Kotal right now

[Moms4lif3]

@CorneliusBrutus again it is not about me telling you how you are doing it wrong because.

A. I have no measure of what your skill is or how you approach a match since you refuse to display or discuss either in detail

B. I have literally said twice in a row that I am asking what people are doing to see what's effective not preaching what I think is the best way to play kotal

C. At this point even if I could tell you, you would steer the conversation to talking about how bad kotal is instead of talking about the points I make.

A few points. For positives.

Kotal excels in mid range we all agree on that. So when you knock down or back you maintain this range. This deters wake ups because you will blow it up by taking no action.

B4 frames are not great, but the move itself is a wall that kills forward advancing moves and is good for footsies with throws.

He has two, yes two throw kb options. This is ridiculously overlooked. Most characters would kill for just one direction. Does massive damage for a 50 50 or stored as a 10 f punish.

He also has a counter hit 11f kb which is very accessible.

Ascension has some of the best damage in the game from an 8f punch. He also has quite high meterless damage for what it's worth. Close to Sonya but from multiple strings to confirm from.

His strings are obviously designed to whiff punish or take advantage of walking. His only unsafe string that you would use often is f34 in instances that you are going to be blocked.

His command grab is a mid, this is extremely potent considering the damage buff he can get and positioning.

He has one of the best wave dash in game if not the best because his buttons force respect at awkward ranges.

He is one of the few characters that can actually punish delay wake ups with his meaty unblockable.

The bars

Lack of mids that can combo. I agree but imagine if Sonya had sick mids too, it's the trade off for the damage potential. At least we can whiff punish and f2 to combo hard. F1 being mid would bless us but I wouldn't hold my breath.

Bad buttons. Most characters have em, take you pick. Our worst is probably d3. B4 is definitely not one.

Hitboxes you already understand most characters have this. For now think of it as a feature not a mistake. Many games have character specific combos and punishes. Gotta play the game as it is.

Positioning, many characters have to give up damage for this. We have to give up an exceptional amount in comparison.

Base kit and variations which moves should be added to base kit that wouldn't break either variation. I'd love his grab or combo cut for totemic.

For Ascension I don't know what move you would add to it.

Again if any of you are on PSN get at me and let's play. This is the original message, to ask for games and test match ups. And again avoiding trying to network and learn.

In the current state of the Game there really is no point in going wayyy into detail about Kotal’s matchups. He has very few good ones and loses most of them because of his basic problems, that have been mentioned LOTS of times here.

His footsies do rarely help him, since he cannot keep up pressure at all. Yes, u can use his strings at a good range, but if your opponent waits for it he simply blocks and it’s his turn again. Most characters can keep up pressure better than Kotal, so by going in he will be at a disadvantage. If he doesn’t go in, the only thing he can do is wait for whiffed buttons and try to punish, a good opponent will not give you the opportunity.

His throw game is pretty lackluster, because mid screen u cannot really enforce it, that goes for his command and regular throws. You can enforce it in the corner the same way other characters can, but getting the opponent to the corner means giving up a lot of damage and potential damage buff from his grab. Once you go for it in the corner the opponent is out of it and you need to start all over again.

Basically all the pros you listed also have a con and there is very few instances where kotal really has an advantage in any matchup. That is the reason why going very much into detail about matchup specific things is not really worth the effort at the moment.

I love kotal and his basic design, he just is not in a great spot at the moment and in most matchups he has no real benefits or even matchup specific strategies. You go for f34, you go for f24, you d4, you f4. That’s his main gameplan in most matchups, his tools do not really allow him to be more varied than that imo.

 

[Hellbringer]

I love kotal and his basic design, he just is not in a great spot at the moment and in most matchups he has no real benefits or even matchup specific strategies. You go for f34, you go for f24, you d4, you f4. That’s his main gameplan in most matchups, his tools do not really allow him to be more varied than that imo.

You don't need to use 15 different strings or buttons to make a character work, and his gameplan like u descirbes, what about his command grab, his unblockable?
Go watch quarks videos, he has already plenty off footage here, watch how he makes kotal work.
There is a really good kotal on pc ranked 1 who seems to make him work too. Ive played both of them, kotal is no joke like ppl think he is.

 

[Immortal]

Lets be clear coz i feel like there is a missconception here. You can win with Kotal, you can win with any character.

If you outplay your oponent you will win with any character, simple as that. Problems start when you're more or less evenly matched then character tools do a big difference. Kotal tools when compared to other characters in the game are pretty weak and thats about it. Nothing more, nothing less.

Coz of that you can achieve way better result without making hard reads all the time using better characters (almost anybody in the game). Has nothing to do with like or don't like Kotal. I didn't see variation called "Masochism" which would mean "yeah you like him, then suffer".

He needs some adjustments and all of those were already posted dozen or so of times, so we will see what he gets, when the patch drops. Till then im gonna play him, coz i like him but don't tell me there is no struggle, coz i get Erron or Sonya quite often and then it really sucks to be a Kotal player.

 

[Moms4lif3]

You don't need to use 15 different strings or buttons to make a character work, and his gameplan like u descirbes, what about his command grab, his unblockable?
Go watch quarks videos, he has already plenty off footage here, watch how he makes kotal work.
There is a really good kotal on pc ranked 1 who seems to make him work too. Ive played both of them, kotal is no joke like ppl think he is.

I actually explained about his command grab.

His unblockable is a gimmick for the most part that works in practice but shouldn’t work in theory. It is good against opponents who do not know how to counter it, but it is easily reactable and the anti air hitbox is kinda bad, so even on amplify you cannot catch an opponent that jumps out of it for the most part.

Just because there is one good kotal on pc ranked it does not mean the character is good. You can make him kind of work, yes, but most of the stuff works only because no one even bothers to lab the matchup.

I never said he is atrocious, I never said he is unusable, I said he is not good. Even “good” kotal players will not say that because it is simply not true. Please consider all of the things listed in this thread and then tell me differently. Lots of other characters do not have these problems.

I am not crying for buffs, I am not saying kotal is ass. I am saying he is limited, I am saying he could be way better with very slight adjustments. Just read and try to understand what I actually said instead of putting words in my mouth.

 

[Moms4lif3]

Lets be clear coz i feel like there is a missconception here. You can win with Kotal, you can win with any character.

Thank you. People who don’t play him do not seem to grasp this concept.

 

[Hellbringer]

His unblockable is a gimmick for the most part that works in practice but shouldn’t work in theory.

Yeah but like others say here we need to stop THEORY fighting.
Let me be clear, im not saying hes the best character, he might be the worst i this roster who knows, but thats not the point im trying to make, i just want all these so called kotal players on tym stop acting like this character is absolute trash. Post videos of games u have trouble with if hes really that bad and we can discuss if its accurate the problems u talked about, or u can give examples why hes so bad and we can discuss and talk how u could mayhe used other options. But not lets turn kotal forums in a salty bunch of whiners.

 

[Moms4lif3]

Yeah but like others say here we need to stop THEORY fighting.
Let me be clear, im not saying hes the best character, he might be the worst i this roster who knows, but thats not the point im trying to make, i just want all these so called kotal players on tym stop acting like this character is absolute trash. Post videos of games u have trouble with if hes really that bad and we can discuss if its accurate the problems u talked about, or u can give examples why hes so bad and we can discuss and talk how u could mayhe used other options. But not lets turn kotal forums in a salty bunch of whiners.

I agree, but you know what I mean I guess. Against skilled players gimmicks rarely work.

The downplaying and complaining about stuff is serious on this site.

I try to have an objective perspective, but I have my oppinion about kotal, based on experience and knowledge. I know some stuff works even though it shouldn’t but buffs or nerfs should be based on the best possible level of play I feel (I am not on that level for sure) and not on what works on casual players.

I have a good example for something like this: I play thin ice sub on the side and against inexperienced players I sometimes go for b143 slide on block, because it works and they do not block low. They are not expecting it. Against good players I maybe try it once in a win or lose situation, if it doesn’t work I eat shit. The same goes for kotals ground shake if you cancel a string into it, it’s easily interrupted.

 

[AK Harold]

Thanks @Immortal people are overstating how bad he is.

@Moms4lif3 the unblockable is very good on set ups. You can make it unavoidable unless they use meter etc. Also can punish delay wake up. I hit a lot of people in tournament that are aware of this move. They know Im going to do it sometime in a set but don't know when. Once they are aware of the set ups it actually is better. You then get to oki pretty hard at that point.

 

[DoctorSexual]

He does have problems vs zoning chars, totemic does just fine vs those, except probably sonya. You're not supposed to counterzone with his projectile, you didn't either in MKX. Very few chars jump projectiles. No advancing safety? F24 is -7.

Unfinished? Nah. He lacks a mid but that's it. That's literally his main problem, along with hitboxes.

You guys are welcome not to play him but it's clear you haven't put in any time actually trying to make him work without hating him at the same time.

You can spin shit based on whatever pro Kotal biases you have however you want, but the entire "You haven't put time into him" is an ignorant argument to make. Yes its clear a large portion of your life is dedicated to playing Kotal but no matter how much you play your individual time doesn't outweigh the collective community time played with the character.

Furthermore I never said you were SUPPOSED to counterzone with his projectile. Just that you cant. Simple statement.

Also cat is not a viable counterzoning tool in its current state. Its just not. For you to claim it is shows your lack of knowledge honestly. There are characters who literally can recover from their projectile fast enough to block and punish the enhanced cat after they throw it.

In fact most characters have such a short startup on their projectile that Cat isn't an option on reaction. You have to anticipate in advance. Jumping cat is decent at mid range against some zoning but then again as in almost any fighting game its suicidal to use a divekick as your main anti zoning tool long term.

F24 is fine but you leave out the fact that the F2 has insane startup and is only active for literally 1 frame......

See. You can spin anything anyway you want but when the majority of the community is leaning one way just because you play however many hours a day doesn't automatically make everyone else wrong.

 

[Chairface_ChipNDale]

When Kotal was revealed I thought that a lot of his gameplan was gonna be centered around getting buffs through the command grab and the totems. I don't understand the reasoning for not putting those 2 things together in a variation and only having one totem in a competitive variation. All totems should have been one selectable move imo

 

[CorneliusBrutus]

When Kotal was revealed I thought that a lot of his gameplan was gonna be centered around getting buffs through the command grab and the totems. I don't understand the reasoning for not putting those 2 things together in a variation and only having one totem in a competitive variation. All totems should have been one selectable move imo

If I had the chance to turn back time and somehow change Kotal from the start, there would be:

• One totem baseline, a mediocre-to-decent one
• A variation ability that is just a "totem package" -- the one decent totem is replaced by two very good ones

 

[Tony at Home]

Just giving me d3 as +10 and fixing the blood totem bug would be a gamechanger for me.

 

[Qwark28]

You can spin shit based on whatever pro Kotal biases you have however you want, but the entire "You haven't put time into him" is an ignorant argument to make. Yes its clear a large portion of your life is dedicated to playing Kotal but no matter how much you play your individual time doesn't outweigh the collective community time played with the character.

Furthermore I never said you were SUPPOSED to counterzone with his projectile. Just that you cant. Simple statement.

Also cat is not a viable counterzoning tool in its current state. Its just not. For you to claim it is shows your lack of knowledge honestly. There are characters who literally can recover from their projectile fast enough to block and punish the enhanced cat after they throw it.

In fact most characters have such a short startup on their projectile that Cat isn't an option on reaction. You have to anticipate in advance. Jumping cat is decent at mid range against some zoning but then again as in almost any fighting game its suicidal to use a divekick as your main anti zoning tool long term.

F24 is fine but you leave out the fact that the F2 has insane startup and is only active for literally 1 frame......

See. You can spin anything anyway you want but when the majority of the community is leaning one way just because you play however many hours a day doesn't automatically make everyone else wrong.

I didn't say cat is a viable counterzoning tool, but I have said before on various media that the divekick is quite useful. Cat itself, not so much at all. And pretty much anyone I've talked to about it, whether on discord, TYM, private PMs, twitter has agreed with this opinion.

F2 has 2 actives, and it's something I've complained about multiple times in the past, I even have a twitch clip of kung lao's divekick going right through it in the thread just below this one.

So let's get this in order. You put words in my mouth, then you say I spend a large portion of my life ( not time ) playing this game, that I'm ignorant, lack knowledge and upplaying, all the while putting words in my mouth, quoting incorrect frame data and arguing a point I never made.

While I play this game more than you do, within reason, travel for offline tournaments and play with high lvl players all the time. Meanwhile, you cry on the forums about how if someone knows the matchup you might as well not even bother playing, and spitefully lash out at anyone saying otherwise, that's literally your entire posting history these 2 months.

I'd implore you to at least apply some basic reading comprehension ( and comprehension in general ) and lay off the insults before you post again. TYM has enough idiots without you overflowing it.

Thanks.

 

[DoctorSexual]

Look I do respect your opinion as a player and member of this community but my post was a perhaps too aggressive response to your repeated jabs at people who "haven't put in work" or aren't entitled to be here if their opinion differs from yours (My interpretation of your words to multiple members here) .

Not everyone who "downplays" Kotal is someone who's played him for 3 matches or 1 week or whatever and gave up.

 

[AK Harold]

True but it's really the players that aren't even willing to play us to figure things out or show footage to help them. If they were genuine in wanting to learn what kotal has to offer I'd think they would take the opportunity to do so instead of incessantly saying he is just bad.

What irks me the most is saying match up discussion is irrelevant, when the is is a fighting game 1v1. Match up knowledge is extremely important. I'm not gonna say Johnny is top tier by any means but I will say he fucks up Geras. Does that make Johnny the best? No but at least you know the character is good there.

Cassie was considered mediocre for a while till we understood she stands pretty even or better against most of the cast too.

 

[JTC]

When Kotal was revealed I thought that a lot of his gameplan was gonna be centered around getting buffs through the command grab and the totems. I don't understand the reasoning for not putting those 2 things together in a variation and only having one totem in a competitive variation. All totems should have been one selectable move imo

The variation system is the biggest offender. It allows the devs to cut corners from creating real actual character design which then is another issue. What sort of character is kotal suppose to be? Is he suppose to be a grappler? Big body doomsday? Zoner? You cant really tell because his moves are all over the place. Whats the point of the fucking cat move? Why is his command grab and launcher not part of his base move? Kotal is the definition of an incomplete character.

Good grief this game frustrates me lol

 

[chief713]

Thanks @Immortal people are overstating how bad he is.

@Moms4lif3 the unblockable is very good on set ups. You can make it unavoidable unless they use meter etc. Also can punish delay wake up. I hit a lot of people in tournament that are aware of this move. They know Im going to do it sometime in a set but don't know when. Once they are aware of the set ups it actually is better. You then get to oki pretty hard at that point.

Agreed. The unblockable feels like the type of move that you should only use every now and then to catch the opp off guard because it's so slow and has such bad recovery. But more and more I've found that it's almost necessary to make them think about it constantly in order to open them up.

That's especially true, as you said, on wakeup. Quake after a non EX cmd grab creates a really obnoxious oki game where pressing buttons or jumping gets you blown up by F24 which can be confirmed into a combo back into the same situation whether it hits grounded or aerial. But blocking, delay wakeup, roll forward and U2/U3 get blown up by unblockable.

It makes F24 more potent too. F2 / F24 quake and F243 open people up to F2/ F24, D1 tick cmd grab or D1 hit confirm cmd grab.

None of this shit is "real" or even particularly good tbh, but it does force action from the opp. And even tho that action can get YOU blown up, you're making them act when you want them to aka controlling the pace.

 

[AK Harold]

I wouldn't F2 F24 quake much tbh as it doesn't cost them anything to escape it
Whereas when you time it against delay wakeup or on setup they have to use a wakeup option using meter or just eat the damage.

 

[chief713]

I agree, and the point of throwing it and F243 isn't so much to hit but to keep it on their mind and try to get just a few frames of hesitation so that F2 / F24 into D1 or normal thorw is more viable. And just to be clear I do think you should block too and not go for gimmicks/disrespect all the time. But with this char, I believe it's necessary to keep that caution light on in your opp's head.

 

[Moms4lif3]

What irks me the most is saying match up discussion is irrelevant, when the is is a fighting game 1v1. Match up knowledge is extremely important. I'm not gonna say Johnny is top tier by any means but I will say he fucks up Geras. Does that make Johnny the best? No but at least you know the character is good there.

Cassie was considered mediocre for a while till we understood she stands pretty even or better against most of the cast too.

Not sure if you’re referring to my post, but I guess I said something about Kotal‘s MU discussion to be kind of irrelevant at the moment.

I am not saying you cannot perform better in certain MUs by playing in a specific manner, at the moment I don’t really see any occasions where kotal can shine, even with specific knowledge. There may be some MUs where really specific knowledge will work in his advantage, but at the moment I feel basically we only have to look out for stuff that does not put us at an even worse disadvantage. For exmaple characters that are prone to low-profiling in general will give kotal an even harder time for sure. So in this MU you will probably use f1 even less than usual.

Cassie is a bad example, she was always considered high tier and is now considered to be one of the best in the game, because she simply is THAT solid. Kotal is kind of the opposite, his stuff is not reliable.

 

[Moms4lif3]

I agree with your general point , MU knowledge is very important especially when a character is not great. I simply do not see it affecting kotal in such a game changing way at the moment, that we need to go into that much detail. I understand if you disagree though.

 

[Moms4lif3]

I wouldn't F2 F24 quake much tbh as it doesn't cost them anything to escape it
Whereas when you time it against delay wakeup or on setup they have to use a wakeup option using meter or just eat the damage.

On wake up it might be a good option, if u mistime it’s a huge punish opportunity though, so it’s always kinda risky I feel...?

 

[AK Harold]

You have to practice it but it has 9 active frames and is extremely easy to meaty

 

[Skylight1]

He is how he is. Not great that's for sure. As for 7-3 MU, im pretty sure Zonya vs Kotal is a 7-3 MU, not sure about Erron but it's probably the same.

Honestly, they are worst than that. Probably one of the few match-ups they get a free 8-2 or even 9-1 (Erron is probably 8-2 while Sonya is 9-1 in her favor, of course.)

 

[Skylight1]

To the extremists that say he is unplayable, have y'all played against a good kotal before?

Honestly curious because that's when I typically understand a characters strength, not the other way around. Again this is just for me and how I learn, but maybe something to consider for others.

I'm a good Kotal but that doesn't mean shit when the only time you win is because your opponent just doesn't know the match-up due to a complete lack of Kotal Khan players. Doesn't matter how good the player is if that character has 0.5/10 of what the vast majority has.