Johnny Cage must not be normalized.

[mrapchem]

In your opinion, do the nerfs to Geras, Liu Kang, Cassie, Jacqui, Sonya etc. indicate that NRS is "catering to the masses"? Or hitting the top characters with the "nerf hammer"? Almost every legitimately top character that's been nerfed is still tournament-viable.

I'd say it's characters who aren't as good that have more to fear, because a small adjustment might have a larger impact overall (Scorpion). But among characters who are actually being used frequently in tournament Top 8s, their track record of balance adjustments has been pretty conservative and well-reasoned so far.

In this game, NRS has tried not to cater to the masses as much, so most of the nerfs - specifically to Geras, Liu, Jacqui and Cassie - were fine. However, other nerfs, like Sonya's, Scorpion's and Kitana/D'Vorah's post-launch nerfs were knee-jerky.

I would say that Sonya just needed her zoning toned down slightly and not to get so much damage off the cancel. Instead, they kept her zoning and gave her even less combo-versatility than she already had by changing the properties of her EX anti-air move.

Scorpion really just needed his the launcher part of his EX-Tele to not come out on block - Scorpion players tried to warn people that he'd drop like a hot rock if his teleport was made a high. Ever since it was made high, Scorpion - who was already not a consistent Top 16/Top 8 character - is rarer in tournament than ever.

When I refer to the nerf hammer, I think of INJ 2 Aquaman and Deadshot, MKX Cyrax, Cyber-Sub, Erron, Jax and Kotal. To be clear, these characters definitely had some OD shit that needed to be toned down. Yet NRS nerf-batted these characters to the point of barely having any strengths when they only needed some tweaks.

I don't want Johnny Cage - or any character, even the ones I dislike - joining their ranks, you know?

 

[CrimsonShadow]

In this game, NRS has tried not to cater to the masses as much, so most of the nerfs - specifically to Geras, Liu, Jacqui and Cassie - were fine. However, other nerfs, like Sonya's, Scorpion's and Kitana/D'Vorah's post-launch nerfs were knee-jerky.

I would say that Sonya just needed her zoning toned down slightly and not to get so much damage off the cancel. Instead, they kept her zoning and gave her even less combo-versatility than she already had by changing the properties of her EX anti-air move.

Scorpion really just needed his the launcher part of his EX-Tele to not come out on block - Scorpion players tried to warn people that he'd drop like a hot rock if his teleport was made a high. Ever since it was made high, Scorpion - who was already not a consistent Top 16/Top 8 character - is rarer in tournament than ever.

When I refer to the nerf hammer, I think of INJ 2 Aquaman and Deadshot, MKX Cyrax, Cyber-Sub, Erron, Jax and Kotal. To be clear, these characters definitely had some OD shit that needed to be toned down. Yet NRS nerf-batted these characters to the point of barely having any strengths when they only needed some tweaks.

I don't want Johnny Cage - or any character, even the ones I dislike - joining their ranks, you know?

Well you’re pretty much confirming my point — which is that almost all the characters which were commonly used at a Top 8 level, and were nerfed, didn’t get hit with the “nerf hammer” and are still viable at a minimum (and in reality, most of them are still top picks).

So I’m not really sure where this irrational fear of mega-nerfs is coming from.

 

[M.D.]

It seems most people here don't get one thing.

Cage will NEVER get nerfed. You better start to l2p if you actually want to keep playing mk11, so eat it.

The only problem remaining is that his hitboxes need to be repaired.

 

[Rodney Quillz]

It seems most people here don't get one thing.

Cage will NEVER get nerfed. You better start to l2p if you actually want to keep playing mk11, so eat it.

The only problem remaining is that his hitboxes need to be repaired.

Lmao my man decided to give into the darkness lol

The oppressed has become the oppressor.

 

[Eldriken]

Fix his hitboxes, adjust his crouch block animation, and slightly adjust his projectiles in Outtake.

Let him keep his plus frames, his autoshimmy and all that other shit so we can lay this all to rest, stfu and move on with our lives.

It's like this character alone is going to divide an effin' community. Good grief.

 

[Bruno-NeoSpace]

"No one is saying Cage is mid tier" posts the character has like 6 bad MUs lmao

 

[M.D.]

Cage is mid tier.

 

[SHAOLIN]

This is doing wonders for my Psychology studies.

Don't stop guys!

 

[NaCl man]

Nerf those force balls by a few frames and he is all good.

 

[Bruno-NeoSpace]

Cage is mid tier.

Lmao. Since mkx. Incredible

 

[Rodney Quillz]

Lmao. Since mkx. Incredible

He needs buffs man.

Nerf Liu Kang man.

 

[M.D.]

Cage bottom 5

 

[LMNYHappyDaze]

This character is really divisive. Probably because he went so long flying under the radar, being the definition of mid tier and then after one patch he’s suddenly the most broken shit ever according to some ppl on the Internet. Imo just nerf Outtake. Hitting his base tool kit wouldn’t be fair because he received no buffs to his kit when he needed them the most before outtake imo.
And just out of curiosity, Has anyone other than Ninja and Sonic had tournament success with Johnny?

 

[M.D.]

In majors no, Kombat tried but switched to Geras to win.

#fixhitboxesnow

 

[Zviko]

Pretty sure Kombat won a tournament very early on with Shock Jock, beating Sonic in Grand finals. Not sure which tournament though.

 

[LMNYHappyDaze]

I only ask because Sonic and Ninja are and have been dominating NA tournaments for the most part. Those two being the best and second best players in the world respectively. I feel Johnny is more of an accessory to Ninja and Sonic more than the character being so strong that the character is almost necessary to have success. I mean we saw Sonic take Kollector and Dvorah to grand finals so it’s safe to say he could do well with anyone and Ninja also has that same level of talent. The character is OD asf yes we know. Strong asf tier list destroyer. But despite Johnny being so strong we don’t see much representation with him besides the highest level with players who were going to do well and win regardless. I feel as if a nerf to the character itself would do more harm than good to those who aren’t at the highest level. I mean, we look at the best players in the world use this character and go “that’s dumb, look how good he is” when it’s more the players being amazing and less on the character itself. When honestly, there’s way more offending characters in this game with way worse shit

 

[Zviko]

I only ask because Sonic and Ninja are and have been dominating NA tournaments for the most part. Those two being the best and second best players in the world respectively. I feel Johnny is more of an accessory to Ninja and Sonic more than the character being so strong that the character is almost necessary to have success. I mean we saw Sonic take Kollector and Dvorah to grand finals so it’s safe to say he could do well with anyone and Ninja also has that same level of talent. The character is OD asf yes we know. Strong asf tier list destroyer. But despite Johnny being so strong we don’t see much representation with him besides the highest level with players who were going to do well and win regardless. I feel as if a nerf to the character itself would do more harm than good to those who aren’t at the highest level. I mean, we look at the best players in the world use this character and go “that’s dumb, look how good he is” when it’s more the players being amazing and less on the character itself. When honestly, there’s way more offending characters in this game with way worse shit

But this works both ways. You say Johnny does well in tournaments only when 2 best players in the world pick him so maybe he is not realy about Johnny. What about Kabal then? He isn't picked at all at tournaments, does that mean he is bottom tier? What about Cetrion? What if Sindel was in the game since the start and Dragon never picked up Cetrion. Literally everyone would think she's bottom tier because no one would play her.

This is exactly why people need to stop looking at tournament results and make tier lists based on those. A character just needs good tools. A player is what matters at the end especially at that level where it can go either way, like we've seen at NEC.

 

[M.D.]

People above use logic.

It's not very effective.

OMGGG 9 FRAMEE FIREBALL OMG SAFE D1 SPECIAL NERFFF BROKEGAMEEE cant braindead play my cetrion kang geras boohooo neeerfff

 

[CrimsonShadow]

In majors no, Kombat tried but switched to Geras to win.

#fixhitboxesnow

Kombat used Cage with success at NEC whether or not he won. There were three people in Top 8 using 2 different variations of Cage to beat people.

Saying “WeLL tHeY DiDnT aLL WiN tHe WhOLe ThInG” is like the highest form of downplay.

You know that if there were 3 Liu Kangs beating people in Top 8 a couple months ago, people would have been ready to burn the devs at stake.

 

[M.D.]

Cage bottom 3.

Fix hitboxes now plz.

 

[LMNYHappyDaze]

Kombat used Cage with success at NEC whether or not he won. There were three people in Top 8 using 2 different variations of Cage to beat people.

Saying “WeLL tHeY DiDnT aLL WiN tHe WhOLe ThInG” is like the highest form of downplay.

You know that if there were 3 Liu Kangs beating people in Top 8 a couple months ago, people would have been ready to burn the devs at stake.

I remember when he played Ninja he went Geras, Johnny, and then back to Geras. Which looks like Johnny has probably been demoted to his pocket character. There was a 3rd Johnny player in top 8 still yeah, but in the elimination situation Kombat was in he went back to his comfort pick and what he probably thought was the stronger character or which character was gonna give him the best chance of winning, which was Geras to Kombat. Do with that info what u will

 

[CrimsonShadow]

I remember when he played Ninja he went Geras, Johnny, and then back to Geras. Which looks like Johnny has probably been demoted to his pocket character. There was a 3rd Johnny player in top 8 still yeah, but in the elimination situation Kombat was in he went back to his comfort pick and what he probably thought was the stronger character or which character was gonna give him the best chance of winning, which was Geras to Kombat. Do with that info what u will

I think that's a highly reductive way to analyze character picks. Maybe he didn't feel as comfortable in the mirror (lots of people don't like playing their mirror), etc.. Sonic does the same, and it doesn't mean he thinks a character is more or less strong, it just means he thinks it'll work best in that particular situation against that specific person.

 

[Temptress]

The mental gymnastics I’m witnessing from these Johnny mains is too much LOL. Denial and delusion.

 

[LMNYHappyDaze]

The mental gymnastics I’m witnessing from these Johnny mains is too much LOL. Denial and delusion.

Do u think Johnny should be nerfed? If so, why and how? I enjoy constructive conversations and exchanging ideas, but calling ppl delusional adds nothing.

 

[LMNYHappyDaze]

I think that's a highly reductive way to analyze character picks. Maybe he didn't feel as comfortable in the mirror (lots of people don't like playing their mirror), etc.. Sonic does the same, and it doesn't mean he thinks a character is more or less strong, it just means he thinks it'll work best in that particular situation against that specific person.

I feel what you’re saying. I just felt like that was worth noting. The general consensus was that Johnny beats Geras yet he went back to Geras rather than just facing the music in a mirror. Geras could’ve just been a comfort pick though, but I believe my point still stands in saying that the majority of success that we see with Johnny comes from the two best in the world, so the character may not be as powerful as many believe. Just moderate nerfs to Outtake would be fine imo