking about her simply IAF IAF IAF, dash in d1.
Yeah I agree that she does push herself into the corner... but why would she get all the way there. She can mixup what she does off of her jumps... and Sub has to do all the guess work. You can't catch EVERY square wave if she stays unpredictable. That is my point. A good Kitana isn't going to simply IAF herself into the corner.

Don't get me wrong, once you get Kitana in the corner... the match changes ten fold. It is getting there with more than a quarter of your life.

BTW, I also agree with Sub playing the way I want to play. I use him in almost every other matchup, because I feel he does outplay most characters. I just feel he is basically free to Mileena, Kitana and Kung Lao.
You can actually watch her go into the air and fan wave and then punish with the slide. It's not a terribly difficult thing to do. She can jump around all she likes but if she does a fan wave, she will eat the slide. If she starts jumping at you, she's taking a massive risk so she can't really mixup off her jumps that much. What can she really do? IAF or fan wave? Just watch what she does. Stay neutral crouching if she fans, reverse input the slide if she waves.

If she dashes in to d1, block it and then reply with a d4.
 

charlieonline

Search "CaseyJones" for active profile.
I don't think Kitana is that bad anymore. I've learned that in matchups like that, (Cage vs Sub/Kitana and Sub vs Kitana, etc), you just have to be really patient and make the other come to you. Kitana can't throw fans across the screen all day, and Sub can punish her with a reverse input slide for any fan wave she does. Once you get a knockdown, you can abuse the fact she has garbage wakeup. The natural instinct is to chase her all over the screen, but the opposite works much better, just have to have really good patience and the ability to punish when you get the opportunity.

If any Kitana player thinks they''re going to win with d1, give me a break, Sub's d4 is more than good enough to stop you abusing d1.
So what do you do when she fans until she has breaker?

When you avoid her stuff and your back is coming to the corner, her next jump in air fan could be a jip, how do you deal with that? Kits not afraid to jip rather than fan at the last minute are a pain too, the whole match up is.

How do you get past Kenshi's zoning? It was designed to keep Sub out. Don't gimme that "make the right reads", that only works on bad Kenshis like those Noob Spammers. Reading a good Kenshi is not easy and he usually is smart enough to armor your jip and has meter by the time you are back again to eat another sword push away.

Mileena is a very popular noob online character too and how do you get past her footsies vs the GOOD ones. The ones who know how to use d4 iasai. That shit locks Sub down so bad.