Kotal Kahn General Discussion

[LawAbidingCitizen]

What you said literally doesn't make sense.

22F startup means it comes out at 22F.

And no, 7f starters wouldn't beat it.

+15 into 22f = 7.

-1f unblock = 6.

Even if your one frame after was a thing, a 7f standing starter, which few chars have, would trade.

It's basic math.

edit: Just checked, a bunch of chars have 7f S1 and our F2 has 2 active frames. If the F2 was going to hit at any point, it'd trade. And that's only if it were to hit at the last possible frame.

I assure you I've tested it in practice and it seems easier to beat than jailing from D1. Most characters can jail from D1 with 1 frame link into high. His F2 can be beat out by the high starters and only connects on last to frames after the startup is finished.
Startup is before the hitbox is active and only connects on active frames which activate after startup is finished.
I'm not positive this game takes a frame to block or unblock. Mkx did but this game is different in many ways.

2 frame links are completely possible with practice and when you have a move that us reactible 22+ frames you know it's comming making it much easier to hit those tight links.
I've had this happen several times in sets where F4 is beat out after D4 hits. D4 is also not hit confirmable so there is the possibility of it being blocked.

But you saying it's a 1 or 2 frame link and it's not possible doesn't make it our of opponents favor, it's a tight link for both players. For Kotal to win they would have to press late and same for Kotal if he inputs F2 just 1 frame to late they beat him.

If one to three frame links where to risky noone would flawless block, counter jail from D1s ect.

 

[Qwark28]

I assure you I've tested it in practice and it seems easier to beat than jailing from D1. Most characters can jail from D1 with 1 frame link into high. His F2 can be beat out by the high starters and only connects on last to frames after the startup is finished.
Startup is before the hitbox is active and only connects on active frames which activate after startup is finished.
I'm not positive this game takes a frame to block or unblock. Mkx did but this game is different in many ways.

2 frame links are completely possible with practice and when you have a move that us reactible 22+ frames you know it's comming making it much easier to hit those tight links.
I've had this happen several times in sets where F4 is beat out after D4 hits. D4 is also not hit confirmable so there is the possibility of it being blocked.

But you saying it's a 1 or 2 frame link and it's not possible doesn't make it our of opponents favor, it's a tight link for both players. For Kotal to win they would have to press late and same for Kotal if he inputs F2 just 1 frame to late they beat him.

If one to three frame links where to risky noone would flawless block, counter jail from D1s ect.

Well I am positive, it does take a frame to unblock and you go into the lab right now and test it.

22f is including the 1st active frame. That's how frame data works post-sf4 and 99% of the games abide by that. Startup as a rule is NOT before the hitbox is active, it's in the name. If a 22f move has 2 active frames, it will hit until the 23rd frame, not the 24th, these are basic fighting game rules and terminologies

If your F4 is getting beat after D4, you're making gigantic mistakes in timing, not much else to say, it's +15 to 15f.

So yeah, if you massively fuck up, by 3 whole frames while they're frame perfect, they could hit you out of it, just like most things in the game. Except the entire point is to practice not fucking it up. I haven't had a single example of what you said past week 1, and it wasn't for people not trying.

It's fine if your execution is sloppy and if it's not consistent enough for you personally, but don't go misinforming other people that F2 after D4 is not a good idea based on your own faulty execution. That's like saying don't follow up a D4 on hit with B222 when playing Erron.

 

[AK Harold]

Lol people need to do math. The information is there. If anything it just shows how sloppy execution is around here. Read frames and test vigorously, not just one to ten times. But try a hundred times.

 

[AK Harold]

More constructively, take the L and listen to the dude that's probably been playing 5 times more and against consistent good players. So much information is coming from ranked play online etc.

 

[Qwark28]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1125447913935646721

Digging into it, a poster found this. Apparently MK11 doesn't have the unblock, and is I think the only game of this and the previous generation not include active frames into its startup.

Which changes some scenarios in my head, but ultimately means nothing on D4 to F2, since you'd need to be off by 2 frames and they'd need to be frame perfect, on a move which they'd need to know the frame perfect hitstun.

On top of that you add that the average active frames of S1 is 2, you'd need to be very specifically not too early and not too late in order to get interrupted, meaning that even if you fucked up badly, you'd still win, you'd have to fuck up in just the right way for them to even get a chance to perfectly hit you out of it.

Basic fg concepts/math, but reitterating in case this becomes a thing again based on the above tweet.

 

[LawAbidingCitizen]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1125447913935646721

Digging into it, a poster found this. Apparently MK11 doesn't have the unblock, and is I think the only game of this and the previous generation not include active frames into its startup.

Which changes some scenarios in my head, but ultimately means nothing on D4 to F2, since you'd need to be off by 2 frames and they'd need to be frame perfect, on a move which they'd need to know the frame perfect hitstun.

On top of that you add that the average active frames of S1 is 2, you'd need to be very specifically not too early and not too late in order to get interrupted, meaning that even if you fucked up badly, you'd still win, you'd have to fuck up in just the right way for them to even get a chance to perfectly hit you out of it.

Basic fg concepts/math, but reitterating in case this becomes a thing again based on the above tweet.

So basically everything I said was right. Maybe check with the other things I said. Anyways I prefer F34 and F4 I stead of F2 because of it only activating at last part of animation. F2 and F24 put Kotal point blank in thier face on crouch block exactly where he doesn't want to be imo.
If you find F2 after D4 consistent then by all means go for it. I'll assume it can't be poked out, now they block (most likely) and Kotal is in thier face with limited options due to hitbox issues. He can't D1 as counter poke and can't tick from D1.

You know what, every time I talk around you, I end up in an argument. I have no interest in continuing this debate. Have a nice day.

 

[Qwark28]

So basically everything I said was right. Maybe check with the other things I said. Anyways I prefer F34 and F4 I stead of F2 because of it only activating at last part of animation. F2 and F24 put Kotal point blank in thier face on crouch block exactly where he doesn't want to be imo.
If you find F2 after D4 consistent then by all means go for it. I'll assume it can't be poked out, now they block (most likely) and Kotal is in thier face with limited options due to hitbox issues. He can't D1 as counter poke and can't tick from D1.

You know what, every time I talk around you, I end up in an argument. I have no interest in continuing this debate. Have a nice day.

It's probably because you're constantly saying things like "if you don't like -4 D1 fests you're a scrub" "Don't F2 after D4 on hit because it's interruptible" and "They block after D4 to F2 so you're in a bad position". Literally the first thing you do is theory craft about how it puts you in a bad position after finding out you do it wrong yourself.

It's ok to have whack takes or be in cognitive dissonance city or not understand fighting game concepts. Just don't actively present them as facts and constantly misinform others.

Same to you.

 

[LawAbidingCitizen]

It's probably because you're constantly saying things like "if you don't like -4 D1 fests you're a scrub" "Don't F2 after D4 on hit because it's interruptible" and "They block after D4 to F2 so you're in a bad position". Literally the first thing you do is theory craft about how it puts you in a bad position after finding out you do it wrong yourself.

It's ok to have whack takes or be in cognitive dissonance city or not understand fighting game concepts. Just don't actively present them as facts and constantly misinform others.

Same to you.

I thought no it has more to do with you not being capable of accepting other have different opinions than yourself and that you act like an elitist (soap bar in my mouth). Just because you play sets with Nivek or any other high level player, doesn't make everything you say golden. Take a look at the posts above. I stated there is no frame to unblock on MK and there is no active frames during startup and you where less than nice saying I was wrong and said you where positive. Despite me being correct about both those which clearly effect the situation and frame data you come back with im wrong even though everything you said was incorrect.
I'll leave it here, I've played sets with players who poked out of it but think what you want and play how you want for all I care.

 

[GetEmStretch]

I thought no it has more to do with you not being capable of accepting other have different opinions than yourself and that you act like an elitist (soap bar in my mouth). Just because you play sets with Nivek or any other high level player, doesn't make everything you say golden. Take a look at the posts above. I stated there is no frame to unblock on MK and there is no active frames during startup and you where less than nice saying I was wrong and said you where positive. Despite me being correct about both those which clearly effect the situation and frame data you come back with im wrong even though everything you said was incorrect.
I'll leave it here, I've played sets with players who poked out of it but think what you want and play how you want for all I care.

Literally everything you said here is spot on. For some reason a lot of posters have this elitist vibe about them across the forums. So much self absorption that when they have been proven wrong they still try and discredit the perspective of others. Fuck em

 

[AK Harold]

No, you guys are misunderstanding what dizzy is saying, read it again. It is still the same result. . .

F2 hits on 23 frame
S1 hits on 8 frame
15bframe difference
-15 is means it will hit on same frame IF they commit to hitting s1 on first available frame which would insta lose to dash f4 or f3. Same math different understanding of how the frames are applied. The hesitation as a defender will favor you in this scenario because the risk is a lot higher for the defender.

And yes we should all be nicer to each other as kotal players, but it is a lot easier to do so in a live conversation.

 

[Morgan the pilgrim]

Saw something interesting on youtube. Apperently if u have two types of totems ,lets say dmg. amp. and dmg. red. ones, and u stack them ul get bonuses as if both are lvl 3 . Like 1 dmg and 2 dmg. reduction totems will give u the buffs as if both were lvl 3. Currently not very usefull but might come in handy if they ever make a variation with 2 totems or ur playing some custom variations.

 

[Jeffrey Wolf]

@LawAbidingCitizen, thanks for putting in the time to lab and post. And, hopefully, yes, moving forward people will be inspired to keep the conversation on the more constructive side of things.

@Morgan the pilgrim, thank you also for the info about totems. Didn't realize that, and, fingers crossed, it will be useful down the road.

Speaking of totems, I know there has been some debate about the blood totem, so I recently did some digging with a fellow Kotal player. Here's the breakdown:

Put out totem --> Hit the opponent --> Get life

Put out totem --> Hit the opponent --> Opponent hits you or you tech a grab --> Get no life

Put out totem --> Opponent hits you or you tech a throw --> Hit the opponent --> Get life

Put out totem --> Hit the opponent --> Opponent hits you --> Hit the opponent --> Get life off your hit after the opponent hit you not before

So, basically, it's like the old blood totem that stopped working after you got hit. But instead, it stays out, giving you another chance to get life from it without needing to resummon.

This also means that once you do get a hit, it's very important that you summon another totem to cash out the life you have gotten, because as soon as you get hit, it all goes away.

It sucks that teching a throw counts as a hit, but thankfully, blocking has nothing to do with it. You can be blocking when the totem expires and still get life back.

Hopes this helps fellow Kotal players level up, as goodness knows we need all the tech we can get.

 

[Morgan the pilgrim]

Like u can , if u have Kahn cut and command grab , summon totem for free if u amp command grab at the end , i think that dmg totem is the safest. Dmg. reduction totem is the slowest one, i think, BUT ul get 50% dmg reduction off of a SINGLE one .U can also summon totem/sun ray after B22 but its a lil bit risky.

 

[RYX]

do u guys ever use the unblockable move

 

[Morgan the pilgrim]

do u guys ever use the unblockable move

Yup but u need to condition enemy hard with F24/F243 and B22/B223. Il use it sometimes on a enemy that i just threw or command grabed cuz it will leave them in a just enough range for the tip of ur DB4 to hit . Take this with a grain of salt cuz im not playing vs high tier oponents (its punishable as hell).

 

[LawAbidingCitizen]

do u guys ever use the unblockable move

I do but not against competitive players on sets.
It has a 41f startup so it's very reactable, every player can react to 22f so it's pretty bad in that aspect.
So what I mostly did to mitigate that was use it at max range, but be careful because any character can jump towards Kotal during the unblockable and full combo punish with any starter cuz it has very bad Recovery as well. It also takes a while for the amped overhead to come out but if that's blocked after jumping the unblockable it's also punishable.
Best way to use Quake(unblockable):
is by conditioning them with F34 and canceling into it from F3 xx DB4 but it's still unsafe but less unsafe when you hit with F3 reducing 41f by 15f so it makes it 26f they can punish it if they are ready to. Good players will but if you wanna use it I think that is the best way along with max range Quake. I generally only use it online and test the waters at max range and abuse it if they are not familiar with how to counter it on reaction.

 

[GetEmStretch]

Yup but u need to condition enemy hard with F24/F243 and B22/B223. Il use it sometimes on a enemy that i just threw or command grabed cuz it will leave them in a just enough range for the tip of ur DB4 to hit . Take this with a grain of salt cuz im not playing vs high tier oponents (its punishable as hell).

Guys if you really want to use the unblockable (quake)in the Ascension variation, your best bet is to end your combos early with Kahn cut with no follow up. Kahn cut gives a hit Advantage of 40 frames while Quake (unblockable) is 41 frames. This beats out "most" Getup attacks with the exception of Geras U2 and Shao Kahns U3 because it leaves you outside of those ranges. To avoid the previous 2, you'd have to step back a bit but just know you are losing a few of those frames. Delayed Getup will mitigate this but meter burning the overhead should put you at safe range. Havent explored all the cast but Sub Zero cant slide. I'll need to test against teleport characters when I'm sober. You can also cut your combos short with D2 if you want a lil extra damage. However D2 gives you only 30 hit advantage so dont use it against cast that have advancing strings. Nonetheless it is purely situational, but very useful as closing rounds/matches. The D2 option is extremely useful against those that "fallout" of combos as they still take the damage. This also prevents you from being punished on a follow up string after Kahn Cut especially F122 or F1 command grab. Test it out for yourselves...

 

[chief713]

Didn't see Kotal do any dmg at Combo Breaker

 

[Morgan the pilgrim]

Didn't see Kotal do any dmg at Combo Breaker

Thing is , even tho he is not the best of the characters , if u drop 4 popups thats totaly on u (the player).

 

[KotalKahnIsTrueKahn]

Didn't see Kotal do any dmg at Combo Breaker

The guy kept dropping his combos.

 

[chief713]

Thing is , even tho he is not the best of the characters , if u drop 4 popups thats totaly on u (the player).

I didn't even know someone played him on stream. I only saw Mr Aquaman's Kotal during the 10v10 and he got super washed

 

[Kavereus]

Kotal is a badass in this game. I never tried him before but his moves are really cool.

 

[Morgan the pilgrim]

Btw , wanted to let u know that defensive totem was nerfed silently , now provides 20% dmg reduction per stack up to 60% .It was 50% for the first totem and 10% per aditional stacks.For dmg totem (maybe im wrong but i think its buffed) , 20% dmg increase per stack up to 60%(i think it was 10% or 15% per totem) . For blood totem 37.5% heal for first totem, 75% for 2 and 112.5% for all 3. Before it was 40% 80% 120%. And for the last CG lvl 1 buff is 10% , lvl 2 is 25% and lvl 3 is 33% dmg increase. As for the cd buff is ticking down from lvl 3 to 2 to 1 to 0 NOT from 3 straight to 0 in the same time span.

 

[Morgan the pilgrim]

Also CG buff will increase the dmg u do from the totems aswell. To sum it up 60%+30% = 90% BUT ur combo deals 108% more dmg.

 

[Chairface_ChipNDale]

Why do I get punished for landing a KB by having my totem(s) and/or God ray disappear? I also think that sword cut should result in a pop up when amplified. It would really help totemic kotal